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Canyon as a company sucks. Beware.

Old 07-16-19, 01:31 PM
  #51  
smarkinson
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  • VAT reimbursement is a voluntary service provided by Canyon. No legal claim exists to this service.
  • VAT reimbursement is only possible on orders to Germany, Belgium, Italy, Austria, Denmark or the Netherlands. For the Netherlands, you have to follow a special procedure – please contact our partner in the Netherlands in advance.
https://www.canyon.com/en-mu/customer-service/faq/ Sounds like OP should have got the bike delivered to Germany and unfortunately received some misleading advice from Canyon staff who probably weren't as informed as they should have been.

Last edited by smarkinson; 07-16-19 at 09:25 PM.
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Old 07-16-19, 01:37 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by tagaproject6 View Post
Yeah, how dare those possibly rich people on the internet complaining about paying more not being able to pay less.
fify

Originally Posted by jadocs View Post
Implying that the OP is somehow less worthy because of his finances and where he chooses to live is very liberal I must say.
Contextual comprehension is key - my comment was in regards to his complaints of limited buying options in India with the implication that delivery during international vacation was virtually his only option. That's not a terribly compelling "woe is me" story.

Further, the website FAQ clearly state:

  • VAT reimbursement is a voluntary service provided by Canyon. No legal claim exists to this service.
  • VAT reimbursement is only possible on orders to Germany, Belgium, Italy, Austria, Denmark or the Netherlands.
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Old 07-16-19, 01:45 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
OK that broke me up
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Old 07-16-19, 02:23 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by smarkinson View Post
  • VAT reimbursement is a voluntary service provided by Canyon. No legal claim exists to this service.
  • VAT reimbursement is only possible on orders to Germany, Belgium, Italy, Austria, Denmark or the Netherlands. For the Netherlands, you have to follow a special procedure please contact our partner in the Netherlands in advance.
https://www.canyon.com/en-mu/custome...ice/faq/Sounds like OP should have got the bike delivered to Germany and unfortunately received some misleading advice from Canyon staff who probably weren't as informed as they should have been.
Right. So the issue is that a VAT refund isn't possible in the OP's situation because of the VAT-refund rules (France isn't a country he could send the bike to).

So, Canyon has a rep who provided inaccurate information that is inconsistent with its stated policies/guidance on its website. So the question is whether Canyon should as a matter of goodwill credit back an amount equal to the paid VAT amount based on the rep's inaccurate statements or adhere to its stated policies. I don't think there's a legal claim here, given what the website says, but I'm not a German or French lawyer. I have no idea where OP's credit card is from and what rules apply.
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Old 07-16-19, 03:52 PM
  #55  
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Venting is thought to be good for those who feel they've been mistreated. It doesn't matter whether the mistreatment is real or imaginary. They feel better having vented. BF in their wisdom corral the vents in this remote area. Thanks BF!
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Old 07-16-19, 06:15 PM
  #56  
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The correct answer should have been "we think you can get a refund but check yourself".
The correct question should have been "where can I find out about tax refunds?".
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Old 07-16-19, 06:55 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by drewguy View Post
Right. So the issue is that a VAT refund isn't possible in the OP's situation because of the VAT-refund rules (France isn't a country he could send the bike to).

So, Canyon has a rep who provided inaccurate information that is inconsistent with its stated policies/guidance on its website. So the question is whether Canyon should as a matter of goodwill credit back an amount equal to the paid VAT amount based on the rep's inaccurate statements or adhere to its stated policies. I don't think there's a legal claim here, given what the website says, but I'm not a German or French lawyer. I have no idea where OP's credit card is from and what rules apply.
What a mess.

Apparently the OP was aware of the notes on the web page, but had also talked to employees of the company (with an electronic paper trail). In particular with respect to a payment from India.

Talking to employees should trump the general notes on the web page, especially when there was further clarification such as the India/Germany credit card transaction.

In fact, one should be able to argue that this was a German/India transaction, and there was no business transaction in France, but rather simply an intermediate destination, much as if I shipped my bicycle that I own in the USA to France, rode it in France, then returned with it to the USA. Or, any interaction in France would be limited to the final setup & configuration of the bike.

@deepakvrao, was the bike shipped to a CANYON authorized bike shop in France, or was it shipped to an unattached 3rd party such as a hotel? Did any money exchange occur in France? Payments?
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Old 07-17-19, 01:15 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Talking to employees should trump the general notes on the web page, especially when there was further clarification
This is right. If the company won't back specific repeated assurances or promises made by their employees, any information you receive from any employee of the company cannot be trusted. *None of it.*

I'm in the market for a new bike. I've thought about buying one of their bikes. I was already on alert because Canyon's new trainer ads violate their own warranty. This new incident puts the company on my no-buy list.

In addition to working with your credit card company, I'd probably post to twitter. Companies nowadays monitor social media more than they would an obscure feedback forum. I'd probably emphasize that the company will not back up *any* promise made by *any* customer service employee.

Last edited by RChung; 07-17-19 at 01:34 AM.
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Old 07-17-19, 02:35 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by smarkinson View Post
  • VAT reimbursement is a voluntary service provided by Canyon. No legal claim exists to this service.
  • VAT reimbursement is only possible on orders to Germany, Belgium, Italy, Austria, Denmark or the Netherlands. For the Netherlands, you have to follow a special procedure – please contact our partner in the Netherlands in advance.
https://www.canyon.com/en-mu/customer-service/faq/ Sounds like OP should have got the bike delivered to Germany and unfortunately received some misleading advice from Canyon staff who probably weren't as informed as they should have been.
Yes, but more than one mail which told me that shipping to France should be OK? Then they have to get their act together.

Originally Posted by znomit View Post
The correct answer should have been "we think you can get a refund but check yourself".
The correct question should have been "where can I find out about tax refunds?".
Nope. You obviously have no clue how VAT refunds work in the EU. It is upto the retailer to decide to participate or not. Every item bought by a foreigner and taken out within a specified period of time is entitled to a VAT refund. Applicable to goods, and not services. Obviously.

Tell me, do you know anything about VAT refund, or did you just jump in to give an uninformed opinion?

Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
What a mess.

Apparently the OP was aware of the notes on the web page, but had also talked to employees of the company (with an electronic paper trail). In particular with respect to a payment from India.

Talking to employees should trump the general notes on the web page, especially when there was further clarification such as the India/Germany credit card transaction.

In fact, one should be able to argue that this was a German/India transaction, and there was no business transaction in France, but rather simply an intermediate destination, much as if I shipped my bicycle that I own in the USA to France, rode it in France, then returned with it to the USA. Or, any interaction in France would be limited to the final setup & configuration of the bike.

@deepakvrao, was the bike shipped to a CANYON authorized bike shop in France, or was it shipped to an unattached 3rd party such as a hotel? Did any money exchange occur in France? Payments?
Shipped to my rental cottage. Payment from India to Germany. Just like how I get VAT refunds from other German companies, including when I have had items shipped to France, Italy, Spain etc.

Originally Posted by RChung View Post
This is right. If the company won't back specific repeated assurances or promises made by their employees, any information you receive from any employee of the company cannot be trusted. *None of it.*

I'm in the market for a new bike. I've thought about buying one of their bikes. I was already on alert because Canyon's new trainer ads violate their own warranty. This new incident puts the company on my no-buy list.

In addition to working with your credit card company, I'd probably post to twitter. Companies nowadays monitor social media more than they would an obscure feedback forum. I'd probably emphasize that the company will not back up *any* promise made by *any* customer service employee.
Good. If I cost them even one sale, this thread is worth it.
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Old 07-17-19, 02:40 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by deepakvrao View Post
...
Jesus, if you spent half the time working to get your VAT returned, as you have in this thread, you'd have enough time left over to ride a century or two.
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Old 07-17-19, 02:40 AM
  #61  
deepakvrao
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
fify



Contextual comprehension is key - my comment was in regards to his complaints of limited buying options in India with the implication that delivery during international vacation was virtually his only option. That's not a terribly compelling "woe is me" story.

Further, the website FAQ clearly state:

1. Forget the 'woe is me'. Tell me what you would do if a company promised you in writing, say, a 700 dollar discount and backtracked later?
2. Yes, and because of the website, I asked them thrice whether France wold be OK. I think I could not have done more to stay safe.

Also, if they had given me the right info, I was in Germany the next month. Would have just delayed the order.
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Old 07-17-19, 02:43 AM
  #62  
deepakvrao
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Originally Posted by WhyFi View Post
Isn't the OP and English-speaking doctor? That tends to open a few doors.
This is besides the point, but no. It does not. Maybe 30 years ago, but not now. And, again, besides the point here, but I did have an opportunity to shift to the US about 30 years ago. Retrospectively thinking, I probably should have taken it, but thats an all together another story.

Originally Posted by PepeM View Post
Moving to other countries might be easy for Americans (or not, I don't know) but for us "backwater" folks it is pretty darn complicated.
Yup.
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Old 07-17-19, 02:45 AM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by ridelikeaturtle View Post
Jesus, if you spent half the time working to get your VAT returned, as you have in this thread, you'd have enough time left over to ride a century or two.
Oh, and I thought forums were created for us to faff and waste time
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Old 07-17-19, 03:30 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by deepakvrao View Post
Nope. You obviously have no clue how VAT refunds work in the EU. It is upto the retailer to decide to participate or .
Tell me, do you know anything about VAT refund, or did you just jump in to give an uninformed opinion?
My bad. I have used the Australian system a few times which is quite simple and done at the airport. The hard part is finding the counter between passport control and security, especially after the pre flight beers.
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Old 07-17-19, 06:31 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by deepakvrao View Post
1. Forget the 'woe is me'. Tell me what you would do if a company promised you in writing, say, a 700 dollar discount and backtracked later?
2. Yes, and because of the website, I asked them thrice whether France wold be OK. I think I could not have done more to stay safe.

Also, if they had given me the right info, I was in Germany the next month. Would have just delayed the order.
I wouldn't have asked in the first place. Their website doesn't mince words when it comes to their VAT policy, so I'm going to trust that that was written with oversight, as opposed to CSRs, who are the lowest folks in the pecking order (if they're even within their corporate structure as opposed to being farmed out, which is becoming increasingly common).
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Old 07-18-19, 02:58 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by deepakvrao View Post
Nope. You obviously have no clue how VAT refunds work in the EU. It is upto the retailer to decide to participate or not.Every item bought by a foreigner and taken out within a specified period of time is entitled to a VAT refund. Applicable to goods, and not services. Obviously.
Neither do you apparently.

Guide to VAT refund for visitors to the EU - ec.europa.eu

Can all goods be bought VAT-free?

No. There are some goods that do not qualify. The facility is intended for goods that could in principle be carried in personal luggage. Goods that have to be exported as freight, for example, and cars and yachts are excluded. Some countries may also exclude other categories of goods.
Do I have to leave the EU straight away from the country where I purchased goods?

No. You can buy VAT-free goods even if you are going to be visiting other EU countries before you finally return home, as long as you actually leave the EU with the goods within the time limit. You have to get your documents stamped by a customs officer at the point of exit of the EU – not necessary in the same EU country where you bought it.
Lots of good info in the link above and maybe even a way to still get the refund.

IF, however you shipped the bike out by mail instead of on the plane ride home you might be out of luck. That's not how VAT reimbursements work in Europe.
You would have been better off contacting National tax authorities. They would have the authority to be able to give you the final answer and actually have people trained in this matter.
Hell, send them a message on Instagram and they will likely be able to answer you quickly enough.

I'm still left with a few questions though:
  1. What kind of address did you ship to in France? A Hotel, home address?
  2. How long did you stay in Europe?
  3. How many months after Canyon shipped the bike did it leave Europe?

Last edited by JaccoW; 07-18-19 at 03:04 AM.
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Old 07-18-19, 06:32 AM
  #67  
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Been in retail for close to 1/2 a century. Recently had a supplier's rep cost me $500.00. When I brought this to the CEOs attention with documentation he immediately issued a $500.00 credit on my account. This is how a RESPONSIBLE company handles things. Sorry this isn't a "tax" issue, it's a credibility issue. OP was given false information by company rep. Made a purchase based (or partially) based on that information. This is an easy CC dispute the OP can win. Now the "win" might be a return for full refund if Canyon will not cough up the promised VAT tax reimbursement out of their profit. Very sure they netted more than that on the sale. No brainer for a well run company. Based on this thread have no interest in doing any business with Canyon.
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Old 07-25-19, 01:59 PM
  #68  
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I am surprised and disappointed at the hostile responses.

Deepak is not evading tax, he is minimizing his tax payments. You seem to be unaware that Indians have the pleasure of paying a customs duty ranging from 40% to 50% of cost of (bike + shipping).

Deepak: As suggested, file a dispute with the payment processor and contact the German Embassy in India for alternatives. Leaving a negative feedback at Trusted Shops | seal of approval, seller rating and buyer protection for online shops may help.
Germany also has effective consumer forums and filing a dispute should help. Google.

Btw, tourists are out of luck with respect to sales tax. No refund.
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Old 08-06-19, 10:36 AM
  #69  
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OP did nothing wrong.

He did his due diligence, asked the right questions, and if the company - who is responsible for processing VAT refunds - gives him wrong information, they should stick to their word and own their mistake.

OP executed a transaction with a company and asked them the right questions, and that company should have been able to provide him the correct information, and failed to do so - on multiple occasions. The onus is on Canyon to provide correct information about purchases from Canyon, including tax implications for those purposes. VAT is nothing new, and they should have full understanding of this, being a European company.

It's not OP who should hold the bag because yet more idiots in the world can't do their god-damn job right, which is exactly what happened and exactly why OP is in this situation.

Canyon deserves to be put on blast for this. I'm sure they did absolutely nothing with the employees who told him wrong information, they are probably telling other people the same wrong crap. If I had a company, and we told someone the wrong thing that cost them $700, it wouldn't even for a second ever cross my mind to do anything other than process that refund immediately and own my own mistake.

Last edited by puma1552; 08-06-19 at 08:18 PM.
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