MikeyMK

I hit a squirrel the other day, caught it good.

They're very playful around here, always come out and try to get your attention. This little fella was coming at me on the path, looking from side to side rapidly. I had to trust he'd dart out the way in time. They usually do.
I think he timed it wrong, found himself on the wrong side, i dunno. I was going quicker than he was expecting, i recon. It was quite a thump through the front wheel, then again through the rear one.. I looked back, and he ran off into the hedges. But he must've been hurt. Despite full suspension and balloon tyres, my bike weighs 100 lbs on it's own, with a heavy rear hub motor.

Dangerous, though? Not for me.

02Giant 

Riding a tank does help.

livedarklions

So is claiming that unpredictable drivers on the road are less of a problem than unpredictable pedestrians on a mup. I ride a lot on both, I know which group has come pretty close to killing me, and it's not the pedestrians. Just for example, I've had two incidents where drivers have swerved into the breakdown lane from behind me-- there's nothing a pedestrian could do that remotely compares to that.

I-Like-To-Bike

Please clarify. Did the drivers swerve into the breakdown lane in order to pass you on the right while you were bicycle riding in the traffic lane, or was it something else?

livedarklions

Two different events, two different situations. In both of them, I was riding in the very wide breakdown lane on a 55 mph state road. The first time, a car behind me changed lanes illegally behind me to start driving very fast in the breakdown lane. He was bearing down on me very fast, and I had a big ditch to the right of me and a traffic lane going 55 mph to the left of me, so getting out of his way really wasn't an option. I turned my head because I could hear him, and he was looking directly at my direction without any sign of slowing down. At this point, he's about 10 feet behind me having closed quite a bit of distance and I'm now pretty sure I'm dealing with a crazy person intent on killing me, but then he seems to realize for the first time that I'm there, swerves into the traffic lane passes me, then returns to the breakdown lane and pulls into the driveway about 50 feet in front of me.

Second time, same road different place. Car takes a left turn from a side road on the other side of the highway which I think nothing of because I'm firmly in the breakdown lane. Inexplicably, the driver did not turn into either traffic lane (there were two) but instead proceeded to cross them in order to drive on the breakdown lane. I am literally right in front of the van as they are making the turn, but luckily going just fast enough that they actually entered the lane a few inches (I'm not exaggerating) in front of me. I really couldn't turn where I was, so I just started screaming. Apparently that did the trick because the driver swerved to the left quite abruptly and avoided the collision. Again, the driver reentered the breakdown lane to take a right turn on a side street.

In both cases, the drivers were illegally employing the breakdown lane as a turn lane, and just assumed no one was there, obviously visible cyclist right in front of them to the contrary. Both incidents were clear daylight, wearing bright yellow clothes. Good luck trying to make either one sound like I invited it.

I don't ride in traffic lanes on 55 mph roads, and most of this breakdown lane actually has a rumble strip protecting it. These two just picked the places without rumble strips.

bbbean 

Putting aside the fact that I didn't claim what you suggest, the simple fact is that drivers are more predictable and uniform in their behavior than pedestrians, children, pets, and casual cyclists.

Spend 30 minutes watching any busy street you choose. Notice that the uniform behavior of motorists is what makes traffic flow. The vast majority of drivers tend to stay on their side of the road, travel at a uniform speed, pull off the road to stop, and generally seem at least somewhat aware that they are not on the road by themselves. Contract that observation with a similar period of time on a busy MUP, where you will see dogs on leashes running in random directions, people walking, running, and riding on the wrong side of the path, people stopping unexpectedly and without checking or signaling, people moving at a very wide variety of speeds, etc.

Doge

Where I live, they are all over often with a surf board and skaggs facing out. They are already going illegal (there is a legal limit) speeds and are pretty high risk. I expect they will be shut down in a couple years. San Diego is loading up the share scooters and making the companies pay to get them back. They are supposed to be geo-fenced and often are not. Some were shut down because they would go too fast.

They are somewhat predictable. The walker with surf boards are less so. They will walk two by two up the trail with boards under arms. If you say something like "on your left" they may turn board 90 left and look. They may do that anyway. A few time I have slapped the board out of my face. It makes everyone angry, but better some emotion than board-in-face.

livedarklions

Which is why MUPs have so many traffic jams while city streets and highways flow so freely at rush hour. Seriously? As a driver, pedestrian and cyclist, I see drivers do random traffic impeding, dangerous crap all the time. Just yesterday, I had a driver run a red arrow to turn directly into the lane I was occupying going the other way. Looked at me the entire time she was doing it, too.

Besides, OP wasn't about pedestrians on MUPs but was about pedestrians on roads. There's absolutely no comparison as to whose poor road behavior imposes the highest costs on others--hint, it's not pedestrians, cyclists or even scooter riders. I can drive for days without seeing a pedestrian do something stupid in the road. I generally see at least one incident of red light running, blind entering of the road or just plain reckless speeding by drivers every hour that I drive.

MUPs and sidewalks are less regulated than roads because things generally happen a bit more slowly than in the road, and don't involve 1000 pound pieces of hurtling metal. You're probably pretty unpredictable when you're walking around your living room, too, but ignoring the context is pretty silly.

Next time you sit in a long traffic jam waiting for the crashed vehicles that are blocking the lanes to be cleared, tell me about how much more predictable drivers are, okay?

dkatz1

I don't know that they're "more" dangerous, but they certainly are and can be dangerous. Very dangerous.
My worst fall was caused, on a path, by a jogger, who i was moving slowly behind, getting ready to pass. Suddenly, she abrputly stopped and turned into the left side of the path. And in effort to not hit her, and I didn't: I went down. Cost me some blood. "You should be more careful on this crowded path" I told her, and she started yelling at me.
However, in Boston, anyway, in the neighborhood (Backy bay at mass ave and bolyston) that I ride to, and then walk around a lot, that has bike lanes, i see lots of cyclists with a total disregard for pedestrians. And bikes can be very dangerous to pedestrians. There's been a lot of complaints about this, and the cyclists who do this deserve to be called. Yes, scooters and motorized skate boards can be a real threat too.

dkatz1

Cyclists HAVE killed pedestrians.

Maitreya

When riding in the streets (not in the bike paths, sometimes even in the bike paths) expect the unexpected. Most Pedestrians think they have the right of way (some even Jaywalk in the street). Cars and bicycles are nuisance to them.

bbbean 

Moving goalposts! My favorite internet debate tactic.

My point was about predictability. Drivers are more predictable than pedestrians, children, dogs, and casual cyclists. In point of fact, a traffic jam is VERY predictable. All those cars lined up in lanes going the same direction at the same speed trying to get around the same obstruction.

sunburst

I did not read many of the responses, but this thread gives me a chance to kvetch about my own incident. I was in a bike lane on a fairly quiet road. I looked to the left at some houses and when I returned to look straight a pedestrian had stepped off the sidewalk directly into the bike lane/street without looking. If I had been in a car she would probably be dead. I remember thinking, in the half second before I hit her, that "this is going to hurt her worse than me!", given my momentum relative to hers. Anyway, we both went down hard, and I came up semi-swearing while she made her exit as fast as possible, I assume to avoid any liability.

That's all folks ...

I-Like-To-Bike

The pedestrian stepped off the sidewalk into the path of a bicyclist who admits he wasn't looking where he was going just prior to colliding with said pedestrian, and you think she may have been worried about liability and you are blameless?

Be glad she was not seriously injured and sought compensation from you due to your negligent cycling.

livedarklions

Nope, the goalpost didn't move, the ball going through it flew over your head. You missed the part about why the obstruction occurred. If cars are so predictable, why do they hit each other so often?

bbbean 

You mean the tens of thousands of cars flowing past the two that collided? The exception does not disprove the rule.

Have a great day. You stick to the MUP and enjoy all those predictable pedestrians, children, pets, and casual cyclists.

sunburst

Dude, I was in my lane. She cross-walked into me so suddenly that I would have hit her anyway. You may see it differently, but no need to be an ass about it.

livedarklions

I don't "stick" to anything. I probably do more road biking than you. I also do a lot of MUP riding on stretches of my weekly double centuries. There's simply no comparison between the hazards posed by unpredictable drivers vs. unpredictable toddlers, and MUPs weren't the subject of the OP anyway. You're the one who moved the goalposts.

And fender benders are hardly an exceptional circumstance--they happen all the time because two drivers decide to have their cars occupy the same space. I've almost never seen a pedestrian cause anything resembling a serious delay on a road, and delays on MUPs are matters of seconds, not hours.

I'd wish you to stick to your "drivers are predictable" fantasy, but seriously, keep your guard up. Drivers screw up a lot.

I-Like-To-Bike

While you were speculating about possible injuries did you bother to apply brakes or take any other accident avoidance measure? She was in your lane! OMG, knock her down, why not?

Your rant sounds like the "Uber method/defense" used previously for justifying hitting wayward pedestrians in the way even if her presence would be obvious to anyone looking where he was going. You are the individual who chose to be inattentive while riding, so much so that you ran right into a pedestrian standing in front of you. You further chose to swear at the victim of your inattention despite suspecting possible injuries and later to project all responsibility for the collision on to her.

Lightning Pilot

It seems to me that the answer is simple. Whether they are driving, walking, riding, whatever, people are obliviots (oblivious idiots) some of the time, some more often than others. This problem varies from place to place, culture to culture, and from one person to another. This is because few people have been taught, or learned on their own, to be constantly vigilant and relaxed simultaneously. Even if you are that way, sooner or later someone else's obliviousness will be too great for your vigilance to overcome, or will coincide with your momentary obliviousness. "It is the threat you don't see that kills you." Unfortunately, this applies to the jaywalker, the person who crosses the street without looking when they are in a crosswalk, the distracted driver, etc.

I watch the people around where I live. Almost none of them look before stepping out into the street, crossing or not. The same applies to bike paths. Interestingly, the ones who most often (still infrequent) do look where they are going are the kids.

Now, I'm going to sit back and

Metieval

drivers are people
cyclist are people
pedestrians are people


people are DANGEROUS!

Lightning Pilot

I think you have summed it up quite succinctly. Unfortunately, while absolutely true, all too many people are "uncomfortable" with the idea.

sumgy

Scooter danger hysteria is real.
The biggest barrier to bettr transport outcomes is the hysteria being created by our press and our Governments about the imminent perceived dangers that these vehicle create (vs the actual dangers of motor vehicles).
It makes me laugh that people have a fear of scooters maybe doing 25-30kmh when the cars on the road a metre away are doing 50-60kmh minimum.
And before you say it, yes those motor vehicles can, and often do mount the gutter and plow through pedestrians.

sumgy

Jaywalking is a term created by the motoring lobby when it successfully took over our public streets.
Motorists and other road users must Give Way to pedestrians where I am from.
So pedestrians actually DO have right of way.

livedarklions

Because it's misleading and simplistic? Drivers are people operating machines that can crush and dismember people. That inherently makes their actions more dangerous than those of cyclists and pedestrians.