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Dura ace hub scratchy and catching or just me?

Old 09-07-20, 10:15 AM
  #1  
Contigo
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Dura ace hub scratchy and catching or just me?

I recently was checking my hubs, dura ace 7700, and found that the rear hub has a slight catching sensation when I let the wheel rotate while holding it in my hands. I immediately feared that a cone was shot, although I've felt pitted cones in the past and this was nowhere near as grinding as that can be.

When I got everything apart and cleaned up, the cones and cups looked fine. Hubs have about 5,000 miles, and I've been maintaining cup and cone bearings for years with no problems. I first rebuilt these hubs at about 4,000 miles, with new grade 25 BBs. Not ridden in the rain.

I regreased everything and reassembled with the same bearings. Now I feel the same small catch or tug when rotating. It doesn't catch at the same position during rotation but seems random. Happens the same whether adjusted for zero play or just a tiny bit of play.

Is this anything to worry about? Don't want to ignore this and let things go south but I have no idea what is causing it.
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Old 09-07-20, 10:24 AM
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Nevermind







...

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Old 09-07-20, 10:29 AM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
Online guess-athon solution? you taken the axle out & looked at the races condition?
Uh, read above. I thought I provided all relevant information that I could think of.

Have I given offense somehow?
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Old 09-07-20, 10:42 AM
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They come set up perfectly from shimano.
You can never get them perfect again after you open them
If you can only feel it in your hand and not on the bike don't worry about it.
Was there any need to service them?
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Old 09-07-20, 10:50 AM
  #5  
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4 decades of bike mechanics vs online questions, where the part is not in my hand..

Although the 20 question guessing, as must be done here, is well priced .



given the a/b choice in this situation, I vote Just you..

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Old 09-07-20, 10:59 AM
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Originally Posted by blamester
They come set up perfectly from shimano.
You can never get them perfect again after you open them
If you can only feel it in your hand and not on the bike don't worry about it.
Was there any need to service them?
The above is utter nonsense.

OP: take no offense at these questions, as even good mechanics can made simple mistakes.

Are you sure that you have used the correct number of bearings?
Are you sure that the bearings are sitting in the cups properly?
Are you sure that your adjustment is correct?

If the answers to the above are all "yes," I suggest that you start with new bearings (b/c they are cheap), then pack with good grease (I like Phil Wood, but there are plenty of good brands) and plenty of it. I pack 'em until I can get no more in, and then I add a bit more anyway. I like to see a bit of grease oozing out after each of the first several rides.

The cheapie wheels on my $500 SS commuter bike have slight marring in the cups...However, with fresh #25 bearings and tons of grease, and careful adjustment, they are super smooth. You have to nail down all of the details, and it's easy to occasionally miss one.

Last edited by Koyote; 09-07-20 at 12:18 PM.
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Old 09-07-20, 11:13 AM
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^^This^^

OP sounds like they are pretty knowledgeable and maintain their stuff well. is just bamfoozled over a very different wear pattern that they have previously experienced.
Negative inference and comments are not required.

Only thing I would suggest is to re-do the bearing service, paying special attention to cleaning out any and all old grease, as it may contain some sort of contaminant. I am also a big Phil grease fan.
Probably a good idea to also install new bearings- again, yeah. Not all bearings are created equal, and you may have one or two bad ones in that bunch.

Finally, the 7700 rear hub has an unusual and large dust cap on the non drive side. I have seen these become ever-so-slightly bent where they interface with the hub body, causing the type of faint scratching you describe.
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Old 09-07-20, 11:17 AM
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I"m guessing Koyote's question - correct number of bearings. Did you count what came out and match that? If not, did you use the old rule of fill the race and subtract one? THat random hitch sounds like one bearing too many.

Ben
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Old 09-07-20, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by rccardr
^^This^^

OP sounds like they are pretty knowledgeable and maintain their stuff well. is just bamfoozled over a very different wear pattern that they have previously experienced.
Negative inference and comments are not required.

Only thing I would suggest is to re-do the bearing service, paying special attention to cleaning out any and all old grease, as it may contain some sort of contaminant. I am also a big Phil grease fan.
Probably a good idea to also install new bearings- again, yeah. Not all bearings are created equal, and you may have one or two bad ones in that bunch.

Finally, the 7700 rear hub has an unusual and large dust cap on the non drive side. I have seen these become ever-so-slightly bent where they interface with the hub body, causing the type of faint scratching you describe.


Interesting. I didn't think of that.
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Old 09-07-20, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
I"m guessing Koyote's question - correct number of bearings. Did you count what came out and match that? If not, did you use the old rule of fill the race and subtract one? THat random hitch sounds like one bearing too many.

Ben
I can't recall, offhand, how many bearings go in a 7700 rear hub, but I'm sure that there is a blowup diagram on the 'net. Otherwise just use 79pmooney 's method.
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Old 09-07-20, 01:43 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
The above is utter nonsense.

OP: take no offense at these questions, as even good mechanics can made simple mistakes.

Are you sure that you have used the correct number of bearings?
Are you sure that the bearings are sitting in the cups properly?
Are you sure that your adjustment is correct?

If the answers to the above are all "yes," I suggest that you start with new bearings (b/c they are cheap), then pack with good grease (I like Phil Wood, but there are plenty of good brands) and plenty of it. I pack 'em until I can get no more in, and then I add a bit more anyway. I like to see a bit of grease oozing out after each of the first several rides.

The cheapie wheels on my $500 SS commuter bike have slight marring in the cups...However, with fresh #25 bearings and tons of grease, and careful adjustment, they are super smooth. You have to nail down all of the details, and it's easy to occasionally miss one.
So what's the supposed to do?
Keep taking it apart putting it back together again till it's somehow perfect. Not gonna happen. Like I said if you can't feel as you ride and it doesn't bind that's all you need.
The hub will wear differently and settle as you ride. No point to obsess over small things.
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Old 09-07-20, 02:01 PM
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My NDS shield loosened and I had to replace the balls every time I overhauled the hub. The balls had lost their shine and the grease was black. Shimano didn't sell parts for that hub so I epoxied it in place and clean around it instead of removing it.
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Old 09-07-20, 02:01 PM
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Imagine what the qc was like on those top of the line Shimano hubs.
Mid 90s Japan a byeword for quality. And you think you can match that with a cone wrench.
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Old 09-07-20, 02:20 PM
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Thanks to all for the kind input. My experience has been mostly Campagnolo. In fact, one of my main riding bikes has the exact same hubs, same cones, not same bearings and grease (!), for over 30 years now. Which is precisely why this catching feeling struck me as odd. The other hubs I've used in the past could all be dialled in smoothly too.

I've double checked the basics like bearing count and size and reassembled again after posting. I'm fine with the don't fret approach, but wondered if this behavior was something that could be pinpointed.

Free friendly advice is much appreciated. Maybe this 7700 dura ace just isn't even broken in yet!
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Old 09-07-20, 02:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Contigo
Thanks to all for the kind input. My experience has been mostly Campagnolo. In fact, one of my main riding bikes has the exact same hubs, same cones, not same bearings and grease (!), for over 30 years now. Which is precisely why this catching feeling struck me as odd. The other hubs I've used in the past could all be dialled in smoothly too.

I've double checked the basics like bearing count and size and reassembled again after posting. I'm fine with the don't fret approach, but wondered if this behavior was something that could be pinpointed.

Free friendly advice is much appreciated. Maybe this 7700 dura ace just isn't even broken in yet!
I have these hubs with 30000 on them and the first time I serviced them they had that scratchiness. I tried to adjust it out and couldn't.
They are still running fine and I am sure they will for along time to come. I have lengthened considerably the service interval. But that is up to you.
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Old 09-07-20, 02:39 PM
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Originally Posted by blamester
They come set up perfectly from shimano.
You can never get them perfect again after you open them
If you can only feel it in your hand and not on the bike don't worry about it.
Was there any need to service them?
Originally Posted by blamester
So what's the supposed to do?
Keep taking it apart putting it back together again till it's somehow perfect. Not gonna happen. Like I said if you can't feel as you ride and it doesn't bind that's all you need.
The hub will wear differently and settle as you ride. No point to obsess over small things.
Your post was (is) nonsense.

1) You have no way of knowing whether the hubs came "set up perfectly from Shimano" - and that is irrelevant to the OP's problem, anyway.
2) If you had ever worked on a cup & cone hub, you would know that it is indeed not difficult to "get them perfect again after you open them." People do it all the time. I've done it many times. In fact, I've never not done it when servicing hubs.
3) On what grounds do you know that it is NOT a problem since the OP can't "feel it" on the bike? The OP doesn't even know what the problem is, and somehow YOU know that it's not a real problem?
4) The question of whether the hubs need servicing is not what we're discussing. It's irrelevant.

If you have some useful advice, I'm all ears.

Last edited by Koyote; 09-07-20 at 02:42 PM.
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Old 09-07-20, 02:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Koyote
Your post was (is) nonsense.

1) You have no way of knowing whether the hubs came "set up perfectly from Shimano" - and that is irrelevant to the OP's problem, anyway.
2) If you had ever worked on a cup & cone hub, you would know that it is indeed not difficult to "get them perfect again after you open them." People do it all the time. I've done it many times. In fact, I've never not done it when servicing hubs.
3) On what grounds do you know that it is NOT a problem since the OP can't "feel it" on the bike? The OP doesn't even know what the problem is, and somehow YOU know that it's not a real problem?
4) The question of whether the hubs need servicing is not what we're discussing. It's irrelevant.

If you have some useful advice, I'm all ears.
So the o.p stated he has serviced hubs many times
And you think Shimano let those hubs out when they where less than perfect.
And I think from his reply he is happy .
I have serviced plenty of hubs. It's a low load bicycle wheel. No need to stress out. They will run fine for years even if poorly adjusted
You didn't have to be rude in the first place.
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Old 09-07-20, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by blamester
So the o.p stated he has serviced hubs many times
And you think Shimano let those hubs out when they where less than perfect.
And I think from his reply he is happy .
I have serviced plenty of hubs. It's a low load bicycle wheel. No need to stress out. They will run fine for years even if poorly adjusted
You didn't have to be rude in the first place.
I'm glad the OP is satisfied, but he did ask a question- and your reply was off-topic.

Again, whether the hubs were "perfect" when new is irrelevant.

The other part of your response that was unhelpful was the claim that the hubs will never, after service, be adjusted as well as when new. That's nonsense. If you have serviced plenty of hubs and you can't get them adjusted as well as when new, then you need to brush up on your technique. Shimano doesn't have some magic recipe for adjusting cones and tightening locknuts.
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Old 09-08-20, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by blamester
Imagine what the qc was like on those top of the line Shimano hubs.
Mid 90s Japan a byeword for quality. And you think you can match that with a cone wrench.
Yes, I can, no problem
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Old 09-08-20, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Mr. 66
Yes, I can, no problem
So what is the o.ps next step?
He has adjusted the cups again checked the bearings and everything is as good as he can get it.
​​​​​​I would say he was pretty meticulous doing it which you can tell by reading his post.
What should he do now? Send the hub to you?
Don't ride it. Buy a new one. 10x magnification.
Swap every part?
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Old 09-08-20, 02:03 PM
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I will offer my 2 cents as a 7700 user for many years (have used my current set for 20 years). I have no issue getting the bearing adjustment done properly (all it takes is two cone wrenches and a little bit of patience) and I have overhauled these hubs most years I have owned them, so they have seen their share of bearing changes and adjustments. A few things I would check if I was the OP:

- Check the axle to see if it is straight. Uncommon for it to be bent with a cassette hub, but if it is it would cause some issues with getting the bearing adjustment just right. You can roll the axle on a flat surface with the DS cones hanging off the edge to see if it rolls true.

- Check the freehub to see if the "crunchiness" is coming from there due to seal drag. While well-sealed, the seal on the back of the freehub body can "catch" a bit on the hub mating surface, especially if there's dirt or grime back there. It's not a big job to remove the body from the hub (10mm hex key and a cheater bar). I use a Morningstar Freehub Buddy to lube my freehub, and do notice that there can be a bit of seal drag when it is reinstalled (usually gone after the first ride post-overhaul). This drag can be felt as a catch when the wheel is spinning, and the DS bearing cup is part of the freehub body, not the hub. Perhaps the OP needs to remove the freehub body and a) make sure the rear seal is properly seated, and b) ensure there is no dirt or grit embedded in the seal.

Good luck tracking down what is causing this. And to answer a previous question, 9 balls per side.
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Old 09-08-20, 02:03 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by blamester
So what is the o.ps next step?
He has adjusted the cups again checked the bearings and everything is as good as he can get it.
​​​​​​I would say he was pretty meticulous doing it which you can tell by reading his post.
What should he do now? Send the hub to you?
Don't ride it. Buy a new one. 10x magnification.
Swap every part?
You really have a lot invested in this. Perhaps your time would be better spent learning how to adjust cup & cone bearings...?
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