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Sore Calf

Old 09-11-20, 07:28 AM
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Sore Calf

Throwing this out there to get your experienced advice from people I can relate to!

For some reason I occasionally get calf pain after riding which mostly comes from riding the bike on my trainer when I Zwift. Last year I got it so bad that I had a huge bruise on the back of my calf when I don't bruise easily. The bike I'm on is a bit large for me and someone said it could be because it's not fitted for me. My outside road bike is a size 56 and this bike is 58 but I'm 5"11" so that shouldn't be too big?
It doesn't really happen when I'm on my outdoor bikes but mostly with the inside bike on the trainer. I have a smart trainer so it applies resistance on Zwift hills.

Any ideas on how I can prevent this?
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Old 09-11-20, 08:29 AM
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Anytime I hear of calf problems, the first thing I imagine is that the foot is too far back on the pedal causing you to have to use your calf muscles way too much. Sometimes it takes some getting used to, but putting your foot further forward on the pedal might give you better power transfer into the pedals and work your calf and rest of body less.

Also might be your seat is too high and you are having to point your toes down near the bottom of your stroke.

Or maybe you just naturally try to pedal with your foot angle constantly varying as you pedal. Don't do that.


As for the bruising, that's odd to me. I seldom bruise even after taking a bad hit or fall. Might that be long term diet related or something else you need to look into?

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Old 09-13-20, 05:55 AM
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It does sound like a fit issue, or possibly pushing too hard a gear, or a combo of both.

If your 56 is a good fit, just make sure your saddle position to the pedals is the same on both bikes. You can adjust the stem on the 58 to get the same reach. Are the cranks the same length on both bikes?

You should be able to get the 58 adjusted close enough to the 56 for trainer rides. I assume you’re using the same type of pedals on both bikes???
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Old 09-13-20, 06:44 AM
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Originally Posted by gthomson
Throwing this out there to get your experienced advice from people I can relate to!

For some reason I occasionally get calf pain after riding which mostly comes from riding the bike on my trainer when I Zwift. Last year I got it so bad that I had a huge bruise on the back of my calf when I don't bruise easily. The bike I'm on is a bit large for me and someone said it could be because it's not fitted for me. My outside road bike is a size 56 and this bike is 58 but I'm 5"11" so that shouldn't be too big?
It doesn't really happen when I'm on my outdoor bikes but mostly with the inside bike on the trainer. I have a smart trainer so it applies resistance on Zwift hills.

Any ideas on how I can prevent this?
Pain in both calf's or just one side?
If one side then your dominant leg is working too hard and you can work to strengthen the other side for more balanced riding and training.
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Old 09-13-20, 06:47 AM
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Originally Posted by jppe
It does sound like a fit issue, or possibly pushing too hard a gear, or a combo of both.

If your 56 is a good fit, just make sure your saddle position to the pedals is the same on both bikes. You can adjust the stem on the 58 to get the same reach. Are the cranks the same length on both bikes?

You should be able to get the 58 adjusted close enough to the 56 for trainer rides. I assume you’re using the same type of pedals on both bikes???
Yes, sometimes when I ride my SS which has big gearing and I cant generate enough RPMs for some of the hills, the mashing does a job on my calf's.
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Old 09-13-20, 07:29 AM
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It's always just one leg and right now it's the right leg but can't recall if that's consistent. Now after reading about the pedal cleat position I just noticed that they don't match, so that might be part of the reason. One is positioned higher up on the shoe than the other. I'll adjust them to match.
At the current seat level, my legs have a slight bend in the down pedal and the stem doesn't look too out of whack but will measure on both bikes to see how close or far apart they are.

Zwift does tend to encourage me to mash a bit too much as I have a smart trainer and the resistance increases with hills. I put out an average of 2.0 - 2.5 watts/kg on my rides for about an hour.

I probably don't stretch as much as I should after the ride which doesn't help. Usually I'm dripping so much after my ride I want to get off the bike as fast as I can!
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Old 09-13-20, 09:37 PM
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Calf pain could be different things. A few years back I had it just below the knee, and it turned out to be a Baker's cyst.

Where exactly is the pain? inner or outer, upper or lower? Near the achilles tendon? Have a look at some anatomy drawings - there are two main calf muscles - the soleus and the gastrocnemius.
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Old 09-14-20, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan
Calf pain could be different things. A few years back I had it just below the knee, and it turned out to be a Baker's cyst.

Where exactly is the pain? inner or outer, upper or lower? Near the achilles tendon? Have a look at some anatomy drawings - there are two main calf muscles - the soleus and the gastrocnemius.
ooh, what is a baker's cyst? doesn't sound very good.

So definitely in the gastrocnemius muscle and is eased with a little massage using my fist. Reading all the advice above, when I Zwifted yesterday I paid attention to using a dominant leg and tried pushing more with my left. I also rode more in the lower gear for higher cadence and reduced the mashing. Seems to be better.
I will try and raise the seat a little but can't bring it up too much higher as I already find it hard enough to get my leg over it when I dismount since it's already sitting a few inches off the ground from the height of the trainer.
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Old 09-14-20, 07:41 AM
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Originally Posted by gthomson
ooh, what is a baker's cyst? doesn't sound very good.

So definitely in the gastrocnemius muscle and is eased with a little massage using my fist. Reading all the advice above, when I Zwifted yesterday I paid attention to using a dominant leg and tried pushing more with my left. I also rode more in the lower gear for higher cadence and reduced the mashing. Seems to be better.
I will try and raise the seat a little but can't bring it up too much higher as I already find it hard enough to get my leg over it when I dismount since it's already sitting a few inches off the ground from the height of the trainer.
This does sound like a fit issue. Get the saddle where it needs to be and find something to serve as a step stool.
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Old 09-14-20, 07:53 AM
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Originally Posted by MinnMan
Calf pain could be different things. A few years back I had it just below the knee, and it turned out to be a Baker's cyst.

Where exactly is the pain? inner or outer, upper or lower? Near the achilles tendon? Have a look at some anatomy drawings - there are two main calf muscles - the soleus and the gastrocnemius.
This may help with identification:

https://www.musclesused.com/gastrocne...-calf-muscles/
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Old 09-14-20, 07:56 AM
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Originally Posted by joesch
Cool
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Old 09-15-20, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by gthomson
ooh, what is a baker's cyst? doesn't sound very good.

So definitely in the gastrocnemius muscle and is eased with a little massage using my fist. Reading all the advice above, when I Zwifted yesterday I paid attention to using a dominant leg and tried pushing more with my left. I also rode more in the lower gear for higher cadence and reduced the mashing. Seems to be better.
I will try and raise the seat a little but can't bring it up too much higher as I already find it hard enough to get my leg over it when I dismount since it's already sitting a few inches off the ground from the height of the trainer.
I'd just make sure the saddles on both bikes are the same height from the pedals and also positioned fore and aft the same on the seat post. Sometimes seat posts have setbacks and others don't. You might just look to see if the seat post designs are the same as well. If the crank arms are the same length I always measure from the pedal bolts for saddle height. If you go too high with the saddle that can cause pain issues in the back of the knee. Having a little different cleat position on opposite shoes is not that bad of an issue. Normally legs are a little different in length so having slightly different cleat positions compensates for the different leg lengths. I'm not a fitter but I've learned an awful lot from fitting myself from different issues. When I was riding across the US I started having saddle pains I'd never experienced before.....to the point I couldn't sit on the saddle for more than a 1/2 mile at a time. I made a very minor adjustment to the saddle and the pain disappeared. A lot of times it doesn't take much of a change to see improvements.
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Old 09-15-20, 08:43 AM
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Sometimes it's caused by changing your pedal stroke in order to provide some relief when you are still trying to maintain high output such as focusing on pulling up vs. pushing down on the pedal stroke.

Do you ride harder indoors than you do outdoors?
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Old 09-15-20, 09:54 AM
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foot position might need adjustment?
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Old 09-16-20, 06:48 AM
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Originally Posted by jadocs
Sometimes it's caused by changing your pedal stroke in order to provide some relief when you are still trying to maintain high output such as focusing on pulling up vs. pushing down on the pedal stroke.

Do you ride harder indoors than you do outdoors?
Yes, according to Strava I ride a lot harder on the trainer than on the road but I think that's some false data being calculated by Zwift compared to Strava. I don't have a power meter or a Garmin so I let both tools "calculate" my power for me. I have an Elite smart trainer and so it use's Zwift Power to estimate my power but I think it's off. According to Zwift, I'm outputting about 2.5-3.0 w/kg but on the road it's more like 1.5. Albeit, on Zwift I ride without having to stop or slow down so it should be higher, but not sure about that high?

I'm going to make some adjustments based on al these great recommendations, thanks everyone.
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Old 09-16-20, 12:55 PM
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Fit issue. Can't say anything without photos of you on the bike:
one with pedals horizontal, hands on the hoods, forearms level,
one with pedals vertical (aliined with seat tube), hands on hoods, elbows slightly bent.
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Old 09-17-20, 06:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Fit issue. Can't say anything without photos of you on the bike:
one with pedals horizontal, hands on the hoods, forearms level,
one with pedals vertical (aliined with seat tube), hands on hoods, elbows slightly bent.
Not great pictures but hope they help and thanks for looking


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Old 09-17-20, 08:48 PM
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Originally Posted by gthomson
Not great pictures but hope they help and thanks for looking
Nope, don't think it's a bike fit issue. However, it wouldn't hurt for you to do a self-check on it, those photos not being all that perfect. Here's a bike fit primer: https://www.bikeforums.net/21296948-post3.html

The bike is not too big, not by any means. It's actually too small, but it's workable.

i can think of some things to try:
First of all, cadence. Do you have a cadence meter? Your cadence should be somewhere in the 80-95 range, lower for climbs, higher for flats. 90 is kind of the standard flat road cadence, though that does vary with individuals. Watts is a function of torque X cadence, so at the same watts, pedal pressure goes down with increasing cadence. When I'm trying to do hard intervals, my cadence is usually closer to 100 or else my legs give out. IOW, more cadence will reduce force on your calves.

Another thing which will reduce force on your calves is relaxing them. Let your heels drop. Relax your ankles. Your current position has plenty of room for heel drop before your legs get too straight. It used to be a thing to "ankle," pushing down with the toe on the downstroke. No one does that anymore because the quad muscles are so much stronger. Use them instead of your calves, by simply relaxing them. Feel your shoes' heel cups as you pedal. Concentrate of the contact between your heel and that cup.

Another thing is to simply reduce the downforce on the pedal during the downstroke. One can produce the same power, actually more power, by spreading the pedaling force out more around the pedal circle. The trick is to always exert your force on the pedal in the direction which is tangent to the pedal circle. The tangential force is the only force that does anything to propel the bike forward. This is the big thing that makes toe clips and now clipless pedals work so much better than flat pedals. Starting at top dead center, one pushes forward on the pedal, like kicking a dog off your front wheel. This gradually becomes a straight-down force at 90°. Past that point, one changes that down force to more of a pulling back force (heel cups!) until at the bottom one is pulling straight back. One continues to pull back and now slightly up for maybe another 30°. After that point, one simply lifts one's leg a bit, but don't pull up on the pedal. Just lift the leg a little. As the pedal nears the top, raise your toe, IOW start to drop your heel. Then, coming over the top, your heel will feel a little dropped, though a photo will show it raised because of ankle angle. Push forward with that heel dropped and so forth.

In interesting way to get used to doing this is to pedal very fast in a very low gear, say 100-120 rpm, small ring and a large cog, or pedal at a cadence just a little less than where you start to bounce. Practice this about once a week for quite a while. With practice, you should be able to hit 150 rpm without bouncing. Bouncing happens because one is still pushing down on the pedal when the pedal hits bottom dead center - and up your butt goes, Newton and all that. The trick to to do that tangential force pedaling thing. Then no down force at the bottom, right? When doing this drill, try to imagine a layer of air between the bottom of your foot and the shoe sole. Pedal with the shoe's upper, not the sole. This'll fix you right up.

The last thing, but still a good thing, is to do one-legged calf raises on a stair, say one set of 30 with each leg and through the full range of motion at your ankle. Yeah, 30 is a lot. Takes practice. Twice a week, no more. In spite of all these words, one does have to use one's calves.
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Old 09-18-20, 06:17 AM
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Carbonfiberboy Greatly appreciate the assessment and response. My indoor set up is in my basement office so I can run Zwift on my computer and large screen but not ideal for taking pictures. Not sure why the bike looks smaller, as it's 58cm and I'm 5'!!". I think I'm mashing too much as my cadence tends to be a bit lower as I down gear to get more power instead of spinning faster. I'll work on the pedaling and appreciate that advice, as well as the calf exercises, I'm sure that will help. If you can think of any videos you would recommend on pedaling form, I would appreciate it.
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Old 09-18-20, 08:43 AM
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Do you only get this when on the trainer? To me a trainer and being on the road are not comparable environments.

Though for over 10 years I keep saying I'm going to get a trainer or rollers, I never have. Every time I try one or the other the experience is too foreign and to me... not enjoyable. So I just content myself with cadence work on my wife's stationary bike during the winter.

Hard to tell in the pics, but your feet look too far back on the pedals. That will work the calf muscles more.
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Old 09-18-20, 09:40 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
Do you only get this when on the trainer? To me a trainer and being on the road are not comparable environments.

Though for over 10 years I keep saying I'm going to get a trainer or rollers, I never have. Every time I try one or the other the experience is too foreign and to me... not enjoyable. So I just content myself with cadence work on my wife's stationary bike during the winter.

Hard to tell in the pics, but your feet look too far back on the pedals. That will work the calf muscles more.
Get rollers that float forward and back. I'm never left wanting riding my floating smart resistance rollers.
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Old 09-18-20, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by gthomson
Carbonfiberboy Greatly appreciate the assessment and response. My indoor set up is in my basement office so I can run Zwift on my computer and large screen but not ideal for taking pictures. Not sure why the bike looks smaller, as it's 58cm and I'm 5'!!". I think I'm mashing too much as my cadence tends to be a bit lower as I down gear to get more power instead of spinning faster. I'll work on the pedaling and appreciate that advice, as well as the calf exercises, I'm sure that will help. If you can think of any videos you would recommend on pedaling form, I would appreciate it.
Go through those bike fit instructions. Your torso-upper arm angle is too small. I'd suggest a slammed -17° stem, maybe 100-120mm, see what that looks like. You might or might not like it, but it's cheap to try. Lots of inexpensive stems online.

Pedal like these guys

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Old 09-18-20, 12:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01
Do you only get this when on the trainer? To me a trainer and being on the road are not comparable environments.

Though for over 10 years I keep saying I'm going to get a trainer or rollers, I never have. Every time I try one or the other the experience is too foreign and to me... not enjoyable. So I just content myself with cadence work on my wife's stationary bike during the winter.

Hard to tell in the pics, but your feet look too far back on the pedals. That will work the calf muscles more.
Resistance rollers are the Only Thing. I've had my set of over 20 years. Look at SportsCrafters. IMO the floating thing is no big deal. I don't think I'd like it. The idea of rollers is steady on. They take a little getting used to. I started in a narrow doorway. Now I have a post next to my right shoulder. Makes it all a lot easier and safer. I think I've fallen off twice in all those thousands of miles. No tire wear, just throw your road bike on as is and go. 2 weeks and you'll be having fun. You have to relax and remember you steer with your weight, just like on the road. A little down pressure on the bar in the direction you want to move does it. Don't "steer."
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Old 09-18-20, 12:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
IMO the floating thing is no big deal. I don't think I'd like it. The idea of rollers is steady on.
You should try it. Allows the bike to move naturally underneath you just like an outdoor ride..I mean if the goal is to replicate the same feeling as riding outdoors and one does not like the artificiality of being locked stationary.
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Old 09-18-20, 03:18 PM
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Originally Posted by jadocs
You should try it. Allows the bike to move naturally underneath you just like an outdoor ride..I mean if the goal is to replicate the same feeling as riding outdoors and one does not like the artificiality of being locked stationary.
That's what I don't get. Outdoors my bike stays stationary under me, though it does move side to side a bit, Hard to ride the white line for very long. It certainly doesn't go forward and backward. OTOH, on my rollers I don't go from sitting to standing a lot. I mostly sit, maybe stand every 20', if that. OTOH I understand that I haven't tried it. Still, I can't see what value it would bring to a workout in terms of fitness gained for dollar or time spent.

I don't feel locked stationary, though I admit rollers take a lot more concentration than outdoor riding. I had a friend walk in the door unexpectedly last year. I said "Hello!" and was on the floor. OTOH I think concentration is a good thing. I like it, that Zen thing I guess. Ya gotta be here now.
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