fullergarrett

I'm at an internal impasse on whether to setup one of the tires on my bike tubeless or just keep the standard tube-type clincher setup.

I just purchased a new rim (Velocity CliffHanger, tubeless-ready) and tire (Schwalbe Marathon, non-tubeless-ready) for my bike. Before purchasing this new rim (where I switched the whole bike from Schrader to Presta valves, as the new rim is drilled for Presta) I ran a "ghetto tubeless" setup (split-tube method) on my front - stock rim with Schwalbe Marathon. The ghetto tubeless worked very well and I had it installed for 135 miles before I put a tube in it after converting to Presta valves. The tubeless never gave me any issues and sealed punctures quickly.

In a recent thread I discussed that the new Schwalbe Marathon I purchased keeps getting "stuck" to the Cliffhanger rim. It's so stuck that I need to use a vise to get it off. Obviously I'm likely not going to be able to change flats out in the field if it's stuck to the rim, rendering my patch kit and spare tube worthless. I have a half bottle of Stan's from the previous tubeless setup, but I don't really like the idea of putting sealant (Stan's included) in tubes. I've ran Stan's in tubes in the past and have a 50/50 success rate. Some times it does its job and seals the puncture, while other times it almost instantly gums the valve making a huge mess. (I've heard this is even worse with Presta valves.)

I haven't had the same problem with Stan's gumming valves on tubeless setups, oddly. Plus, as someone mentioned, the tubeless tire can usually be repaired (using tire plugs) externally, so I don't need to worry as much about getting the tire off the rim.

For me, I don't do any "extreme" riding - I'm just a run-of-the-mill person who rides recreationally... usually around town or to classes and stuff. Therefore, most of the ordinary pros of tubeless - the ability to run lower pressures, "weight savings", etc. don't apply to me. But I have the pros of even more flat protection (sealant), don't have to worry about getting the tire off the rim to mend a punctured tube and it would free up an additional spare tube.

However, I've also been thinking about the cons. Primarily, the mess it can make of my tire/rim, as there's still sealant residue inside my front tire. Also, the required continuous maintenance (topping sealant every 5-6 months.) However, I flat/get punctures pretty often so I usually end up replacing tubes a few times in that same period.

I'm torn and would like to hear some opinions from professionals. I'm a Clydesdale rider (~330-340 lbs) if that helps. As mentioned, the split-tube method worked extremely well - even with the stock (non-tubeless) rims and Schwalbe Marathon (also non-tubeless) tires.

Also - will the tire plugs work with a non-tubeless-ready tire? I assume so, but I feel that's a piece of the puzzle.

Any input would be greatly appreciated. Thanks.

LesterOfPuppets

For the tire removal, hands at 3 and 9, look for something to support the hub, and try to push the bead off to the inside of the rim. Don't bother with levers until the whole bead is popped off to the inside channel.
​
​​​​​​ideally you'd have a Rubbermaid brute trashcan to put the wheel on while pushing the beads off, but out on the streets, use a fencepost, parking block, rock, whathaveyou

smashndash

At 330lbs, I would not go tubeless unless you were going for 35mm+ tires. It’s sketchy to run tl tires at a super high pressure for a couple reasons.

That being said, if you can fit 35+ tires in your bike, I would recommend TL because surely you run the risk of pinch flatting occasionally. TL would allow you to run more comfortable pressures with fewer flats (but watch out for those rims).

What size tire and what pressure were you running with the ghetto setup? I gotta say, that doesn’t sound super safe.

fullergarrett

The ghetto tubeless setup was 26x2.0" tires being ran at 40-50 PSI normally. But I had the ghetto tubeless setup to 60-65 PSI before and no issues. As I mentioned, it worked quite well - and I did do some "torture testing" with it.

This setup would be on the rear.

smashndash

ah ok. That’s a very large tire. I’d say stick with the largest tire you can to be safe.

Ghetto tubeless rims are one thing. Ghetto tubeless tires is playing with fire. They generally have bigger bead diameters so they don’t sit as tight on the rim. The beads also stretch more, which means they can jump right over the rim sidewall. You’re entirely dependent on the hooks. Which can fail you under hard cornering, especially at lower pressures.

Tubeless tires can suffer from the same problems, just to a much lesser extent. Which is why I do not recommend small tires/high pressures.

fullergarrett

Sorry... this is all on a Giant Sedona. The tires are 26x2.0.

The rim is a Velocity CliffHanger rim, which is tubeless-ready. I did a dry tubeless test earlier (no sealant) and it worked very well... got the tire inflated to around ~60 PSI. The only problem was air was leaking around the valve stem so it didn't hold very long, but I'm assuming the Stan's would take care of that. The tire held long enough for me to do a very quick ride, seemed fine. While the rim is tubeless ready, I have Gorilla Tape as the "rim tape" instead of some sort of official Stan's or some other brand tubeless rim tape.

The thing that brought about this whole debacle was the tire getting stuck to the rim. As noted in the original post, I had to use a vise to pop it loose from the rim. (Though I'll need to give the "LesterOfPuppets" method a try.) Standing on the tire with both feet at 3 and 9 didn't even budge it from the rim. Someone brought this up in the other (linked in op) thread, but I can easily repair a leak in a tubeless tire externally by using plugs. In most cases, I wouldn't have to remove the tire from the rim. Otherwise, I'd be stuck making the walk of shame back home.

Nice thing about an inner tube is it can be easily repaired or replaced (cheaply) if damaged... that is, if you can get the tire off the rim. I used to just replace tubes every time I got a puncture, but I'm going to start patching them. Not just because it's eco-friendly and economical, but because I have to specially order these tubes online and wait for them to show up in the mail. My local Wally World carried the old tubes.

As an aside, I think when these tires finally wear out (the tire I'm referring to in this thread has less than 25 miles on it, all with a tube other than a very, very short drive down the driveway - so that is likely a long ways down the road) I'm thinking about going for a pair of Conti Double Fighters. They were my #2 choice, but I decided to go with the Schwalbe because of the enhanced protection, reflective sidewall and the colors on the tire sidewalls actually match the frame pretty well, which just happens to be a coincidence. The Marathons are also 26x2.0, whereas the Double Fighter is 26x1.9. (Stock tires were 26x1.95.) The reason I'm going to go for the Double Fighters is I'm hoping they don't get stuck to the rim so easily. I'm really concerned that I may get a flat and since I can't remove the tire to patch/replace the tube, I'll be stuck. Hence this whole discussion.

Edit/P.S. - With the ghetto tubeless, I was brave enough to inflate it inside my dorm room. One of my worst fears is that I'll have a tire blowout (whether tubeless or a tube) in my room... causing my building to be evacuated as if they thought something serious exploded or a gun went off. I was brave enough to inflate it to 65 PSI, but didn't dare going beyond that. (Max on the tire itself is 70.) I remember inflating it to around 30-40 PSI and letting it sit overnight before going the rest of the way. I was able to use a frame pump to get it seated, however I had to start using a local gas station air compressor if I had to re-seat it after the tire got broken in.

I was actually able to get the tubeless setup test from earlier today seated with a floor pump, although it was extremely difficult and required lots of quick pumping. If I do decide to go back to tubeless, I think I'll use an air compressor. I think my floor pump is worn out and needs to be replaced, as well.

smashndash

I’ve blown a tube in a dorm before. At night. Very loud, but nowhere near gunshot level (I imagine). No ringing of the ears or anything. No cops were called either. I’d say close all your doors and windows and you’re good lol

Also I’d look into the Airshot or similar contraptions. Quite handy.

DiabloScott

You got a notoriously tight clincher tire with a tubeless rim... worst combo. I suggest a plain semi slick mtb tire and plain butyl tubes... they should be easy to mount and have good enough flat protection at 70 psi or so.

fullergarrett

I've had some close calls, but no loud explosions. One time I installed a new tube in a tire. Was inflating the tire and got to around 58 PSI... just like one more pump before I removed the head and called it good. Didn't even get to make a last pump before a seam in the tube let go. Thankfully, no explosion - just a dull "pssssttttt...."

I have, however, inflated tubes (outside of the tire) a couple times in my dorm to the point where they popped. One time it happened with my road bike... 27x1 1/4" tube. I guess a put a little too much air in it, because it went off with a bang. Not too bad, though. Was just a tad louder than a large balloon popping. (I think that particular tube was defective.) The other time was with a punctured 26" tube. I put my thumb over the puncture and inflated the tube. When I let my thumb off the puncture, I guess the tube stretched the puncture and caused it to tear the tube. Was a smallish hole (caused by a thumbtack or something... those are common causes of punctures) that turned into a 4" tear in the tube.

When I was younger, my grandfather would inflate bike tires with his air compressor. (You know where this is heading.) I witnessed my first tire blowout around the age of 6 when he was inflating the tire on a small (16"?) kids bike tire. One of the bikes had a gnarly, quarter-sized tear in the tire casing that let the tube bubble through. (My grandfather called them "goose eggs." He got his first car around WWII, and he said the tires on his 1931 Ford Model A had many "goose eggs" in the tires where the casing was worn through and the tube was bulging through.) At the low pressures, the "goose egg" wasn't much of an issue. But I guess he put a little too much air in the tire, tube bulged through too much and BANG! My ears rang the rest of the afternoon and all I could smell was the fishy smell of the ruptured tube for the next week or so. My grandfather did it again a few years later. He inflated a tire on a 26" mountain bike. Tire was rated for 50 PSI max. I felt the tire and it was rock solid, and I instantly spotted trouble when I noticed one of the beads was literally hanging on the rim. Looked down, and the tube was quickly bulging out of the tire. Quickly ran to the end of the driveway. Maybe five seconds later the tube let go, once again with a loud BANG! My uncle estimated he probably had well over 100 PSI in that tire.

Only time I've had a tube literally go BANG on me was with my Free Spirit Pinnacle 27" road bike. Before I found that its rims couldn't handle the 90 PSI the new tire required, I pumped it up to 90 PSI and was met with a loud gunshot-like sound on my ride home. Thankfully it was the rear tire. The other time I had a tire blow off the rim was on purpose. I overinflated a tire on a bike just by 10 PSI for giggles. Rode down the street, rounded a corner and stopped to take a breather. Found the tube bulging right out of the front tire. It was scary because I had overinflated the tire on the rear by like 30 PSI or so... but it held on. Deflated it immediately.

Anyways, sorry for the digression. As you can see, I've had my fair share of pops and bangs - some my fault, some my grandfather's fault, and some just completely random.

Back on topic, I think next time I have access to the bike, I'm going to deflate the rear tire again and see if the tire comes off easier. See if I could get it off on the side of a street or in a parking lot if needed. If it doesn't come off, I may just go ahead and do the tubeless setup.

But I'm still interested in hearing what people have to say. I've done lots of research on the matter and can tell it's a very divisive thing. My local bike shop owner hates tubeless. On the other hand, I know someone who swears by it and says its the best thing ever. (I think that guy even setup the tires on his kids bike tubeless.) I've found that tubeless is mostly used by mountain bikers and in street trials. I can see how it can be beneficial for them, but I've also heard that many of the pros that come with tubeless can mostly be remedied by special tubes and tires. (For instance, weight weenies can always run featherweight or latex tubes.) Just seems to depend on who you ask and what side of the fence they're on.

Also, I've heard about the AirShot pumps. My pump is worn out but I'm not going to spend $150-200 for a pump... even if I go tubeless. It's a lot cheaper just to drive to the local gas station for a quick shot of air to seat the tire. Nice thing about keeping tubes is I don't even have to worry about that... I could use a frame pump just fine.

fullergarrett

By worst combo, do you mean likely to blow off the rim? Or just hell to work with?

As mentioned, my #2 tire choice was a Continental Double Fighter III. I've heard it's a pretty decent tire for my riding conditions, if not slightly more knobby than I'd like. Since the Marathon in question is a brand new tire (and presumably I can't return it... it has been a little over a month since I purchased it) I'd hate to part with a perfectly good tire just to spend money on a new tire.

DiabloScott

Yeah, just hell to mount and remove, as you've noticed.

What you have now, is a tire/rim combo that you cannot change a flat on - on the road. I think you said this is your back wheel so you could use the Marathon on the front or give it away or swap with a buddy or save it for later or something, but if walking home is not an acceptable option you need a tire on the new rim that you can remove and mount with a spare tube easily on the side of the road.

And get some real rim tape - whether tubeless type or Velox, but that's not a place to economize... there are a zillion posts in here about people who regret doing that.

fietsbob

How Old are you?

Last year one of the Trans Am racer types wanted to work on a tubeless sealant goo etc.. , DIY..

and was relegated to the sidewalk so the mess could be hosed off..

fullergarrett

The front tire is also a Marathon, although slightly older and has more miles on it. As for the walking home, this is why I'm thinking about the tubeless. The sealant would seal any small punctures and a plug can seal larger punctures. (Both don't require removing the tire. As for putting sealant in tubes, I've done that. I've had a 50% success rate running Stan's in tubes - sometimes it works perfectly and does its job, other times it gums up the valve and makes a huge mess.) So unlike the tire just deflating and me having to do the walk of shame back home because a thumbtack, it'd seal the puncture. But that's my thought.

The tire will eventually either wear out and have to be replaced, or it will loosen up as it breaks in. The front tire was pretty tight on the stock rim... requiring the use of tire levers to get off. 160 miles later, the tire can easily be pried off without the use of any tools or force. If these break in the same way and no longer have the issue of sticking to the rim, then I'm no longer concerned. When these tires finally wear out and need to be replaced, I may replace them with the aforementioned Continental Double Fighter III tires. Those tires are 26x1.9", so slightly narrower (these are 26x2.0") so I hope that is enough of a difference to not cause a repeat performance.

I did not know that Gorilla Tape was problematic. In fact, I know a lot of people running tubeless (specifically Mountain Bikers) swear by the Gorilla Tape method. I've heard that other kinds of tape - namely electrical tape and some other things, can be very problematic. (I've learned my lesson on the electrical tape... it's really only good for very temporary uses.)

As for the mess of tubeless, that's one of the cons. The setup really isn't that messy, or at least not in my experience. I've always done it over a piece of cardboard to catch any sealant drippings. But the mess is about the same as that of adding sealant to a tube. The biggest mess is the sealant on the tire casing and rim, which is always a fun time cleaning that up. I've found that tubes with sealant (specifically Stan's) can make a mess of the tire, too - especially if it was a large puncture or a tear in the tube. Adding sealant to tubes can gum up the valve stem. I've had to flush the sealant out of the tube just to be able to use it.

If being a Clydesdale didn't already give it away, I'm not a racer of any sort. I also wouldn't consider myself a commuter. However, I try to ride my bike often and do go far enough that walking back home would be a major inconvenience. I've actually had to walk back home because of bike issues... it's not very fun.

As for the tubeless vs. tubes, I'm not saying one is better than the other. Until I bought my first Schwalbe Marathon back in November, I've always ran tubes in my tires. In normal circumstances, tubeless is more of a novelty for me - I'm not a weight-weenie, I don't ride low pressures and therefore don't worry about pinch flats, I don't do "extreme riding", and I ordered a patch kit. But because the tire is stuck to the rim I'm really trying to find the best option that doesn't require me to have to purchase another tire.

Thanks everyone for your votes and input so far.

tomtomtom123

As I mentioned in your other thread, if the tire bead is an extremely tight fit on your rim and you have full width rim tape in between the tire bead and rim, if you are using adhesive tape, then a possibility is to first try cutting the sides of the rim tape so that it only covers the center 18-20mm of the rim since you only need to cover the spoke holes assuming that you're still using tubes. This way the effective rim seat diameter is smaller so that you get a looser fit and you can check if this fixes the problem with the stuck tire.

If you are going to go tubeless then I assume that you'll need full width tape and you'll still get a stuck tire.

fullergarrett

Sorry, I just now read your response in my other thread. I'll try removing the Gorilla Tape to see if that resolves the problem. However, for a little over a week I had this tire installed without the Gorilla Tape. Instead, I used a standard "cloth" rim strip on top of a layer of electrical tape. (The electrical tape was completely covered by the rim strip.) If I remember correctly, the tire was still a pain to get off then.

I'm not expecting a transition to tubeless to make the removal of the tire any easier. In fact, as others have pointed out, the sealant may make it slightly more difficult. The reason I'm considering tubeless is because punctures would be sealed using sealant, or I could (externally) fix a puncture by using plugs. With a tube, I would need to remove the tire from the rim to patch or replace the inner tube.

tomtomtom123

loose rim band will move around and get under and in between the tire bead and the rim seat when you're installing and inflating, which will make the tire a tighter fit wherever they overlap. What I mean is to test whether having a naked bead seat would make it easier to remove the tire by decreasing the effective bead seat diameter. I don't know if you added only a narrow strip of adhesive tape on the center of the rim (which is necessary for covering the spoke holes), or if you covered the entire width of the rim which would then be counterproductive to the purpose of the test (since the tape would get under the tire bead and increase the tightness of the fit). Assuming that you have a 25mm internal width and maybe 26mm bottom width, then something like 18mm tape along the center would give you 4mm of naked seat on each side.
Also, if you are stacking multiple layers of tape and adding a cloth band on top if it, the total stack height will be very tall. Since the bottom of your rim is extremely flat, if the tape and band are in between the tire beads, then that tall height will block your tire from moving inward to the center channel of the rim. My rim does not have a flat bottom, but instead has gradual curves towards the center channel. I use 19mm wide Tesa 4289 strapping tape (on my 26mm rim), which is 0.15mm thick, 2 to 3 layers, which is in total around 0.5mm tall, but since I only applied it in the center channel and the bottom is not flat, the bead seat is completely clear of tape so that the tape doesn't get in the way of removing the tire. I bought 66 meters of the tape for $5 plus shipping.

LesterOfPuppets

Full width cloth rim tape + electrical tape is too thick for use on tubeless rims. Same with Gorilla tape. Gorilla tape is usually reserved for tubeless setups on non tubeless rims, or non tubeless tires, or just the odd loose fitting tire

Use tubeless tape. One layer for up to 40 psi, two layers for higher pressures

fietsbob

deciding by popularity yes or no?

fullergarrett

I guess the final outcome will be decided by how things go.

When I have access to the bike next (it's in storage at a family member's house) I'll remove the Gorilla Tape and see if just having the ordinary rim strip on will make a difference. Truth be told, I don't think it will. As mentioned, before I installed the Gorilla Tape I had a layer of electrical tape covered by the ordinary rim strip. The tape was covered by the rim strip, and the electrical tape and rim strip were both well in the recess of the rim. If I remember correctly, the tire was still sticking to the rim even before adding the GT.

If removing the Gorilla Tape doesn't make a difference, I'll try to swap the front and rear tires. Since the front tire is pretty well broken in and is pretty loose (as mentioned, it's so loose on the stock front rim that I can remove it and the tube without any tools or much force. I can easily see the rim strip and even light from the gap between the rim and the tire bead on the other side) it should fit nicely on the new rim. The new rear tire will go on the front rim, and both will have tubes. I'm optimistic that this will work, because the front tire should not get stuck since it has loosened up.

As a last resort, I'll go tubeless on the rear. If the tire swap is unsuccessful, I'll put the new tire back on the rear rim and just set it up tubeless with sealant. Reason being the same I've mentioned previously - the sealant will seal most punctures, and other punctures can be repaired using tire plugs. When I order new tires, I'll go with something else (possibly the Double Fighter III) that should fit a little better.

Once again, thanks for your input. I may update this thread with the outcome.

fullergarrett

Good news... this issue has been solved without the need to convert to tubeless.

As I suspected in my previous post, swapping the tires did the trick. The front tire fit well on the new rear wheel, allowing me to easily pull the tire off without much force or the need of a vise. Likewise, the front tire fit like a glove on the front stock rim, also with no issues. On the rear rim I also removed all of the Gorilla Tape, using just the standard plastic rim strip.

I can now continue riding without worrying about having to make the "walk of shame" back home because I couldn't get the tire off the rim.