Tubeless tires work with Co2
07-13-20, 07:46 PM
#1
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Tubeless tires work with Co2
I'm going to buy tubeless tire. I have a question. Does the CO2 affect sealant?
07-13-20, 08:18 PM
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07-13-20, 08:29 PM
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CO2 slowly dissolves through the tire rubber. I don't think any sealant is enough to protect it.
However, I don't think CO2 does anything to inhibit the sealant from sealing up a hole. Some people use CO2 to help seat the tire when they are setting it up.
However, I don't think CO2 does anything to inhibit the sealant from sealing up a hole. Some people use CO2 to help seat the tire when they are setting it up.
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07-13-20, 08:38 PM
#4
Non omnino gravis
If you've had a puncture large enough to need to put pressure back in the tire, you're going to have to add sealant anyway. You shouldn't be using CO2 in tires in place of air anyway. Smaller molecules, it leaks out faster.
I don't care a pump on any of my bikes, for roadside use, it's CO2 only.
I don't care a pump on any of my bikes, for roadside use, it's CO2 only.
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07-13-20, 08:46 PM
#5
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now is it the CO2 that dissolves the tire???? or some other propellant ingredients?
because if co2 dissolve tire tubber, than I expect co2 to dissolve outside of the tire too
because if co2 dissolve tire tubber, than I expect co2 to dissolve outside of the tire too
07-13-20, 08:48 PM
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CO2 is a larger molecule than N2 or O2, so the previously-posted explanation for why it leaks out isn't accurate.
07-13-20, 09:07 PM
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Some old answers from Zinn's column
https://www.velonews.com/gear/techni...ant-questions/
(edited for relevance, there was a lot here too about fix-a-flat cartridges that use propane)
https://www.velonews.com/gear/techni...ant-questions/
Here are some replies from sealant makers.― Lennard
From Effetto Mariposa:
The expansion of a gas is an endothermic reaction (brutally said, it “sucks” heat) and the magnitude of the temperature drop is related to the initial gas pressure; because of its higher cartridge pressure, CO2 will “freeze” a lot more... The reason why latex sealants solidify when using CO2 cartridges is a physical one; it’s the big thermal shock, which often initiates the polymerization of the sealant. To avoid it, it’s normally sufficient to put the valve at 12-o’clock prior to inflation and let the sealant flow down to the 6-o’clock area, so that it won’t be directly hit by the cold gas. Also, reducing the inflation speed (most CO2 adapters allow it these days) will prevent dropping the temperature too much, good for the sealant … and good for your hands, if you’re not wearing gloves.— Alberto De Gioannini, Founder, Effetto Mariposa Sagl”
From Stan’s:
“...CO2 will get you out of the woods, but we found it reduced the life of the sealant.— Peter Kastner, System Manager, Stan’s NOTUBES”
From Effetto Mariposa:
The expansion of a gas is an endothermic reaction (brutally said, it “sucks” heat) and the magnitude of the temperature drop is related to the initial gas pressure; because of its higher cartridge pressure, CO2 will “freeze” a lot more... The reason why latex sealants solidify when using CO2 cartridges is a physical one; it’s the big thermal shock, which often initiates the polymerization of the sealant. To avoid it, it’s normally sufficient to put the valve at 12-o’clock prior to inflation and let the sealant flow down to the 6-o’clock area, so that it won’t be directly hit by the cold gas. Also, reducing the inflation speed (most CO2 adapters allow it these days) will prevent dropping the temperature too much, good for the sealant … and good for your hands, if you’re not wearing gloves.— Alberto De Gioannini, Founder, Effetto Mariposa Sagl”
From Stan’s:
“...CO2 will get you out of the woods, but we found it reduced the life of the sealant.— Peter Kastner, System Manager, Stan’s NOTUBES”
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07-13-20, 10:00 PM
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From Stan’s:
“...CO2 will get you out of the woods, but we found it reduced the life of the sealant.— Peter Kastner, System Manager, Stan’s NOTUBES”
“...CO2 will get you out of the woods, but we found it reduced the life of the sealant.— Peter Kastner, System Manager, Stan’s NOTUBES”
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07-13-20, 10:30 PM
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Stan's shows a guy using a cartridge in their Dart video from last year and that's what made me look up what they actually say in their bumf... I had presumed it was just a non-starter. I've also noticed that Orange Seal very carefully says nothing on the topic. Not in their infogram "manual" and not on their FAQ page. You might think it was frequently enough asked.
I carry a little pump and a little bottle of sealant, fwiw. I have levers and a tube too. All of the failures I could find to read about before trying tubeless were people who had just forgotten to keep it fresh, or damage significant enough it would require a patch, so that seemed like a realistic kit. They are all getting neglected down at the bottom of the frame bag. Usually you can tell it's getting dry because the tire starts losing air, and you deal with it at home before it's a problem on the road or trail.
I carry a little pump and a little bottle of sealant, fwiw. I have levers and a tube too. All of the failures I could find to read about before trying tubeless were people who had just forgotten to keep it fresh, or damage significant enough it would require a patch, so that seemed like a realistic kit. They are all getting neglected down at the bottom of the frame bag. Usually you can tell it's getting dry because the tire starts losing air, and you deal with it at home before it's a problem on the road or trail.
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Last edited by Darth Lefty; 07-13-20 at 10:56 PM.
07-13-20, 10:48 PM
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07-14-20, 06:40 AM
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I've done this. But, to be on the safe side, I do it with the tire dry to seat the tire beads. Then I release all of the CO2 and unscrew the valve core (keeping tire beads seated) and inject sealant through the valve.
07-14-20, 08:24 AM
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I can’t find anything that says that the polymerization is an acidic process nor that it is catalyzed by acid. I really doubt that the problem is chemical. It’s physical...a dissolution problem...caused by a bit of synergism between the CO2 and the propylene glycol. Both dissolve through the rubber but put them together and the process is likely speeded up due to CO2’s known properties with rubber.
In the rest of the quote above, Stan’s does suggest using butane for seating the tire. Butane doesn’t have the rubber solubility problems that CO2 does.
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07-14-20, 09:17 AM
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interesting, From a link to a chemistry site
The permeability of a gas through rubber depends mainly on its diffusivity and solubility in rubber.
CO2 has a significantly higher solubility in rubber than O2 and N2, whereas the diffusion coefficients differ not that much.
The result is that carbon dioxide passes ordinary rubber about 5 times faster than oxygen and about 15 times faster than nitrogen [1, 2]
CO2 has a significantly higher solubility in rubber than O2 and N2, whereas the diffusion coefficients differ not that much.
The result is that carbon dioxide passes ordinary rubber about 5 times faster than oxygen and about 15 times faster than nitrogen [1, 2]
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07-14-20, 12:00 PM
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interesting, From a link to a chemistry site
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07-14-20, 01:03 PM
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Latex coagulates naturally. It's a defense mechanism of flowering plants against insects. The curdled result can be further refined for solid rubber products. As a liquid product it has a little ammonia mixed in to prevent this, and it curdles when the ammonia evaporates out. That's why the home brew recipes contain a tablespoon or something of ammonia.
It's fascinating stuff...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rubber
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_ballgame and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_rubber_balls
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atroci...ngo_Free_State
It's fascinating stuff...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rubber
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_ballgame and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_rubber_balls
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atroci...ngo_Free_State
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Genesis 49:16-17
Last edited by Darth Lefty; 07-14-20 at 01:09 PM.
07-15-20, 08:44 AM
#17
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Latex coagulates naturally. It's a defense mechanism of flowering plants against insects. The curdled result can be further refined for solid rubber products. As a liquid product it has a little ammonia mixed in to prevent this, and it curdles when the ammonia evaporates out. That's why the home brew recipes contain a tablespoon or something of ammonia.
It's fascinating stuff...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rubber
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_ballgame and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_rubber_balls
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atroci...ngo_Free_State
It's fascinating stuff...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latex
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_rubber
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_ballgame and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mesoamerican_rubber_balls
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atroci...ngo_Free_State
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
07-15-20, 09:30 AM
#18
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i've heard it's best to rotate the valve to it's highest point before using co2, so the majority of the sealant is at the other side of the tire, and less likely to be affected.
seems logical...
seems logical...
07-15-20, 02:29 PM
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@cyccommute check this out. Several grades. The homebrewers are likely using ammonia because the alternative is not under their sinks
https://holdenslatex.com/content/sds...atex%20SDS.pdf
Latex
https://holdenslatex.com/content/sds...atex%20SDS.pdf
Latex
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