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How do you convince people you love to use daytime running lights?

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How do you convince people you love to use daytime running lights?

Old 07-05-20, 11:09 AM
  #26  
genec
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Originally Posted by Joe Bikerider View Post
Yes, daytime. I am objecting to the excessively bright lights in the daytime.
How do you deal with that large glowing orb in the sky?
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Old 07-05-20, 11:44 AM
  #27  
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I wear a hat.
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Old 07-05-20, 11:53 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
How do you deal with that large glowing orb in the sky/
Originally Posted by Joe Bikerider View Post
I wear a hat.
Sunvisor or baseball cap under helmet.
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Old 07-05-20, 11:56 AM
  #29  
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I've been using reflective ankle bands for decades. They're at least as attention-commanding as strobe headlights and taillights and far less obnoxious.
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Old 07-05-20, 12:02 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
How do you deal with that large glowing orb in the sky?
That big glowing orb in the sky is usually quite high above my line of sight. When it's not, I wear tinted sunglasses.

Bright daylight running lights coming directly at me is an entirely different kettle of fish especially if that light is on strobe mode.

I wish that people would not make stuff and then market it as absolutely needed in order to be safe on the roads.

To be really safe we'd need four wheels and a metal enclosure to protect us but the weight of that would be so great that we'd need a motor to move it. Gee, I think I've just described the automobile. No one has ever been hurt in an automobile have they? And they have BIG daytime running lights. ;<)

Like I said in another post, there's a company that sells really bright strobe lights at various recreational tours I've been at here in South Ontario, Canada, and those lights are so bright they're obnoxious even in daytime.

I feel sorry for those bicyclists who live in areas where bicycling on a road is so dangerous.

Cheers
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Old 07-05-20, 02:27 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
That big glowing orb in the sky is usually quite high above my line of sight. When it's not, I wear tinted sunglasses.

Bright daylight running lights coming directly at me is an entirely different kettle of fish especially if that light is on strobe mode.

I wish that people would not make stuff and then market it as absolutely needed in order to be safe on the roads.

To be really safe we'd need four wheels and a metal enclosure to protect us but the weight of that would be so great that we'd need a motor to move it. Gee, I think I've just described the automobile. No one has ever been hurt in an automobile have they? And they have BIG daytime running lights. ;<

Like I said in another post, there's a company that sells really bright strobe lights at various recreational tours I've been at here in South Ontario, Canada, and those lights are so bright they're obnoxious even in daytime.

I feel sorry for those bicyclists who live in areas where bicycling on a road is so dangerous.

Cheers
It's not the cycling that is dangerous... it's the other road users.

Guess I have never seen a strobe that bright during the day.

I like a flashing light during the day as it catches attention of drivers that really are not looking for you at all... and where traffic is moving at 45MPH, and higher, you do want to be seen, if you are actually sharing the road.

I also like an irregular flashing pattern...

I'd love to know about these too bright to look at in daylight strobes... just so I DON'T buy one. I use an old Niterider system that honestly has served me quite well. I have replaced one of the lamps and the battery, and it does have a flash mode... but these are not xenon tubes.... just simple halogens. (yeah, that old). I don't flash at night. For rear lighting I use an LED blinky, but also that Niterider steady light, and a small blinky on the back of my helmet... that 3 light pattern just makes me more noticeable, and the steady red makes me easy to see.

But again... I have never seen a day light strobe that I could not look at... I suppose it is possible; I have seen camera flashes in daylight that made me blink.
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Old 07-05-20, 03:09 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
It's not the cycling that is dangerous... it's the other road users.

Guess I have never seen a strobe that bright during the day.

I like a flashing light during the day as it catches attention of drivers that really are not looking for you at all... and where traffic is moving at 45MPH, and higher, you do want to be seen, if you are actually sharing the road.

I also like an irregular flashing pattern...

I'd love to know about these too bright to look at in daylight strobes... just so I DON'T buy one. I use an old Niterider system that honestly has served me quite well. I have replaced one of the lamps and the battery, and it does have a flash mode... but these are not xenon tubes.... just simple halogens. (yeah, that old). I don't flash at night. For rear lighting I use an LED blinky, but also that Niterider steady light, and a small blinky on the back of my helmet... that 3 light pattern just makes me more noticeable, and the steady red makes me easy to see.

But again... I have never seen a day light strobe that I could not look at... I suppose it is possible; I have seen camera flashes in daylight that made me blink.
The thing is that flashing lights or pulsing lights are not the same as strobe light mode and thus those other two are not nearly as annoying/obnoxious as a strob light is.

Cheers
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Old 07-05-20, 03:25 PM
  #33  
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Well the OP is MIA.
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Old 07-05-20, 06:59 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by genec View Post
How do you deal with that large glowing orb in the sky?

The issue with strobing on a MUP is that it is strobing and it is pointed directly at the oncoming cyclist at very close range. The sun does neither of those.

There was a plague of these things on MA MUPs a couple years ago, and they're really disorienting.


​​​​
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Old 07-06-20, 08:44 AM
  #35  
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No one should use strobes at any time for any reason. Wait, I take that back, the strobing tac light mounted to my Glock is very helpful in disorienting an aggressor.

Strobes are illegal because they are a bad idea.

Automobiles have a list of regulations on lights to keep them from blinding other drivers. Bike lights are pretty much unregulated, it would be nice if we could keep things that way. Do you really want yearly inspections on bicycles?

Don't be a bike light bully. More is not always better.

https://crosscut.com/2013/11/bicycle...linking-lights
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Old 07-06-20, 07:26 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by lyf View Post
Would love to hear tips and links to research. I've seen a few studies on daytime running lights reducing accidents in motorcycles, cars, and bicycles. It is interesting how they do the studies -- because the argument is always that having lights on may make someone drive more safely.

It's taken time but I have convinced a few cyclists to spend more money on ultra-bright front lights (daytime, 1000+ lumen flashing) and rear lights (300 lumen) and have them on at all hours of the day.

One argument that works is showing before and after photos of a cyclist in shadows (whether a building or tree shadow). There is a clear difference in visibility, and it's obvious you can't plan in advance at high speeds if you hit shadows and don't know what's behind you. It is too much cognitive load, so worth spending the extra money up front to feel safer should you happen to bike into shadows.

It can feel wimpy to have lights on all the time, so what have you found works for convincing people you love to get that added bump in safety? This can elicit strong emotions so that's why I'm trying to figure out softer ways to have this conversation and hopefully we might save some lives!
In general, it's not hard for attentive motorists to see cyclists during daylight hours and good visibility. Even if cyclists are in shadows or there is a low hanging sun. Bright colors and lights are just ways to try to draw the attention of motorists who are not tuned into their surroundings. Cyclists will arrive at different places in their efforts to enhance their conspicuity to try to capture the attention of distracted drivers, and it's not my place to convince them to do otherwise. Every day across this country people have accidents with tractor trailer rigs when they "didn't see them." I am not going to try to convince truck drivers to hang a disco ball on the front of their rigs or paint them neon colors.
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Old 07-06-20, 10:15 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by dragoonO1 View Post
Love is the reason. The OP states that they want to save the life of their loved one(s), hence promoting their safety in the form of DRL presumably for the purpose of reducing risks of collisions or whatnot.
All the people I know that cycle are still alive decades later and I've never said word one to them about DRL. Small sample size, I know, but I'm just sayin' ...
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Old 07-07-20, 12:01 PM
  #38  
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Thanks for all the input!! This is very helpful.

Glad I struck a nerve with the strobe setting on daytime running lights.

It still seems like without the strobe setting, this is a cheap way to save some lives.

I'm of two minds on the strobe setting: I get blinded regularly in NYC after dark by strobes, and call people out regularly on strobes that are too bright.

But I have never had this issue in the daytime after a decade of city riding (but maybe 100-500 incidents at night with too-bright strobes).

It would be fun to collect data on this to see the rate of accidents and how reliably it goes down with daytime running lights!

Originally Posted by bobwysiwyg View Post
Why is it necessary to convince anyone one way or the other?
It seems like the ethical thing to do? If there's a 1/1000 chance you save someone's life for a couple of bucks because you convinced them to use DRL one time, why not take it? Everyone's threshold is different (e.g. if you see someone about to jump off a bridge, there might be a 99% chance they die unless you talk... do you talk? This is the same but on a different scale...)

Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Well the OP is MIA.
My bad! (I hit the post limit for 24 hours -- should be back on now
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Old 07-07-20, 01:14 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post

Going to use a strobe light? Please turn it on, walk away from your bike a bit and then turn and look back at it to see just how it can affect approaching traffic.
Not a bad idea. I think I will. I don't think my blinking light is bright enough to be annoying but I don't know that for sure. I am thinking it is around 400 lumens on blinky mode.
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Old 07-07-20, 01:29 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by lyf View Post
It seems like the ethical thing to do? If there's a 1/1000 chance you save someone's life for a couple of bucks because you convinced them to use DRL one time, why not take it? Everyone's threshold is different (e.g. if you see someone about to jump off a bridge, there might be a 99% chance they die unless you talk... do you talk? This is the same but on a different scale...)
Well, I agree, very different scale and set of circumstances. BTW I'm in no way challenging the light thing at all. I happen to ride with them myself, always!
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Old 07-07-20, 08:27 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Pop N Wood View Post
No one should use strobes at any time for any reason. Wait, I take that back, the strobing tac light mounted to my Glock is very helpful in disorienting an aggressor.

Strobes are illegal because they are a bad idea.

Automobiles have a list of regulations on lights to keep them from blinding other drivers. Bike lights are pretty much unregulated, it would be nice if we could keep things that way. Do you really want yearly inspections on bicycles?

Don't be a bike light bully. More is not always better.

https://crosscut.com/2013/11/bicycle...linking-lights
Not sure what you meant by strobes, but lights sold in America with a flash pattern, what some will call strobe, is not illegal, if they were illegal the light manufactures would not be able to put that function on the light; like in the UK, flashing lights of any kind, front or rear, is illegal, so lights sold there do have a flash function.

The California code says this: California Vehicle Code Division 11 Chapter 1 Article 4 Section 21201 (d) covers the requirements for cyclists when riding in darkness. It states:
A bicycle operated during darkness upon a highway, a sidewalk where bicycle operation is not prohibited by the local jurisdiction, or a bikeway, as defined in Section 890.4 of the Streets and Highways Code, shall be equipped with all of the following:

(1) A lamp emitting a white light that, while the bicycle is in motion, illuminates the highway, sidewalk, or bikeway in front of the bicyclist and is visible from a distance of 300 feet in front and from the sides of the bicycle.

(2) A red reflector on the rear that shall be visible from a distance of 500 feet to the rear when directly in front of lawful upper beams of headlamps on a motor vehicle.

(3) A white or yellow reflector on each pedal, shoe, or ankle visible from the front and rear of the bicycle from a distance of 200 feet.

(4) A white or yellow reflector on each side forward of the center of the bicycle, and a white or red reflector on each side to the rear of the center of the bicycle, except that bicycles that are equipped with reflectorized tires on the front and the rear need not be equipped with these side reflectors.
No mention of flashing lights.

You're from Maryland, so I looked that up:

2010 Maryland Code
TRANSPORTATION
TITLE 21 - VEHICLE LAWS - RULES OF THE ROAD
Subtitle 12 - Operation of Bicycles and Play Vehicles
Section 21-1207 - Lamps and other equipment on bicycles and motor scooters.

21-1207. Lamps and other equipment on bicycles and motor scooters.




(a) Lamp and reflector.-

(1) If a bicycle or a motor scooter is used on a highway at any time when, due to insufficient light or unfavorable atmospheric conditions, persons and vehicles on the highway are not clearly discernible at a distance of 1,000 feet, the bicycle or motor scooter shall be equipped:

(i) On the front, with a lamp that emits a white light visible from a distance of at least 500 feet to the front; and

(ii) On the rear, with a red reflector of a type approved by the Administration and visible from all distances from 600 feet to 100 feet to the rear when directly in front of lawful upper beams of head lamps on a motor vehicle.

(2) A bicycle or bicyclist may be equipped with a functioning lamp that acts as a reflector and emits a red light or a flashing amber light visible from a distance of 500 feet to the rear instead of or in addition to the red reflector required by paragraph (1) of this subsection.

(b) Bell.- Subject to subsection (c) of this section, a person may operate a bicycle or a motor scooter that is equipped with a bell or other device capable of giving a signal audible for a distance of at least 100 feet.

(c) Sirens or whistles.- A bicycle or motor scooter may not be equipped with nor may any person use on a bicycle any siren or whistle.

(d) Brake.- Every bicycle and motor scooter shall be equipped with a braking system capable of stopping from a speed of 10 miles per hour within 15 feet on dry, level, clean pavement.

Just like the California code, Maryland doesn't say anything about strobes.

I don't want to waste my time looking at the other 50 states codes, but I would like to know where you found that strobes were illegal.
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Old 07-08-20, 05:26 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by greatscott View Post
I don't want to waste my time looking at the other 50 states codes, but I would like to know where you found that strobes were illegal.
The one for Washington state is in the link from my post that you quoted.

i would copy it here for yoiu but figure you might learn something if you actually read the link
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Old 07-11-20, 07:13 PM
  #43  
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Maybe it is because cycle but I see a cyclist before I see any lights.
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Old 07-11-20, 07:18 PM
  #44  
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I ask this in all seriousness to understand. What is the difference between a "strobe" and " blinking? "
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Old 07-12-20, 05:54 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by bobwysiwyg View Post
I ask this in all seriousness to understand. What is the difference between a "strobe" and " blinking? "
'Strobe type lights' flash much faster than do 'flashing' or 'blinking' lights or 'pulsing lights'. It's that speed of flashing with such a short interval that makes a 'strobe' bicycle light illegal in many areas.

Cheers
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Old 07-14-20, 05:12 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by bobwysiwyg View Post
I ask this in all seriousness to understand. What is the difference between a "strobe" and " blinking? "

The faster the flash rate, the harder it is for your pupils to adjust. If the strobe is too fast, your eyes are never properly adjusted, so you get disoriented.
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Old 07-14-20, 05:17 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by greatscott View Post
Not sure what you meant by strobes, but lights sold in America with a flash pattern, what some will call strobe, is not illegal, if they were illegal the light manufactures would not be able to put that function on the light; like in the UK, flashing lights of any kind, front or rear, is illegal, so lights sold there do have a flash function.

The California code says this: California Vehicle Code Division 11 Chapter 1 Article 4 Section 21201 (d) covers the requirements for cyclists when riding in darkness. It states:
A bicycle operated during darkness upon a highway, a sidewalk where bicycle operation is not prohibited by the local jurisdiction, or a bikeway, as defined in Section 890.4 of the Streets and Highways Code, shall be equipped with all of the following:

(1) A lamp emitting a white light that, while the bicycle is in motion, illuminates the highway, sidewalk, or bikeway in front of the bicyclist and is visible from a distance of 300 feet in front and from the sides of the bicycle.

(2) A red reflector on the rear that shall be visible from a distance of 500 feet to the rear when directly in front of lawful upper beams of headlamps on a motor vehicle.

(3) A white or yellow reflector on each pedal, shoe, or ankle visible from the front and rear of the bicycle from a distance of 200 feet.

(4) A white or yellow reflector on each side forward of the center of the bicycle, and a white or red reflector on each side to the rear of the center of the bicycle, except that bicycles that are equipped with reflectorized tires on the front and the rear need not be equipped with these side reflectors.
No mention of flashing lights.

You're from Maryland, so I looked that up:

2010 Maryland Code
TRANSPORTATION
TITLE 21 - VEHICLE LAWS - RULES OF THE ROAD
Subtitle 12 - Operation of Bicycles and Play Vehicles
Section 21-1207 - Lamps and other equipment on bicycles and motor scooters.

21-1207. Lamps and other equipment on bicycles and motor scooters.




(a) Lamp and reflector.-

(1) If a bicycle or a motor scooter is used on a highway at any time when, due to insufficient light or unfavorable atmospheric conditions, persons and vehicles on the highway are not clearly discernible at a distance of 1,000 feet, the bicycle or motor scooter shall be equipped:

(i) On the front, with a lamp that emits a white light visible from a distance of at least 500 feet to the front; and

(ii) On the rear, with a red reflector of a type approved by the Administration and visible from all distances from 600 feet to 100 feet to the rear when directly in front of lawful upper beams of head lamps on a motor vehicle.

(2) A bicycle or bicyclist may be equipped with a functioning lamp that acts as a reflector and emits a red light or a flashing amber light visible from a distance of 500 feet to the rear instead of or in addition to the red reflector required by paragraph (1) of this subsection.

(b) Bell.- Subject to subsection (c) of this section, a person may operate a bicycle or a motor scooter that is equipped with a bell or other device capable of giving a signal audible for a distance of at least 100 feet.

(c) Sirens or whistles.- A bicycle or motor scooter may not be equipped with nor may any person use on a bicycle any siren or whistle.

(d) Brake.- Every bicycle and motor scooter shall be equipped with a braking system capable of stopping from a speed of 10 miles per hour within 15 feet on dry, level, clean pavement.

Just like the California code, Maryland doesn't say anything about strobes.

I don't want to waste my time looking at the other 50 states codes, but I would like to know where you found that strobes were illegal.

It could easily be argued that a strobe by itself is inadequate by the California code at night. It's required to illuminate the road while the bike is in motion, and a strobe is, by definition, off about half of the time.

​I don't care if it's legal, strobes suck as a safety device.

Last edited by livedarklions; 07-14-20 at 05:20 AM.
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Old 07-14-20, 05:30 AM
  #48  
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I've worked in manufacturing for many years. Anytime I've worked on a project including strobed lighting it's always been required to supply signage and some type of barrier to minimize the impact of the lighting being directly visible to passers by. The justification I've always heard was photosensitive epilepsy, although I would simply find it annoying as hell if it was in my face all day.
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Old 07-15-20, 04:17 AM
  #49  
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Strobe lights

We all have our personal hobby horses, and this is NOT one of mine. I won't ever stop using blinking lights on my bike, day and night.

I don't have anything but anecdotal evidence on this, but I believe that blinking increase visibility (not strobing lights, and certainly not blinding lights) . During the day, blinking lights are unusual so they catch motorists' eye against a chaotic background of shiny things. At night, the same, except of course that if you're riding anywhere in the urban and semi-urban environment, the steady blinking lights catch motorists' eyes against the symphony of other points of light. At dusk or in bright sun/shade situations, it's even more important, because the sun blinds the motorists (and me!) to what's in the shade.

But I don't think that the lights have to be blinding strobes, and I don't think that they have to be pointed up. A blinking headlight aimed at the pavement in the near/middle distance in front of the front tire is sufficient, in my opinion. So at night I used two lights: a headlight, aimed at the road within my stopping distance, and a blinking light aimed a bit further out. No one will ever be able to convince me that blinking lights don't increase motorists' awareness without actual scientific studies. I can tell you that any boater at night will tell you that it's the steadily blinking light that stands out against a dark background punctuated by innumerable lights. It's more true in an urban setting at night with all kinds of lights, including cars.

Finally, I just don't believe that blinking lights that we're talking about trigger epilepsy or vertigo. Even if they did, I'm certain that the incidence of "unseen" cyclists being run over is far higher than bicycle-light-strobes-induced epilepsy. Of the two, I'll take my chances with vertigo and epilepsy. Both are generally non-fatal.
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Old 07-15-20, 04:44 AM
  #50  
livedarklions
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Originally Posted by Elbeinlaw View Post
We all have our personal hobby horses, and this is NOT one of mine. I won't ever stop using blinking lights on my bike, day and night.

I don't have anything but anecdotal evidence on this, but I believe that blinking increase visibility (not strobing lights, and certainly not blinding lights) . During the day, blinking lights are unusual so they catch motorists' eye against a chaotic background of shiny things. At night, the same, except of course that if you're riding anywhere in the urban and semi-urban environment, the steady blinking lights catch motorists' eyes against the symphony of other points of light. At dusk or in bright sun/shade situations, it's even more important, because the sun blinds the motorists (and me!) to what's in the shade.

But I don't think that the lights have to be blinding strobes, and I don't think that they have to be pointed up. A blinking headlight aimed at the pavement in the near/middle distance in front of the front tire is sufficient, in my opinion. So at night I used two lights: a headlight, aimed at the road within my stopping distance, and a blinking light aimed a bit further out. No one will ever be able to convince me that blinking lights don't increase motorists' awareness without actual scientific studies. I can tell you that any boater at night will tell you that it's the steadily blinking light that stands out against a dark background punctuated by innumerable lights. It's more true in an urban setting at night with all kinds of lights, including cars.

Finally, I just don't believe that blinking lights that we're talking about trigger epilepsy or vertigo. Even if they did, I'm certain that the incidence of "unseen" cyclists being run over is far higher than bicycle-light-strobes-induced epilepsy. Of the two, I'll take my chances with vertigo and epilepsy. Both are generally non-fatal.

I don't think anyone is making those arguments against blinking lights as opposed to strobing. If you feel safer using them, that's probably reason enough. It's the strobes that I think should be illegal at this point.
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