Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Road Cycling
Reload this Page >

So ... what are the latest thoughts on carbon clinchers and rim brakes?

Notices
Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

So ... what are the latest thoughts on carbon clinchers and rim brakes?

Old 09-17-17, 09:48 PM
  #1  
Maelochs
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Maelochs's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Posts: 15,452

Bikes: 2015 Workswell 066, 2017 Workswell 093, 2014 Dawes Sheila, 1983 Cannondale 500, 1984 Raleigh Olympian, 2007 Cannondale Rize 4, 2017 Fuji Sportif 1 LE

Mentioned: 144 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7628 Post(s)
Liked 3,448 Times in 1,822 Posts
So ... what are the latest thoughts on carbon clinchers and rim brakes?

I am considering building a lightweight endurance-geometry frame which would be more comfortable (more relaxed riding position, wider tires) for longer rides than my Workswell 066.

The question I am facing is rim brakes and deepish carbon clinchers with potentially questionable braking ability and the potential of wearing out the (rather more expensive) rim or disc brakes, in which case I could offset the weight lost with CF wheels with discs and heavier calipers. (I always seek to avoid unnecessary weight loss.)

With CF rims I can get lighter wheels for the same money--but light wheels which don't stop or don't last .... not such a bargain.

So ... does anyone here ride CF rims with caliper brakes, and how bad is it/are they?
Maelochs is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 02:48 AM
  #2  
redfooj
pluralis majestatis
 
redfooj's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: you rope
Posts: 4,206

Bikes: a DuhRosa

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 537 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
I've been riding them for long enough I've forgotten what alloy braking is like.

Whatever adjustments I needed to make is bedded in my head, so I'm never thinking or conscious of "carbon braking" when riding. Except on extended descent when i do try to pulse it rather than keep the pressure constant.

And obviously in the wet it's pretty atrocious.

Otherwise, in 95% of riding condition, it's all gravy. Wouldn't hesitate to buy more carbon wheels
redfooj is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 03:15 AM
  #3  
dim
Senior Member
 
dim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Cambridge UK
Posts: 1,703

Bikes: Trek Emonda SL6 .... Miyata One Thousand

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 29 Times in 22 Posts
I had a fairly good budget and I was in a similar predicament, and really wanted aero carbon clincher wheels ...

after reading how poor the braking is in the wet, I changed my mind. Living in the UK, we have several months of wet, and I also wanted wheels that would be OK for climbing

so, I ended up having a custom wheelset built by my LBS. I wanted the option of using clinchers aswell as tubeless and I wanted good strong rims.

I ended up getting HED Belgium Plus rims, laced with Chris King R45 hubs (the ceramic bearing upgrade), and Sapiem spokes. I am currently using Specialized Turbo Cotton clinchers with these, but will be getting 2017 IRC Formula Pro RBCC tubeless road tyres at the end of the month, which will hopefully allow me to have hassle free long rides during autumn/winter.

I may still get a used set of aero carbon clincher wheels for my 2nd bike (daily commuter), but I will look at ones that have the aluminium braking strip

If you are going to spend serious money on new wheels, seriously think about getting tubeless ready rims ... you have the option to run normal clinchers or tubeless
dim is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 04:39 AM
  #4  
kbarch
Senior Member
 
kbarch's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 4,286
Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Although I only ride carbon rims 20-30% of the time, like @redfooj, I'd say the adjustments I make in braking are pretty well embedded and I don't notice most of the time, and they aren't so great in the wet. I wouldn't say they're "atrocious," though. (Cosmic Carbone rims with Giant TRP brakes & Swiss Stop pads for reference).

I think the idea that they don't last as long is mostly theoretical, but I guess you'd know how likely you are to replace things before they actually wear out.

As much as I like my aero bike, if I were to build a new bike for long rides, I'd go lightweight over aero every time, and I'd get something like Campag's Neutron Ultras, or, more likely, build up something similar. Their Bora One 50mm carbon clinchers may be only nominally heavier, but they are crazy more expensive.
I do appreciate the advantages of an aero bike, but more for shorter, faster rides; the longer the ride, the more important comfort becomes, and when it gets windy, aero is a distinct DISadvantage.

Last edited by kbarch; 09-18-17 at 04:48 AM.
kbarch is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 04:51 AM
  #5  
rubiksoval
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444

Bikes: bikes

Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times in 711 Posts
Sounds like it might be worth investigating a pair of Hed Jet 6s.

Can be had for under a grand throughout the year from online retailers.
rubiksoval is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 04:52 AM
  #6  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,611

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4717 Post(s)
Liked 1,526 Times in 997 Posts
So, should OP consider the hybrid CF/Alloy models out there? Where you give up some weight savings, but get aero, and get lower pricing, but could still use calipers.
eg. Campy Bullet, Flo 60, etc..
Sy Reene is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 04:57 AM
  #7  
Sy Reene
Advocatus Diaboli
 
Sy Reene's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,611

Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX

Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4717 Post(s)
Liked 1,526 Times in 997 Posts
Originally Posted by rubiksoval
Sounds like it might be worth investigating a pair of Hed Jet 6s.

Can be had for under a grand throughout the year from online retailers.
Those are nice! I'm struck finding that the 90psi tire inflation limit in the spec is a bit strange, isn't it?
Sy Reene is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 08:29 AM
  #8  
dim
Senior Member
 
dim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Cambridge UK
Posts: 1,703

Bikes: Trek Emonda SL6 .... Miyata One Thousand

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 29 Times in 22 Posts
here's a good link for tubeless ready rims/wheels:

141 tubeless wheelsets ? the most complete listing anywhere of your choices in new technology hoops | road.cc
dim is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 08:58 AM
  #9  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 23,208
Mentioned: 89 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 18883 Post(s)
Liked 10,645 Times in 6,054 Posts
I must need more coffee this morning, I thought I just read that people are building new bikes with rim brakes.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 09:07 AM
  #10  
noodle soup
Senior Member
 
noodle soup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 8,922
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4717 Post(s)
Liked 1,882 Times in 998 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs
I am considering building a lightweight endurance-geometry frame which would be more comfortable (more relaxed riding position, wider tires) for longer rides than my Workswell 066.

The question I am facing is rim brakes and deepish carbon clinchers with potentially questionable braking ability and the potential ofwearing out the (rather more expensive) rim or disc brakes, in which case I could offset the weight lost with CF wheels with discs and heavier calipers. (I always seek to avoid unnecessary weight loss.)

With CF rims I can get lighter wheels for the same money--but light wheels which don't stop or don't last .... not such a bargain.

So ... does anyone here ride CF rims with caliper brakes, and how bad is it/are they?
Rim wear isn't the issue that some people make it out to be.

Yes CF hoops will wear fairly quickly in wet/gritty conditions, but no more quickly than aluminum hoops in the same conditions.
noodle soup is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 09:11 AM
  #11  
noodle soup
Senior Member
 
noodle soup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 8,922
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4717 Post(s)
Liked 1,882 Times in 998 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
I must need more coffee this morning, I thought I just read that people are building new bikes with rim brakes.
Yes, it's true. Many cyclists have no need for disc brakes on road bikes.
noodle soup is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 09:41 AM
  #12  
Bandera
~>~
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: TX Hill Country
Posts: 5,932
Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1112 Post(s)
Liked 180 Times in 119 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs
So ... does anyone here ride CF rims with caliper brakes, and how bad is it/are they?
I've been running the low spoke count Shimano RS-81 C24 wheels w/ a composite AL/Carbon construction w/ zero issues in braking or anything else.
Light weight, 16/21 drill, reliable smooth cup/cone hubs and an AL braking surface w/ no need to switch brake pads on wheel changes.
Take your pick of 24, 35 or 50 rim depth to suit requirements. For LD/FG rides I fit the front on the fixed gear for a mix of 19th & 21st century tech.

-Bandera
Bandera is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 10:11 AM
  #13  
woodcraft
Senior Member
 
woodcraft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 6,016
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 923 Times in 569 Posts
I ride CF wheels pretty much all the time on the road,

& braking is not an issue, wet or dry.

They are tubulars, so heat dissipation and weight are favorable. The 55mm ones are as light as very light alloy clinchers.

In the winter/wet, I'm more concerned w/ tire cuts but if it's really gritty then rim wear is an issue- same for alloy rims and disc pads.

Disagree w/ kbarch about comfort on long rides-

the 55mm wheels are just faster which can mean 1/2 hr less time on the bike over a long day. Not relaxing when it's really windy,

but the 35mm ones gain a little speed and are fine in gusty wind.

I've bought cast-off race wheels for little $ so not the end of the world if they get scratched or wear out.

I would not use carbon clinchers if I lived in Colorado or such.
woodcraft is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 10:31 AM
  #14  
bikebreak
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 878
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 129 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Maelochs

So ... does anyone here ride CF rims with caliper brakes, and how bad is it/are they?


Pretty good, I ride tubulars. They are lighter than equivalent clinchers and you can run higher or lower psi


The Zipp firecrest and newer Easton rims brake nicely, my older Reynolds brake ok but you have to get used to the difference from alloy rims. Swiss stop black prince pads are a nice upgrade
bikebreak is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 10:56 AM
  #15  
awesomeame
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2017
Location: Etobicoke, Ontario, Canada
Posts: 162

Bikes: 2018 Trek Emonda SL w/Vision metron 40 wheelset, ultegra gruppa. 2010 Intense Tracer VP

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 69 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I have no problem with my carbon wheels and direct mount rim brakes. They work awesome! But note I also don't ride in inclement weather

Matt
awesomeame is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 11:27 AM
  #16  
Abe_Froman
Senior Member
 
Abe_Froman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2016
Location: Chicago
Posts: 2,566

Bikes: Marin Four Corners, 1960's Schwinn Racer in middle of restoration, mid 70s Motobecane Grand Touring, various other heaps.

Mentioned: 76 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9347 Post(s)
Liked 57 Times in 51 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
I must need more coffee this morning, I thought I just read that people are building new bikes with rim brakes.
If you don't stop, you don't care about the brakes

In all seriousness though...I've been reading up on this. It seems there is a smallish, but very real and measurable aero penalty for disc brakes. Even if it's just a handful of watts...for my area...I don't see the benefits of disc brakes outweighing even 3-4 watts lost to aerodynamics. Rim brakes (alloy....) are really, really good too.

Is there any drawback to having an aluminum brake track on carbon rims?
Abe_Froman is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 11:32 AM
  #17  
noodle soup
Senior Member
 
noodle soup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 8,922
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4717 Post(s)
Liked 1,882 Times in 998 Posts
Originally Posted by Abe_Froman
Is there any drawback to having an aluminum brake track on carbon rims?
Usually just added weight
noodle soup is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 11:32 AM
  #18  
Bandera
~>~
 
Join Date: Mar 2013
Location: TX Hill Country
Posts: 5,932
Mentioned: 87 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1112 Post(s)
Liked 180 Times in 119 Posts
Originally Posted by Abe_Froman
Is there any drawback to having an aluminum brake track on carbon rims?
Not in my experience, but I use brakes as little as is prudent.
Did you know that brakes will only slow you down?

-Bandera
Bandera is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 11:37 AM
  #19  
superdex
staring at the mountains
 
superdex's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Castle Pines, CO
Posts: 4,560

Bikes: Obed GVR, Fairdale Goodship, Salsa Timberjack 29

Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 394 Post(s)
Liked 197 Times in 112 Posts
Originally Posted by woodcraft
I would not use carbon clinchers if I lived in Colorado or such.
TONS of carbon hoops running around here. Leads me to think they're just fine. (when the budget catches up, I'm heading that way too)
superdex is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 11:50 AM
  #20  
woodcraft
Senior Member
 
woodcraft's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Nor Cal
Posts: 6,016
Mentioned: 17 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1814 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 923 Times in 569 Posts
Good to know.

My thinking is:

- carbon clinchers + long descents = potential heat issues

- carbon clinchers + long ascents = weight issues

- carbon clinchers + disc brakes + long ascents = weight issues
woodcraft is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 12:11 PM
  #21  
noodle soup
Senior Member
 
noodle soup's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 8,922
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4717 Post(s)
Liked 1,882 Times in 998 Posts
Originally Posted by woodcraft

My thinking is:

- carbon clinchers + long descents = potential heat issues
only on long descents that require heavy braking.
noodle soup is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 12:12 PM
  #22  
Dave Mayer
Senior Member
 
Dave Mayer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 2,487
Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1354 Post(s)
Liked 462 Times in 272 Posts
Originally Posted by woodcraft
Good to know.

My thinking is:
- carbon clinchers + long descents = potential heat issues
- carbon clinchers + long ascents = weight issues
- carbon clinchers + disc brakes + long ascents = weight issues
Excellent summary. Clinchers inherently feature a weight penalty, no matter what they are constructed from. Add discs, and you have a double penalty.

I'll add the inflation pressure limitations of clinchers. Inflation pressure pushes the braking tracks on clincher rims apart, which can cause a failure, when the rim splits down the middle. Yes, I've seen it. This is why clincher rims have pressure ratings, unlike tubular rims, which are isolated from inflation pressures.

And, to avoid pinch flats on clinchers, you have to maintain a minimum pressure that is close to the maximum rating. So clinchers have a narrow range of 'operability'. In contrast, in my experience, you can run skinny tubulars at 50psi up to whatever pressures at which the tire explodes. The rim is unaffected..
Dave Mayer is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 12:27 PM
  #23  
bonz50
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2010
Location: Antioch, IL
Posts: 2,330

Bikes: 2013 Synapse 4

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 70 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by woodcraft
Good to know.

- carbon clinchers + disc brakes + long ascents = weight issues
generally agree but will toss in one positive here, no need to worry about braking performance or wear on the rim brake track if you have disc. not a big deal if you ride predominately on clean roads in dry conditions. venture into the wet, unpaved MUP's and general nasty conditions and disc/carbon seems like it would be a better option. personally I was floored at how noticeable the grit was on my AL rims in the wet, seems like every single piece of dust/dirt got onto the brake track and sounded/felt like i was using sandpaper to stop. myself, after that experience, I rethought my desire to have carbon wheels with rim brakes.
bonz50 is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 01:08 PM
  #24  
dim
Senior Member
 
dim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Cambridge UK
Posts: 1,703

Bikes: Trek Emonda SL6 .... Miyata One Thousand

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 29 Times in 22 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
I must need more coffee this morning, I thought I just read that people are building new bikes with rim brakes.
to be honest, that was my thought aswell, but the OP stated that he wanted rim brakes.

Nothing wrong with rim brakes if you use the correct brake pads, but from what I have heard and read, carbon rims with rim brakes in the wet is not good, no matter which pads you use

I've never had a bike with hydraulic disk brakes and thru axles, as my 2 bikes are old. But, if I were to build a new bike from scratch, disc brakes would be a priority
dim is offline  
Old 09-18-17, 01:29 PM
  #25  
dim
Senior Member
 
dim's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Cambridge UK
Posts: 1,703

Bikes: Trek Emonda SL6 .... Miyata One Thousand

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 63 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 29 Times in 22 Posts
Originally Posted by Dave Mayer
Excellent summary. Clinchers inherently feature a weight penalty, no matter what they are constructed from. Add discs, and you have a double penalty.

I'll add the inflation pressure limitations of clinchers. Inflation pressure pushes the braking tracks on clincher rims apart, which can cause a failure, when the rim splits down the middle. Yes, I've seen it. This is why clincher rims have pressure ratings, unlike tubular rims, which are isolated from inflation pressures.

And, to avoid pinch flats on clinchers, you have to maintain a minimum pressure that is close to the maximum rating. So clinchers have a narrow range of 'operability'. In contrast, in my experience, you can run skinny tubulars at 50psi up to whatever pressures at which the tire explodes. The rim is unaffected..
anyone building a new wheelset should seriously consider buying tubeless ready rims .... you can use normal clinchers with tubes or tubeless

a new build, ... get tubeless ready wheels with hydraulic disk brakes and thru axles

tubular will soon die off (like betamax)
dim is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.