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Centerlock disc rotor lockring install dilemma

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Centerlock disc rotor lockring install dilemma

Old 09-15-17, 09:39 AM
  #1  
masi61
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Centerlock disc rotor lockring install dilemma

I'm building a road disc wheelset with White Industries CLD 12 mm through axle hubs. I got my Shimano Dura Ace SM-RT900 rotors that will go with the Dura Ace 9120 hydraulic/mechanical disc brake shifters that I have on order for this build. The White industries CLD hub is 12 mm through axle but I got a Shimano disc lockring in the box that said it is for 15 or 20 mm through axles. Apparently this type is tightened down on the exterior of the lockring with a Shimano Hollowtech bottom bracket wrench. It looked like it would work but when mounted on my Columbus Futura road disc fork the lockring rubs the inside of the fork blade.
So on to the "low profile" lockring that came in the box with the SM-RT900 rotors. It definitely is less chunky and appears much more streamlined in profile so rubbing the inner fork blade is not going to be a problem. Unfortunately, the 12 mm through axle is a little too big in diameter preventing me from getting a hyperglide lockring wrench to stay in contact with the spines long enough to tighten the rotor down before bottoming out. The wrench I am using is a nice "Birzman" 12 mm lockring remover. It seems identical to a similar one available from Park Tools (just this one is silver, their's is Blue ano on the 12 mm protruding part.
There is very little clearance between the top of the splines on the lockring but nothing is rubbing. So, if I'm able to tighten the lockring - everything should be nice and sleek and I suspect will work perfectly. It's just that as it stands now, there is no real obvious way to get a good purchase on the lockring in order to torque it down to the factory spec.

So, with this background stated: what am I to do?

One thought I had was to play around with the inexpensive Birzman lockring tool, using a round grinding stone to hollow out the inside of the tool so that all is left is the splines on the tool. Or, I could remove the axle on the hub, and tighten the lockring (which will now have adequate clearance), then reinstall the 12 mm through axle. I have not had the axle out of these hubs yet so I am not sure if there are conflicts with accessing the set screw on the axle assembly.

Or maybe somebody has encountered these super tight quarter centerlock lockring (or cassette) clearance issues and know of an existing tool maker who markets an ideal tool for this job.

Please feel free to advise on centerlock disc install work arounds you have tried.
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Old 09-15-17, 10:32 AM
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through axle?.. IDK they have a different lock ring (I think) not buying that kind of bike, to have personal experience..

Note; there is a lock ring tool for Shimano cassettes with a center pin, that fits down the QR axle, it should work well, it does for me.
fits on a socket wrench.

What did your bike shop suggest , that they use?

a sleeve spacer for the guide function, like the other kind?





....

Last edited by fietsbob; 09-15-17 at 10:37 AM.
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Old 09-15-17, 12:48 PM
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So if I understand the issue, the axle ends, i.e. the "sleeve" that the through axle slides through, has too large of an outside diameter, so that the Birzman tool can't slide down over it to engage the splines on the lockring? You could try one of Park's lockring tools, like the FR-5.2 They're supposed to have extra thin walls so that they can fit over QR skewer locknuts. It might have enough clearance to fit over the White axle ends. You can also ask White if they know of a tool that will work. Or try to find a different brand of "outside spline" lockring that is less chunky and works with your fork.
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Old 09-15-17, 12:57 PM
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Well I tried the Park Tool FR-5G (the one with the pin) and there is not enough clearance. I called White Industries yesterday and they told me to check with my LBS.
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Old 09-15-17, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
Well I tried the Park Tool FR-5G (the one with the pin) and there is not enough clearance. I called White Industries yesterday and they told me to check with my LBS.
Yes but I was wondering if the one without any guide pins (i.e. just the plain FR-5.2 without any G or GT suffixes) might have extra thin walls in order to slip over the QR locknut. Bringing it to the LBS is probably your best option at this point as they should have access to different tools and lockrings to try out.
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Old 09-15-17, 02:31 PM
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[QUOTE=Metaluna;19863968]Yes but I was wondering if the one without any guide pins (i.e. just the plain FR-5.2 without any G or GT suffixes) might have extra thin walls in order to slip over the QR locknut. Bringing it to the LBS is probably your best option at this point as they should have access to different tools and lockrings to try out.[/QUOTE

Looking at pictures of the plain FR-5.2 online, it appears the walls would be about the same but it is definitely worth a trip to the LBS to inquire about alternate tools or alternate lockrings.
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Old 09-15-17, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
Or, I could remove the axle on the hub, and tighten the lockring (which will now have adequate clearance), then reinstall the 12 mm through axle.
This ^ there's no need to have the thru axle in the hub when tightening the rotor, remove it and there's no problem.
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Old 09-16-17, 06:57 AM
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I had the same issue with the White CLD hubs on a Boyd wheel set. White's 12x100 hubs require use of Shimano's large lock rings which then jammed on my 2017 Trek Domane disc front fork. White was aware of this problem with some frame sets but apparently didn't advise anyone (still isn't a note on the vendor sites of potential clearance problems). The small lock ring needed to allow frame clearance can not be tighten as you have found out. The axle must be removed to allow the small lock ring to be tighten then reinstalled (pretty lame). However the standard White 12x100 hub axle end cap's have a flange on them which will prevent reinstallation of the axle after you installed the small lock ring! White's solution was to ship me a modified axle without the end cap flange which allows reinstallation of the axle after tightening the small lock ring. While a functional solution it still requires axle removal to install a CLD front rotor plus the removal of the end cap flange could allow water & dirt to more easily access the axle bearings. White said they were working on new axle to correct this problem but that was 5 months ago.
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Old 09-16-17, 02:29 PM
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Originally Posted by bikesailor View Post
I had the same issue with the White CLD hubs on a Boyd wheel set. White's 12x100 hubs require use of Shimano's large lock rings which then jammed on my 2017 Trek Domane disc front fork. White was aware of this problem with some frame sets but apparently didn't advise anyone (still isn't a note on the vendor sites of potential clearance problems). The small lock ring needed to allow frame clearance can not be tighten as you have found out. The axle must be removed to allow the small lock ring to be tighten then reinstalled (pretty lame). However the standard White 12x100 hub axle end cap's have a flange on them which will prevent reinstallation of the axle after you installed the small lock ring! White's solution was to ship me a modified axle without the end cap flange which allows reinstallation of the axle after tightening the small lock ring. While a functional solution it still requires axle removal to install a CLD front rotor plus the removal of the end cap flange could allow water & dirt to more easily access the axle bearings. White said they were working on new axle to correct this problem but that was 5 months ago.
Wow - thanks for your detailed response. I was afraid of the exact thing when I looked at the arrangement. When I called White Industries they didn't mention that this issue has come up before. I may call them back and inquire about a re-designed axle. In the meantime, I guess I will remove the axle on my front hub and study up on how the whole thing goes together. I did notice a small hole that appears to be for putting a small Allen wrench into in order to remove a set screw. Once the set screw is removed does the axle then slide right out?

Also, in the meantime... a HG/Centerlock lockring tool may get sacrificed as I mount a round grinding stone in my drill press and try to "hollow out" an existing lockring tool. I know, it probably won't work but I think it might be a worthy cause to try.
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Old 09-16-17, 03:39 PM
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The White axle end cap has two 2mm hex set screws that secure it to the axle. You rotate the hub to line up the holes then loosen the set screws and the end cap will slide off. White's web sit explains the end cap removal procedure. I don't think grinding down a lock ring tool will work as it needs to apply 45nm of torque to set the rotors. I was thinking of trying to drill two 2mm dia holes in the small locking ring and then tightening it using a spanner but then this isn't really my problem to solve. Maybe they shipped your endcap without the flange otherwise get White to ship you a modified endcap without the flange. Good luck.
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Old 09-17-17, 05:00 AM
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Originally Posted by bikesailor View Post
The White axle end cap has two 2mm hex set screws that secure it to the axle. You rotate the hub to line up the holes then loosen the set screws and the end cap will slide off. White's web sit explains the end cap removal procedure. I don't think grinding down a lock ring tool will work as it needs to apply 45nm of torque to set the rotors. I was thinking of trying to drill two 2mm dia holes in the small locking ring and then tightening it using a spanner but then this isn't really my problem to solve. Maybe they shipped your endcap without the flange otherwise get White to ship you a modified endcap without the flange. Good luck.
Thanks for your help. The locking ring that came with my rotors is made of aluminum so I'm a bit wary about using a pin tool on it - this worth a try though, maybe a steel lockring from a cassette that is done would fit. It would hold up and the 2mm holes wouldn't elongate.
You mention a flange on the endcaps: my endcaps go out straight, so I'm not sure.
(I'll need to take a few photos & attach).
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Old 09-17-17, 09:04 AM
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If you removed the end cap (instructions at http://0104.nccdn.net/1_5/20e/108/24...STRUCTIONS.pdf ) and there is no flange as part of the removable end cap then you're good to go. With the end cap removed slide out the axle, install the rotor and tighten down with the small lock ring then slid the axle back it and reinstall the end cap. If a flange is on the end cap (on the end that goes against the bearing) then ask White to ship a modified 12x100 axle without the flange. As I mentioned this is the solution White gave me and maybe they now ship 12x100 end caps without the flange, however I feel that the flange helps reduce water & dirt getting to the bearing. Btw the new Shimano rotors look great.
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Old 09-17-17, 12:00 PM
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Is this disc lockring aluminum? I had a steel one that I couldn't tighten with a tool (different hub though) so I put a large set of locking pliers on the outside circumference and cranked it down. Yeah, it was a trailer park solution but I did go riding that day....
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Old 04-14-19, 07:29 PM
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I'm having the exact same issue with a pair of one-off Trek race shop wheels with DT (I think) based hubs -- the end caps for QR have a flange, and leave no room for the tool's circumference wall behind the teeth to slide in. And the end cap has a flange, so it's impossible to tighten the lockring, then install the cap. I'd be very curious to see if anyone has any follow up solutions.

Same of the same thoughts occurred to me -- drilling holes for a spanner, vise gripping the sides, etc. Strange that this design deficiency exists.

Anyone come up with a really good hack or proper solution?
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Old 04-17-19, 01:45 PM
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Noob disc question- What normally comes with Shimano rotors? One type of lockring? Two types of lockrings? Thanks.
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Old 04-17-19, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
Noob disc question- What normally comes with Shimano rotors? One type of lockring? Two types of lockrings? Thanks.
Shimano road rotors typically come with one lockring - internally splined which installs with a cassette lockring tool.




Hubs with 15mm thru axles might not have enough room to insert the tool between the lockring splines and hub end cap. These require externally splined lockrings which install with a bottom bracket tool. They won't come with the rotors and you have to buy them separately. Note that the HB20 lockring pictured below is discontinued. The XT version is almost exactly the same and functionally equivalent.



Either internal or external splined attach the rotor to the hub the same way. The problem with the externally splined lockring is that it is thicker and can rub the fork blades on a fork with close clearances. That's the point of this thread.

If my next bike has 15 mm thru axles then it will have six bolt rotors for this reason. T25 and done. No issues whatsoever. Just can't do the fancy rotors, that's all.


-Tim-

Last edited by TimothyH; 04-17-19 at 04:14 PM.
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Old 04-17-19, 04:25 PM
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Thanks Tim. I gathered there were some issues but this clears it up for me. I have 15mm thru axle and 6 bolt. If I shop for new wheels I'll stick with 6 bolt unless I can try them before buying.
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Old 04-17-19, 05:59 PM
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Originally Posted by shelbyfv View Post
I shop for new wheels I'll stick with 6 bolt unless I can try them before buying.
I was 1 mm away from having a big problem and agree.
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Old 04-17-19, 08:46 PM
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I have maybe a bit over 1mm clearance on my Niner RLT RDO fork with the external lock ring, I have a 15mm thru axle also. The bike came with Stan’s wheels using the internally splined lock ring and my cassette locking tool fit over the Stan’s end cap with no problem. I bought another set of wheels with DT Swiss 350 hubs, and the OD of their end cap is too large for the cassette tool, even though the ID of both is 15mm. But they did come with the external ring which I used. I never really thought about the clearance until I read this thread. Just made it.
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Old 04-18-19, 06:10 AM
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I found an external spline lock ring that was low profile enough to solve my clearance issue. It is a lower grade “Tourney” stamped steel lockring. It looks kind of crude compared to the pretty aluminum one but I guess can be thinner because it is still. I will include a picture shortly. Now I can proceed with having the White Industry wheels built.
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Old 04-18-19, 07:25 AM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
I found an external spline lock ring that was low profile enough to solve my clearance issue. It is a lower grade “Tourney” stamped steel lockring. It looks kind of crude compared to the pretty aluminum one but I guess can be thinner because it is still. I will include a picture shortly. Now I can proceed with having the White Industry wheels built.
I was going to suggest just this--these are being used on several expensive bicycles, just because there isn't a great solution for a low-profile lockring that needs to clear frame/fork obstructions.
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Old 04-18-19, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by jimincalif View Post
I have maybe a bit over 1mm clearance on my Niner RLT RDO fork with the external lock ring, I have a 15mm thru axle also. The bike came with Stan’s wheels using the internally splined lock ring and my cassette locking tool fit over the Stan’s end cap with no problem. I bought another set of wheels with DT Swiss 350 hubs, and the OD of their end cap is too large for the cassette tool, even though the ID of both is 15mm. But they did come with the external ring which I used. I never really thought about the clearance until I read this thread. Just made it.
Similar situation here.

My Niner RLT 9 RDO was just upgraded with newer wheels. The old wheels were six bolt but the new wheels have Industry 9 centerlock hubs and the OD of the cap is too large. It required the external locking.

I also have about 1 mm clearance. I've ridden it very hard without any issues.

It is sometthing to be aware of when buying wheels/hubs. Some have been burned.


-Tim-
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Old 04-18-19, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
I found an external spline lock ring that was low profile enough to solve my clearance issue. It is a lower grade “Tourney” stamped steel lockring. It looks kind of crude compared to the pretty aluminum one but I guess can be thinner because it is still. I will include a picture shortly. Now I can proceed with having the White Industry wheels built.
This is good information. Thanks.

I can't find it and am looking forward to a link.


-Tim-
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Old 04-18-19, 08:24 AM
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
This is good information. Thanks.

I can't find it and am looking forward to a link.


-Tim-
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F223081128025

I think this is the one - hopefully this link will work.
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Old 04-18-19, 09:38 AM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
https://rover.ebay.com/rover/0/0/0?m...2F223081128025

I think this is the one - hopefully this link will work.


Gain, great information. Thanks man.

That lockring comes with an SM-RT10 rotor. It is shown in several exploded view diagrams...

https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-BR-M365-3986.pdf
https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-BR-M315-3985.pdf
https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-BR-MT200-4349A.pdf
and others.

These show it as "Lock Ring (black) & Washer", Shimano part number Y8JX98020.

The only place I could find it besides eBay is https://bicikli.de/shop/SHIMANO-Ersa...de-Y8JX98020_1


-Tim-
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