rubiksoval

I have a demanding job, a 2 year old, and a 14 year old. At this point I know what I need to do, and I know how I need to do it, and I know pretty quickly whether or not I'm capable of doing it on any given day. So I don't plan anything for a specific day. Besides, what if it rains that day? Or is freezing cold? Or is drop dead gorgeous? Or is a holiday? What if I feel great? Or fried?

Variables are the spice of life. Adaptive training and progression are the name of my game. Training is never a day in isolation in my book.

rubiksoval

Wrong. That one went whizzing by.

That and the irony that is every post you make denigrating "generic training plans", while writing post after post about your own generic training prescriptions.

rubiksoval

In a basement. Staring at a wall.

Machka 

I'm with you!

I did try to stick to a plan when I was racing, but hated that. I need the flexibility.

Even today ... I was thinking about a walk after work because my hip does allow me slow walks, and I thought today would be the day I'd start building up distance. But the uni changed my lecture time this morning and I've got a lecture then. I will get a bit of a walk in, but not the walk I had planned. That will have to take place tomorrow, if possible.

Carbonfiberboy 

By now, I can tell by looking at my PMC numbers and weather forecasts what I'll feel like doing on a particular day, That's kind of important because I'm in charge of The Sunday Group Ride. I leave my PMC set to display last 90 and next 21. OTOH if a workout arrives that I want to change or skip for whatever reason, I do that. Having a plan doesn't mean I have to follow it! No need to repeat the Charge of the Light Brigade. I have to clear my workout plan in advance or it doesn't happen. But at the end of the week, I get to assess whether or not I've met my goals, and if not, what to do about that. I'd really be at sea without them, but OTOH I've only been at this for a little over 20 years. Maybe I'll get better at it. Or maybe Friel was all wet with the huge manual about how to develop a training plan.

Machka 

Ah retirement!

​​​​​​​In another 20 years I may be there too.

PMC ... PubMed Central?

Carbonfiberboy 

Performance Management Chart, a feature of TrainingPeaks. It can sorta tell me how dead my legs might be on some future date. Pretty amazing piece of work, based on Dr. Coggin's equations.

Sorry 'bout this news, but my mom told me long ago that one should get everything done which one wanted to do before retirement, because afterwards you won't have time. She was right. I have more trouble scheduling training time now than I had when I was working. Everyone wants a piece of you when you're retired. My wife says to practice looking in the mirror and saying, "NO!" And then there's the codicil which says that when you finally have time, you won't be able to. That's the big battle, bare handed against a scythe.

Machka 

My training plan goes like this ...

Monday - long walk at lunch | walk/cycle after work.
Tuesday - long walk at lunch | walk/cycle after work.

Monday: Oh, whoops. I've got a meeting at lunch on Monday so I'll shift the long walk to Wednesday. And I've got a thing on Monday evening, so I'll shift the walk/cycle to Wednesday as well.

Tuesday: Oh dear, I've got a morning appointment on so that'll be my lunch break, and look at that, they've moved my lecture to late Tuesday, so I'll shift Tuesday stuff to Thursday.

Wednesday: Aaahh ... someone has booked another lunch appointment ... and I am tired today. I'll move everything to Friday.

Thursday: Look at that, I've got to run errands at lunch today, and leave work early for a meeting ... no exercise today! Shift it all to Monday!

Friday: Must work through lunch and stay a bit late to catch up on things. Everything shifts to Tuesday.

OK, so we're starting the next week. Maybe I'll get lucky this time.

rubiksoval

If having a daily plan works, it works. Just like not having a daily plan works. I went from a Tues threshold/Thurs vo2/Sat group ride race with Wed/Sun long steady rides for years while in college when my life revolved solely around riding, to what I've done for the last 6 years. I had success with both. I had more much more success with the latter, along with other things.

I'm not a fan of PMC. I don't think it correlates nearly as well as people were led to believe, and I don't think it shows nearly the information that some want it to show outside a set of very general parameters. You can jack CTL way, way, up, get TSB positive, and still suck at any number of performance metrics. Conversely, you can have amazing performances on low CTL, or low TSB, or high TSB, etc., etc. It's just a few pixels of a larger picture. And since it's based on NP, it needs fairly accurate numbers and can be skewed during certain blocks of specific work (notably work with very high repeated 30-90s max efforts). I can't even begin to figure out how a hr PMC would be more useful other than a very general descriptor, which I'd expect no one with more than a couple of years of riding experience would actually need. In the south, a HR PMC is virtually useless. CT:L would skyrocket in summer and TSB would be in perpetual negativity solely because of heat/humidity impact. And the bigger you are, likely the worse that would be.

Anyway, all that to say, I may have 2-3 key workouts I know I need to be able to hit in to be sufficiently prepared before a specific event. If I can build up to those and complete them, it matters not whether it's on a Tuesday, Thursday, Sunday, whatever. We write training plans to fit into an arbitrary schedule of time, not necessarily because our biochemical processes are primed and ready to go.

rubiksoval

Sounds like some great advice! That's why I spent my 20s living abroad and traveling around the world a few times before being "responsible" in my 30s. I can't imagine doing that anytime in the near future, and even by now I wouldn't take part in a lot of the traveling situations or adventures (3 dollar hotel rooms, 30 people-per-room hostels, random camping, hanging off the backs of buses, etc.) I was okay with back then.

Machka 

That's it for me too. If I've gradually built up to about 125 km, I know I can handle a century.

Right now, we're doing about the 25 km distance on weekends, and we have done a 40 km ride.

If all goes well, it would be great to be able to do a 50 km on the Labour Day long weekend (March 9/10/11). I have one in mind.

I'd like to do a couple 50 kms, then gradually build up with about 60 km, 70 km, etc., and then, if all goes well, I'd like to do a 100 km over Easter.

And we'll see how things go from there.


If there's one thing I've learned over the past year it's this: Life is Extremely Uncertain.


Anyway, as you say, those are the sort of key workouts I would like to do as I work toward feeling prepared for longer rides, and it really doesn't matter on which day of the week we do those rides.

I also don't have to do intervals unless I want to!

fstrnu

I think you have me confused with TrainerRoad support. You can find them here:

https://support.trainerroad.com/hc/en-us

fstrnu

Ummm this thread is about generic training plans...

Machka 

I don't use TrainerRoad ... never have.

Machka 

What's the point of a generic training plan?

fstrnu

It's the topic of this thread?

Machka 

Oh
​​​​
OK

So ... there is no goal. There is no point to your plans.

​​​​​One more question ... who is your audience? Who are you writing all this stuff for?

fstrnu

People who train indoors. So, not you. Why are you here? You don't even know what a PMC is. Go away already and ride your foldable bike. This is the last response you will get from me.

fstrnu

Very rough and incomplete draft of a podcast script on the topic of indoor training plan for athletes who train indoors and don't hate indoor training enough to troll indoor training threads:

Since training plans are the way many new cyclists choose to explore structured training, today I’ll be explaining how to get the most out of your training plan.

Let's begin by reviewing typical indoor training plan components.

At the highest level, training plans typically allocate a certain number of weeks to each training phase, such as 12 weeks for base, 8 weeks for build and so on.

Each phase has defined goals which go from general to specific as the target event approaches.

Within each phase, one or more blocks will begin with an FTP test, progress workload from week to week, and end with a rest week. Workload progression is typically based on combined interval duration up to a practical limit, which is usually available workout time, after which intensity is substituted for volume.

A specific workouts is prescribed for each training day of each week and workout intensity based on some percentage of FTP. The technical term for a training week is a “microcycle” because there is a common pattern each week follows with progression being the main difference from week to week for any given day of the week. For example, VO2 every Tuesday, LT every Thursday and Endurance every Saturday.

One challenge an athlete may face when following a training plan is inadequate or excess stimulus, load, rate of progression or recovery because of the principle of individualization. Athletes differ in what they respond to, how much of it they can handle, and how long they need to respond to it.

When we talk about “what an athlete responds to” we are talking about stimulus. Stimulus is achieved by imposing load, which is a product of intensity and duration.

Basing workout intensity on a percent of FTP can be problematic for a number of reasons, such as poor pacing during testing, poor test protocol reliability as an indicator of LT, LT as a poor indicator of VO2 max and so on.

Basing endurance workout duration on FTP is even more problematic as FTP because two riders with the same FTP can have radically different abilities over longer durations.

To further complicate matters, some athletes respond better to volume than intensity and vice versa.

Now, when we talk about “how much of it they can handle”, we are talking about load. Load is a product of volume and intensity. Volume is a product of workout duration and frequency. A single workout is a combination of intensity and duration.

For the reasons mentioned above, FTP is a poor indicator of what an athlete is capable of accomplishing, even for a single workout. One rider with an FTP of 300 may be doing 3 x 30 (90 minutes) LT workouts while another wouldn’t dare attempt more than 40 minutes. One rule of thumb out there is that FTP can represent anywhere from 40 minute power to 70 minute power.

Workout frequency enters the picture as multiple workouts are strung together and relies on an athlete’s ability to recover between workouts. Dozens of factor come into play at this point such as age, diet, sleep and so on. Too little recovery between workouts prevents adaptation and leads to fatigue accumulation while too much time between workouts also prevents adaption as fitness will revert to its previous baseline over time.

Powerful tools like microcycle definition exist to address such needs but require self-awareness before they can be put to use.

Tolerable rates of progression and required rest week frequency are other variables related to the athletes ability to handle and recover from load from week to week. Load monitoring can help identify optimal relationships between rate and rest week frequency. For example, more frequent rest weeks may allow a steeper ramp rate. Or more overall load and progress may be achievable with a lower rate of progression and less frequent rest weeks.

Now, in case you haven’t noticed I’ve slipped from description to solutionizing.

Let’s back up and summarize where we are. Training plans give athletes a place to start and some idea of where they are trying to go but riddled by issues caused by lack of personalization and monitoring.

So let’s talk about what training looks like with monitoring and adjustment.

Most athletes demand some kind of phase structure which they can get from a generic or partially individualized plan. They can take comfort in that, for example, 12 weeks will go to base training and so on.

Stimulus

The level at which load management becomes crucial is at the workout level. Without proper stimulus, recovery doesn’t matter. Intensity based on FTP, arbitrary interval structures, and arbitrary duration are not going to cut it.

The first weapon you have at your disposal for proper workout stimulus is call maximum sustainable intensity (MSI). MSI is the maximum power you are able to sustain across all intervals of a workout. MSI means things, too, for certain workouts.
For example, 4 x 4 MSI is a much better indicator of VO2 than %FTP. But I digress.

The most important thing about MSI is that it is a reliable indicator. MSI means that you are suffering during the last interval. MSI means you don’t have another interval in you. These are easy things to know. Just like when you go to the gym to life weights, you know by the end of the workout whether you went too heavy or too light.

MSI is also a reliable, consistent and self-regulating means of progression. As you get stronger, you simply increase power.

But how does MSI target energy systems? Easy, through interval structure.

Athletes perform 40/20’s and 30/30’s for a reason. They perform 2x20’s and 4x8’s for a reason. They perform 4x4’s and 5x3’s for a reason. The reason is each of these workouts target an energy system and/or ability. You don’t have to worry about that. It’s already taken care of. What you need to do is concentrate on MSI and recovery…oh…and cardiac drift.

MSI is for interval workouts. Cardiac drift is for endurance workouts. You see, the primary consideration of interval workouts is intensity. The primary consideration for endurance workouts is duration. You set duration such that cardiac drift is between five and ten percent. That’s it. Under five and you need to increase duration. Over ten and you need to decrease duration.

Recovery = DISC

Declining or Drift = I:E or Drift
Improving = I:E without dissociation or drift
Subjective = Sleep, energy, appetite, mood, motivation
Confounding = Sleep, nutrition, caffeine, stress, gaps in training

Heathpack 

@fstrnu, FYI I do a lot of my workouts (probably 50%) on a trainer with good real world racing results. I find most of what you're posting to be incomprehensible and nothing like what I'm doing that actually gets me results. I am not an anti-trainer troll.

I'm not sure what your intent is with your posts but you come off as condescending. You haven't posted palmares that are relevant to my goals, nor have you discussed results of athletes who you've worked with, so you wouldn't be a source I'd rely on for training advice. Organizationally, your posts are confusing- multiple posts on the same issue, then rewriting posts that have already been commented on. You seem to spend a lot of time thinking about this stuff but then when you post, its as if you have not taken the time to organize your thoughts.

Its also strange that you would use the internet forum format (which is really designed for back and forth conversation, for an exchange of ideas with other people) for what is essentially a series of blog posts. You might consider just setting up your own website and posting your ideas there. Food for thought- because if your intention is to persuade or influence other cyclists, they way you're going about it here is a bit of a miss. You might want to rethink your approach.

fstrnu

Summary:
.

1. Post to this thread with your goals, target events, etc. to get book end dates for each training phase (code word is to ask what training plans you should follow and in what order ; act like to you care and have thought about it, i.e. just say when your event is and save you've been thinking about doing sweet spot base mid volume following by general build or whatever it doesn't matter)
2. Lay out your season as you are instructed, i.e work on endurance for the next 12 weeks and then LT for 8 weeks or whatever
3. Substitute TR endurance workouts with steady state at a duration that will generate 5-10% drift and progress based on drift
4. Base workout frequency on EF (no improvement means increase frequency) and drift (increasing = accumulating fatigue) will help with frequency
5. If ready for Build (5-7% drift at target event duration or target max training duration) before Base is done then move on to Build
6. If you're not ready for Build after 12 weeks or whatever then ask TR whether you should continue working on Base or move to Build (will be a compromise).
7. For Build, use MSI for intensity which will also self-regulate progression ;
8. For Build, use static interval structure, i.e. don't progress combined interval duration and remove arbitrary variation, i.e. translate to actual intervals, i.e. 3x12 MSI vs 1x12 at randomly varying power
9. Stay in Build until Specialty start date which should be a hard date because short power shelf life and taper, etc.
10. Do the same with Specialty as you do with Build but can follow simulation/Zwift-ish workouts more closely but don't turn brain off because MSI/RPE will help ensure adequate stimulus ; Also keep using EF/CD for frequency
11. You can also experiment with balancing higher rate against more frequent rest weeks

Carbonfiberboy 

IME a HR-based PMC is exceptionally accurate and useful. I feel just like what the numbers show. My guess is that's because HR reflects physiological stress, which is what the PMC is designed to display. The other part is that with HR, I can record skiing, snowshoeing, running, hiking, spin bike, weights, stepmill, etc., adding all that to my CTL. Trying to do that with only bike power would be a total crapshoot, worthless.

It takes experience to interpret what one sees, but not all that much. My second season with it, I knew what to do. You can't have a perpetually negative TSB and my summer HR's are pretty much the same as my winter ones for similar activities. I heat train here, specifically going out in the hottest part of the day if I can, riding in Eastern Washington, etc.

I've been moving my CTL up by 3 integers/week because my recovery is a bit slow. I get cooked if I try to drive it up faster than that. However, the higher my CTL, the better my recovery.

Carbonfiberboy 

I train indoors, but only to support my outdoor activities. It's not my sport. I strength train at the gym, but strength is not my sport. I ski and have always loved skiing, but skiing is not my sport anymore either, though it's terrific fun. My wife and I have done a 10-day backpack every year for 40 years. That would be my second most important sport. My number one sport is outdoor cycling, specifically strenuous group rides which I use to train for long distance events. Thus my indoor training is in support of all my outdoor activities, and those other than cycling are also in support of cycling.

While my specifics are certainly not universal, I think those emphases are reflective of most folks who read these threads, whether they post or not. You can see by my numbers that I've read a lot of threads and discussed these matters with a lot of riders.

AFAIK, I've not encountered another person here who only trains indoors. It's always a means toward an end. Since the end goals vary so much between riders, there is no universal training plan. If someone who wants a universal indoor training plan reads this comment, please respond! Then you and the OP can PM each other.

I have appreciated your ideas on not limiting HR when riding indoors. I have been guilty of wrong thinking with respect to that, frequently training with a steady HR indoors. That works fine outdoors, but not indoors. I don't/can't get the drift effects I see indoors when riding outdoors. Even doing a 2000' pass climb in over 100°, my HR needs to stay right where it should be if I'm hydrating and fueling correctly. Thus I see your indoor training method is applicable if that's all you do, and it will certainly increase fitness, but it won't prepare you for a 60 mile competitive group ride in hilly terrain. Better than nothing, but not as good as a similar 50 miler.

As one can see by the above, I'm a proponent of varied training. I think it's healthier and gives better results over the long term.

rubiksoval

No, there are no training plans in this thread.

rubiksoval

Sure you can. It's honestly not that hard to do. At least with power. I always forget you don't have power, so the discussions inevitably end up at a dead end.

But understanding power output is the basis of my assertion regarding a hr PMC. Lower and lower power outputs illicit the exact same or even higher HR when dew points are 68+. And if you've always done "heat" training in Eastern Washington, it's very unlikely you understand what training in heat AND humidity is like, and the impact it has on HR. It is very significant.