bkgeig

Hello! I'm new to this forum and to tandems, but not to riding or working on bikes. I recently bought a Giordano Viaggio on Amazon for $484 delivered and thought I would document my build. This will be a budget build as much as possible, without sacrificing safety (especially the crappy brakes).

I got the Viaggio mainly to carry my daughter to school and both kids around on the weekends. For the last few years I've pulled her on a Trail-a-Bike behind my commuter. She's now too big for it, so a tandem was in order. We live in southern California and it's a significant climb from our house to her school, so I don't expect her to ride the trip on her own any time soon. Besides, it's fun riding together.

I know others have documented the limitations of the Viaggio, so I won't go into too many details. Mine came with a damaged box but otherwise looked ok. On closer examination I found the derailleur hanger was bent and few minor chips in the paint. No big deal about the latter, the paint job isn't great anyway. Giordanno wanted $25 for a new hanger, so I just pulled it off and "massaged" it with a hammer. It looks straight now but I'll find out for sure once everything's back together.

First up was weighing the stock bike with my fish/bike scale. It was 38lb 8oz with the kickstand installed but the rear handlebars missing.



My commuter is a heavily modified mid-90s Trek XO1. It weighs 33lb 5oz fully loaded (lights, lock, etc.). The Trail-a-Bike weighs 20lb 8oz. The XO1 will be my comparison and reference for this build. Most of the parts I plan to put on the tandem have been in use on the XO1 for at least 4 years and have handled the combined weight of the XO1 and the trail-a-bike. I’m pretty confident they will handle the weight of the finished tandem.



Next I stripped the Giordano. Everything went fine until I hit the rear bottom bracket fixed cup. The front was no problem. The rear didn’t budge with the fixed cup wrench, so I switched to Sheldon Brown’s method of a 2” 5/8” bolt, nut, and lock and fender washers. I wedged a 24” breaker bar under the left-side chainstay and went at the nut with a large crescent wrench. No luck. So I tried my pneumatic impact wrench. Still no luck. Off to Harbor Freight to buy a second breaker bar. With all my effort and the second breaker bar the fixed cup still wouldn’t move. In fact, the standard bolt snapped in half. Off the Ace to get a grade 8 bolt and nut. Finally, several hours later the cup moved, but I was sure threads in the bb had stripped. When I finally got it off I was relieved the find the threads are ok. I can only guess that the cup was installed while the paint was still wet. In my 5 years working at a bike shop I never encountered a fixed cup so difficult to remove. I plan to have the bb faced before installing new cranks. Here’s the carnage.



The Giordano frame weighs 9lb 1oz. I had hoped it would be a bit lighter, but I really don’t have anything to compare it to since this is my first tandem. Perhaps that’s a reasonable weight.
I’m waiting for a new carbon cross fork to arrive from Nashbar. I hope to get that installed in a few weeks. Then I’ll probably build up some wheels and install the cranks.



This is going to be a slow build. I don’t need to have it done until the end of the summer. My preliminary plans are a carbon fork, 8 speed bar-end shifters, some kind of new cranks, new wheels (probably built on XT hubs I already have from an old 26” mtb), and TRP hydraulic disc brakes.

I’ll keep updating this post as I go in case anyone is interested.

smoothie_biker

I am very interested. I also bought this tandem from Amazon. I have wrenched as much as I could to bring it up to serious entry level tandem, but overcoming all the limitations could bring up the cost of this tandem 2X to 3X the original price.

So far, I upgraded brakes to Ultegra and changed seats, Captain handlebar, front deraillur and stem.

I will follow your build progress and see how you can upgrade to disc brakes and whether Nashbar CX carbon is tandem worthy.


*A side note about transport damage: I received mine with one bend spoke and cracked nipple. I called Amazon and they credited me back $83 for the repair. I had the options of sending it back, exchange or repair at the time of the call. Maybe you can call Amazon and get some money back for the damage.

qspencer

I'm also curious how this works out. I wanted a cheap tandem for riding with kids and managed to find (and upgrade) an old Raleigh cruiser tandem, but the right used tandem at the right price can be hard to find, so this might be a good option. The Viaggio is an alumninum frame, correct? As a reference point, the Raleigh I got weighs 50 pounds and has a high-tensile steel frame that probably weighs 15 or more. Obviously a new fork would have disc brake mounts, but how do you plan to put a disc on the rear of that frame?

bkgeig

Thanks for the suggestion on the wheels. I noticed last night that at least one spoke is bent. I'll call Amazon to see whether I can get some money back. I already tried with the der hanger and they directed me to Giordano to order a new one.

I just ordered an A2Z DM-UNI adapter from Wiggle. It was a little more than I had budgeted, but these things are getting harder to find, so I went ahead and picked one up while I could. If you look closely at my X01, you'll see I'm using a heavily modified A2Z to run discs on this old frame. I have had no trouble with it in 3 years of use and do check it regularly. I trust it for the tandem. I'll post some pics of the install when it arrives.

I hope to keep the total cost around $1000. If I can sell off some parts I think that's doable. I'm posting a JPG of the spreadsheet I'm keeping. I'll update the spreadsheet and the pic as I go.

smoothie_biker

bkgeig, where did you get your disc wheelset for $130? And what is the max disc rotor size that can fit this frame with just 135mm rear spacing?

I just bought a rear wheel alone from Cambriabike for $167 (Spec: 700C/29er Rear Wheel - XT Hub Laced to DT TK540 Rim 36 Hole).

Hopefully this will hold up as Tandem wheel.

Bezalel

If you're putting so much into it, why not start off with a better frame?

bkgeig

The wheelset on my commuter is the XLC Inverno 29. I got it at JensonUSA, but they no longer have any in stock. I'm going to build up new wheels using XT M756 hubs I already have and Rhyno Lite rims, at least that's the plan as of now. I'm really not looking forward to building up a set of wheels, so I might keep an eye out for suitable pair elsewhere.

I don't know what the max rotor size is. I run 160s on my commuter. I'll probably use the same on the tandem. In a few months I might play around with a 203 in the rear to see if it fits.

I'm not familiar with the Dyad rim, but Velocity's website claims it's good for tandems. The Inverno rim is about 26mm outside width, which I really like. They Dyad is 24. I believe Rhyno Lite's are about 27mm. I think the XT hub should be a good choice. I would probably only worry about the wheel if you're carrying a lot of weight, for ex. loaded touring.

bkgeig

Bezalel, more than a few people have asked me the same question about my heavily modified 1993 Geo Metro! I drive the Metro because it gets over 40mpg, and I continue to maintain it because I enjoy wrenching on cars. I decided to build up the Viaggio because it looked to a be and is indeed a good, though perhaps not great, frame. I spent many months watching Craiglist for suitable tandems and never found one for less than $1500. When I'm done I hope the Viaggio build will come in under $1300, and I believe it will be as good or better than tandems priced higher. If you know of sources for tandem frames under $1000, I would love to know of them, and the things that make them better than the Viaggio. If you have any questions about the Viaggio's construction, I'm happy to answer them and take pics.

smoothie_biker

I just want to add some stopping power for some steep hills here. So, my plan is to add rear hydraulic disc brake and mount the disc brake lever on stoker's handlebar. Bought the items below to go with XT rear wheel.

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[TD="class: ror-description, bgcolor: #F0F0F0"]Shimano XT RT86 Ice-Tec 160mm 6-Bolt Rotor 160mm 6-Bolt[/TD]
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Cancel This Order

LelandJT

Is a carbon CX fork safe to use on a tandem? I'd be worried about using a fork that wasn't specifically designed for tandems. At Santana we have a reputation for being a little overly obsessed with safety and other brands use parts we won't but I've still never seen them use a single bike fork.

Also, a 160mm brake rotor is much too small to offer the power and heat capacity a tandem requires. Brake loads are exponentially higher than single bikes. I'd consider 8" to be the minimum and I recommend a solid steel rotor since Santana testing and individual tandem users have melted the aluminum core of 8" Ice Tech rotors. I commend the effort to build a budget tandem commuter but keep safety and the unique demands of a tandem in mind.

bkgeig

Great to see someone from Santana commenting on my build. I've read over your reviews and recommendations on disc brakes many times. Your warnings about Avid mechanicals on a tandem have been particularly helpful. Good to know about the Ice Tech rotors. I was leaning toward them based on mtb reviews, but will now go with solid steel. I hope to be able to fit an 8" in the rear, but I won't know until I get the A2Z adapter in place. My understanding of larger rotors is that they don't necessarily offer more power--the contact area is determined by the size of the caliper/pad--but do offer better heat dissipation and therefore reduce fade, which can affect "power" during prolonged application of the brakes.

I've been using the 1" version of the carbon fork on my commuter for at least 3 years. I commute almost every day with a 33lb bike and anywhere between 10 and 30lbs of gear (more when I'm picking up a 6-pack after work ). Every morning I also pull about 70lbs, 20lb trail-a-bike + 50lb daughter. I believe this should be in the ballpark of the stresses the tandem will put on the 1 1/8" version of the fork. So far I've had no issues with the 1" version on the commuter. Of course, one of the advantages of a personal build is that you know exactly how the bike will be used and can build accordingly. A company, on the other hand, at least a reputable one, has to build for all possible uses. If I were ever to use the tandem for touring, or to go down one of our local mountains, I would reevaluate closely the choices I've made for a tandem used primarily for commuting.

Smoothie_biker, if I understand what you're trying to accomplish, you aren't necessarily trying to add "stopping" power, but rather trying to scrub speed on long descents. This used to be accomplished with drum brakes, which I think aren't common anymore. You might be able to connect a mechanical caliper, like the TRP HY/RD, to a friction thumb shifter to do something similar. Though I would definitely heed LelandJT's recommendations about size and material in this kind of application. Personally, I would be leery about giving the stoker access to a true brake lever. If they panicked in a corner and hit the brake when you weren't expecting it bad things could happen. Of course, my stoker will be a 7 year old girl, which makes me extra cautious.

geronimo2000

and you're building a bike with a fork that isn't rated for tandems?

smoothie_biker

I'm a bit concern about giving my stoker the ability to brake, but she's an adult and I will instruct her to only touch the brake lever when requested by me the captain!! I only need braking help for a few 4-way stops at the bottom of the hill in my neck of the wood. We are still learning a long the way and not planning to take this tandem up a mountain pass or a really hilly ride.

As for anyone who might be interested in this tandem, my advice is to buy it and ride it as is (just change brake pads and maybe tires). If tandeming is your thing, buy the real entry level one like the new 2015 KHS Milano for around $2000 (or a used tandem in your area) and sell the Giordano for a bit less than what you paid for. It does not have much room to depreciate really. Trying to upgrade it is just not worth it. The lack of Eccentric bottom bracket is the deal breaker for me. There is not little option to upgrade that.


I will keep it for a while because it fits both of us well and I've put some serious coins into it already. I will follow bkgeig's journeytosee how far/good he can transform this tandem.

bkgeig

Technically it's not rated at all on Nashbar's site, so I called them. I asked the tech what the weight limit is. He replied "at least 350 lbs, it's a tandem fork". I then specifically asked him whether he thought it was safe to use on a tandem. He said definitely. Interpret that as you like. His recommendation combined with my experiences with the 1" version allay the concerns I started to have. And thank you for raising them. I definitely do not want to endanger my family.

On that note, an interesting aside. For a couple of years I pulled my daughter on a department store trail a bike we bought at a garage sale. One morning I was tearing down the hill from her school after dropping her off, at about 30mph, when the trailer started to drag on the ground. I pulled over to see what had happened, and discovered that the frame had broken at a weld. Thank goodness she wasn't on the bike. We bought a true Trail-a-Bike after that and have had no problems.

smoothie_biker

Took some pics while waiting for adapter and disc brakes from Wiggle to check clearance. It looks like it can only accommodate 160mm rotor or smaller.

bkgeig

I'm eager to see what you find, smoothie_biker. Whatever the size, it has to be better than the crappy brakes that come standard. - Brian

smoothie_biker

Me too! I tried the eyeballing and also did some rough measurements. My guts feeling says, 203mm is a no go, 180mm is overly optimistic, 160mm is good and 140mm is great But until rotor is mounted on the wheel, it's still a wild guess.

Brian, I'm curious how you will tackle the noisy timing chain tensioner? I was riding without using it for a while. It's a bit sloppy with so much slack in the chain but worked just fine. Now the timing chain is starting to skip, causing the captain and stoker's cranks to move out of phase.

qspencer

Sheldon Brown's web site has a page about homebrew tandems in which he describes using a "ghost" chainring as an alternative to a chain tensioner. Between the two bottom brackets, insert a chainring larger than the two timing rings between the upper and lower parts of the timing chain. It would need to be pretty large, like 52, and it might even require two of them, depending on how much slack is in the chain, but I imagine it would be quieter and add less drag than a chain tensioner.

nfmisso

The Dyad and the Aeroheat (same extrusion 559 size) are great rims; my favorites to build because they are round and flat. Sun's Rhyno Lite is heavier, not as round and not as flat so the spoke tensions are not as even as they are with a Dyad - assuming your are shooting for a wheel with minimal axial and radial run-out. Read Peter White's commentaries on rims. Custom Wheel Building for a more eloquant description.

Alex Adventurer rims are also nice. Surly LHT comes with Adventurer rims.

I build ETRTO590 wheels with Sun CR18 rims because they are the only ones readily available. For ETRTO559 I use Velocity Aeroheat, and for ETRTO622 Dyad.

zonatandem

Trying to make a silk purse out of a sows ear? Too much $$$$ involved.
Better off to buy a several years used brand name tandem . . .

smoothie_biker

I tried "ghost" chainring but it did not work out because I used 52-tooth ring. The ring kept popping out when hitting a bump. Per one Amazon's reviewer, we need a 58-tooth ring. I replaced the noisy tensioner pulley with a rollerblade wheel (another Amazon reviewer's idea, lol). It's much quieter but I can feel a bit of drag.
On a positive note, riding 90 degree out of phase felt a bit smoother since my stoker pedal stroke is not that good yet. We just could not start the tandem properly that way though.

I think I found the cause of timing chain skipping. The stoker's bottom bracket was loose and cranks wobbled side to side. So I may go back to ride without the tensioner now that I've fixed the bottom bracket.

ksisler

In the small set of tandems offered on Amazon, would recommend the Pacific Dualie over the Giordano. Noting that the Dualie has a proper cross-over drive and is less expensive also. Overall though three points come to mind;
1) Compared to 20 years ago, the cheapest entry level tandem today is a lot better bike (compare either of these to an old Columbia twin or most of the old Schwinn's.
2) Whether single or tandem, at the entry level price points, trying to upgrade them by changing up components will end up costing more in total than just buying a better bike to start with, but the upgraded bike will not be overall as good.
3) Always try to buy the best bike you can for the money you have. If the wallet is thin, then the best answer is usually buying a used bike. It is not that difficult to find a nice tandem on eBay well under $1,000. Examples are the many used Santana's routinely found for $400-700 and needing little to no work/expense to have them ready to ride (perhaps tires, pads and perhaps cables). At a minimum it will have a very good frame, a crossover drive and many solid (but not exotic) components.

FWIW and YMMV
/K

DubT

+1 very well said

bkgeig

I plan to try a half-link to see if I can bypass the tensioner. That's how I ran my single speed mtb. If that doesn't work I'll experiment with some old derailleurs as tensioners.

Pacific Dualie isn't my cup of tea, with 26" wheels and flat bars. 2 problems with the ebay theory that I see: 1) there's only been one Santana that I can find that's sold since Oct 2014 for less than $800, 2) if it ain't local shipping's going to be outrageous. As I mentioned above, I watched Craigslist for over a year before deciding to go the Viaggio route.

qspencer

I tend to agree with this assessment. I look at eBay tandems pretty regularly and find that bikes that would interest me don't come up all that frequently. A significant percentage of eBay tandem sellers don't want to ship their bikes (understandably), and then there are always a few sellers (as with any market in used goods) who seem to have an unrealistic idea of what their bikes are actually worth. Going through that for long enough makes the idea of a bike showing up on your doorstep for $500 seem pretty appealing.