mack_turtle

do you still have a gel cover on your saddle? that's usually a good indication that something is amiss with how you fit on the bike. if you NEED a ton of extra cushioning on your saddle and you don't have a medically diagnosed butt problem, and you've ridden the bike more than a few times, something about the saddle position is wrong. furthermore, those gel covers never really fit tight, so your hips rock on top of the saddle, making the bike unstable. that drains energy and usually makes the experience a drag.
no one will be able to tell from a photo of two if you saddle position is just right, but it will be easy to tell if it's really wrong.

A good general rule is that you should be able to pedal without rocking your hips. if you saddle it too high, it will force you to rock on your pelvis to reach the bottom of the pedal stroke. the resulting friction will cause a sore butt doing this in no time! Here's an experiment you can try to find the highest point practical for your saddle: (I make no claims that this is the final word on the subject, but it's a useful reference point.)

1. remove one crank arm from your bike. rotate it 180° and reinstall. your pedals will line up and your cranks should rotate down to the lowest position because they're not inline with each other and gravity will pull them down. it will be nearly impossible to ride the bike like this, but that's not the point.
2. mount the bike, preferably in a trainer. if you don't have a trainer, have a friend stand facing you, holding your handlebar next to the stem and wedge the front tire between their knees. or get creative with standing the stationary bike up while you sit on it. put your hands on the grips in a normal riding position to get you pelvis rotated into your regular riding orientation.
3. put your feet on the pedals. can you reach both pedals from the saddle with a neutral foot position? try putting just your heels on the pedals to rule out your ankle from the equation. if you have to reach with your toes to the pedals to reach both of them at the same time, your saddle is almost certainly too high. if you can stand on your heels without straining or excessive pressure on your pelvis, the saddle is not too high. that is to say, it's low enough to not cause discomfort.

most basic bike fits will start with saddle height and do something like this: the fitter will watch you pedaling on a trainer, looking for hip movement. they may even put sensors or bright color stickers on your lower back/ top of your pelvis to see if your hips rock when you pedal. they'll most likely adjust saddle height just a few millimeter at a time until the rocking ceases.

fine-tuning the saddle height and fore-aft position is a whole other ball of wax, but the first thing on your hierarchy of needs for a confidence-inspiring bike fit is that the saddle is low enough that you can pedal with comfort and power. try that and report back if you're interested in learning anything at all.

I've also plugged Bike Fit Advisor and Steve Hogg to you before. what did you read / watch and what did you think of their approaches?

aniki

I think what we're seeing here is a large degree of self-justification but I don't really understand why. Why not just say hey! I'm totally new to this, please help me...
For example, Moist said that his old seat post was removed by a car mechanic and was replaced with a post 'slightly too big for the frame' by the same 'mechanic'.
So that tells us that:-
A) If this lad has a car he definitely shouldn't ever take it to the same mechanic
B) Never let that mechanic anywhere near your bike again and
C) It suggests to me that perhaps it has now become physically impossible to jam the oversized seat post into the frame any further and in order to convince himself that it's not a problem, Moist is is trying to convince himself and all of us that it's 'already the correct height'.

Reading a few quotes from his posts I notice he said that most of his riding is on pavements which begs the question.... @Moisture why the hell didn't you just buy a mountain bike and be done with it?

mack_turtle

I'm not sure if this is the same bike, but yeah. if some hack "mechanic" shoved an oversized seatpost into a frame and the height is now non-adjustable, the rider is now motivated to justify the height. there's a point where you have to admit you made a mistake, or that you can't justify what's been done.

sloppy12

well unless you have inspector gadget legs most people can judge with simple logic. or maybe you rock or lean when at full extension?

Trakhak

The solution to the conundrum:

mack_turtle

Moisture there's an old adage that goes "Learn the rules like a pro, so you can break them like an artist." it seems to many of us that this is what you think you are doing. there are many mavericks throughout history who do this well, and there are hacks who are never remembered except for their eccentric failures. the problem is, you skipped the first part. instead of riding conventional bicycles and then adapting them to what works for you, you're taking whatever old junk bikes you can get your hands on—that don't fit you—and spinning a world of alternative facts to justify the quirks of how you fit on these bikes. it's great to tinker and try new things, even whacky things because it's fun to tinker with bikes. but you owe it to yourself to be honest about what you're doing, and that it's mostly driven by your limited access to purpose-made gear for your needs. you're having fun and learning, and you have little to tell the world about it other than your mistakes and kludges to work around them.

Gary Fisher, Jeff Jones, Grant Pederson, and their tribe make bikes that don't fit the mold, but they learned the conventional way of doing things first. I think you might get a lot out of studying what Jeff Jones has done. look up The Path Less Pedaled on youtube as well. that seems up your alley.

Moisture

Okay well, about seat height...

According to the heel to pedal method , yes, my seat is too high.

However... I ride with strap in pedals. Meaning that only the front half of my foot is on the pedal... in this case, I still have a bit of knee extension left if anything.

So my question is, while I really like my strap ins and all, even when I'm using them, does that account for the otherwise incorrect seat height...?

Moisture

I'm not gonna post another pic. Too much annoyance to use the timer. Don't see any other settings in the menu.

Bonus:

badger1

I'll try ... once.

For practical purposes -- other than fine-tuning fit at an elite/pro level -- whether or not you use foot attachment is completely irrelevant. Here's one tried/true method (there are many) to set initial saddle height: your saddle should be set -- as a starting point -- so that if you sit on your bike and put both heels on the pedals, you can pedal backwards without your heels losing contact with the pedals. The contact needn't be 'firm', it needs to be just enough to keep your heels in place without 'reaching' for the pedals/rocking your hips etc. As I say, that's a start point; fine-tuning from there is a matter of millimetres.

To the extent that the picture you posted is an accurate representation, there is no conceivable way your saddle is at an appropriate height for your leg length. It is far too high.

Moisture

Youre right. That's a good way to determine saddle height.

I really appreciate all your input and help guys. Im sorry if i came across as "overly eager."

Here is what my extension looks when riding with the strap ins (no time to put my feet in lol)



So.. obviously my seat is still set too high. But with my shoes on, I can JUST manage according to the heel method. so I'm not far off from baseline. I can lower the saddle and my handlebars which would be great, but I don't wanna ditch my pedals..

I realized that I would need a considerably longer reach if I bike according to the heel method.

Trakhak

The one note I can add is that, when I was a beginning racer at age 13 in 1964, I was told that the heel-on-pedal method pertained specifically to bike racing shoes, which at the time had very thin leather soles without a heel added. Thus, using conventional shoes with built-up heels for sizing via the heel-on-pedal method would result in an incorrectly high saddle. To end up with a fit like the OP's, I'd have to use the shoes from a Gene Simmons/Kiss Halloween costume.

badger1

Correct! I should have been more clear: better to use that method with sock feet than with shoes on.

I've always found that it gets me right in the 'ballpark' for leg extension w/shoes -- then fine-tune from there. I tend to go 'up' a very few mms., but that's about it.

I like the Gene Simmons allusion!!

mack_turtle

testing your bike fit in your socks is only useful if you actually ride in your socks without shoes. is that your practice? no judgment from me if you do, but we need to establish this fact. otherwise, you should test it with the same shoes that you wear while riding. the "heel on the pedal" is not precise, but it's a good basic starting point. so long as you're not wearing "Gene Simmons" boots or something, but regular old sneakers, it's a good place to start.

everything starts with saddle "height." get that correct first, then handlebar position, then fine tune your balance on the bike with saddle fore-aft again. that might mean a tiny change in height because, if you move your saddle back, you're moving it away from the bottom bracket. "saddle height" is obviously a misnomer because it's not a vertical measurement but a diagonal one. it's just much easier than saying "diagonal distance from the pedal to the top of the saddle in line with the seat tube angle."

if the appropriate saddle position ends up with a cramped seated position on the bike, you need a longer stem or a longer frame. which is what we've been telling you all along...

the photo above tells me that you've taken a road bike designed for the ride to sit with his body tilted forward in a balanced but powerful position, and you've turned it into an ersatz Dutch city bike. the more you position yourself in a comfortable, confident, and efficient conventional recreational bike position, the more obvious the awkwardness of this setup will become for you.

Moisture

So the most glaring question at this point would be, how does the heel to pedal method of extension measurement apply if you dont pedal with your heels, but say, the middle or front of your foot?

I love my strap in pedals, but I find that pedaling with my foot over the middle of the pedal or closer toward the heel will place less stress on my quads and allow me to lower my seat down to where it should be.

Also, keeping your feet further on the pedals will sort of change the "reach" as in, how far forward you place your feet onto the pedals, and therefore your balance on the bike, correct?

mack_turtle

the "heel method" is a test gives you a pretty good idea if your saddle is too high. your knee should have a slight bend at the bottom of your pedal stroke during normal pedaling with your mid-foot or fore-foot on the pedal. if you can't even keep your heels in contact with the pedal for a full rotation without rocking your hips, then using your ankle to do so it going to be a stretch and probably cause your hips to rock on the saddle. the heel method is not a way to find a precise saddle height, it's just a rough starting point to determine if your saddle is truly too high. it's not scientific and no one is suggesting your should RIDE with your heels on the pedals. that would be idiotic. if you were in a bike shop getting a fit done, no fitter would waste time with it. but because we can only advise remotely using words on a screen, it's the best method that can be explained that you can do on your own without a fitter present in the room with you.

Moisture

when pedalling with the balls of your feet, a baseline seat height will not provide you with nearly enough knee extension.

mack_turtle

I'm done here. good luck with your bike. you've been nothing but ignorant, dense, combative, willfully misleading, and ungrateful. people can help you with bike fitting if you listen, but only you can address your attitude.

cb400bill

Time to put this thread to sleep.

/closed