The Need for Basic Bikes
#51
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If you had paid $25 for your Free Spirit, you’d have a comparable bike and it likely would be the same quality.
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Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
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Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
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Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#52
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I'd rather consider how to move them from being part of the problem to being part of the solution.
Neither the stores nor the purchasers can alone climb out of one grove and drop into the other; it would have be be an organized effort of multiple players in partnership - stores and their supply chains, organizations like coops to provide mechanical support and education - including why you want the simple one, and not the 21 speed with suspension.
Case in point, over on the streetblog article someone observed:
To which I'd simply say, don't use indexed shifting - it's a delicate and unnecessary feature. It never worked right on my college-era big-box MTB, so I just switched it to friction mode and shifted by feel and ear.
To which I'd simply say, don't use indexed shifting - it's a delicate and unnecessary feature. It never worked right on my college-era big-box MTB, so I just switched it to friction mode and shifted by feel and ear.
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Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#53
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Single speed might work for young, athletic riders but not for most.
The world ain’t flat.
But notice how share bikes are often 3-speed tanks, yet very popular.
How much do you think index shifting adds to the cost?
Instead of a mechanism that needs adjustment to stay working, you have a mechanism that needs a few minutes worth of learning to ride with.
Last edited by UniChris; 03-24-21 at 07:55 PM.
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Are you aware of how small a fraction of households - even seemingly middle class ones - have even $300 in available savings to meet a sudden expense? It's one of the things the linked article goes into.
Being that close to the edge feels unfathomable, but it's a surprising number of people's reality.
For the economic necessity bikes, you also have to consider things like theft risk - commuting 5 miles each way is maybe 3000 miles a year, not much to ask for a bike, but will the buyer still have it in a year, or two to justify spending more?
Even if they could, we're back to the problem of not being able to make up-front investments, as also evidenced by doing things like buying household staples at full price and small containers when you need them, rather than stocking up when it's on sale or periodically venturing to where the prices are better.
Then, when you get into the category where there is some savings, you start seeing a lot of thought go into getting value for money. So sure, someone who's convinced themselves they're going to ride a hundred fitness miles a week may go put a fair amount of money into something decent at the LBS or order something impressive looking online. Conversely someone who's just going to do 10-20 miles on the rail trail with their kids on the occasional weekend isn't a cyclist, they're just someone who wants to ride a bike sometimes, and don't need anything fancy. Nor do they want to spend a lot on little Johnnie's _ size bike since he'll outgrow it in a year, and even though it can probably be passed on to his sister Sallie... and then maybe given to Sadie across the street, it's still a temporary solution. Maybe then it's time to get Johnnie a bike for college, but since he'll just be riding a half mile across campus and its likely to get stolen anyway...
Being that close to the edge feels unfathomable, but it's a surprising number of people's reality.
For the economic necessity bikes, you also have to consider things like theft risk - commuting 5 miles each way is maybe 3000 miles a year, not much to ask for a bike, but will the buyer still have it in a year, or two to justify spending more?
Even if they could, we're back to the problem of not being able to make up-front investments, as also evidenced by doing things like buying household staples at full price and small containers when you need them, rather than stocking up when it's on sale or periodically venturing to where the prices are better.
Then, when you get into the category where there is some savings, you start seeing a lot of thought go into getting value for money. So sure, someone who's convinced themselves they're going to ride a hundred fitness miles a week may go put a fair amount of money into something decent at the LBS or order something impressive looking online. Conversely someone who's just going to do 10-20 miles on the rail trail with their kids on the occasional weekend isn't a cyclist, they're just someone who wants to ride a bike sometimes, and don't need anything fancy. Nor do they want to spend a lot on little Johnnie's _ size bike since he'll outgrow it in a year, and even though it can probably be passed on to his sister Sallie... and then maybe given to Sadie across the street, it's still a temporary solution. Maybe then it's time to get Johnnie a bike for college, but since he'll just be riding a half mile across campus and its likely to get stolen anyway...
Last edited by UniChris; 03-24-21 at 08:23 PM.
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The market for new bicycles is fairly competitive -- in an economic sense, meaning that that are many firms of various sizes, low barriers to entry, etc. If it were possible to produce a reliable and durable commuter bike for $250, and there was sufficient demand for it, someone would be producing it. My sense of this market, having bought (and maintained) dozens of such bikes, tells me that your conclusion is incorrect.
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You seem to think that something should cost a certain amount just because you want it to, because you think it is "fair." The actual cost of producing such bikes doesn't seem to enter into your thinking.
The market for new bicycles is fairly competitive
If it were possible to produce a reliable and durable commuter bike for $250
and there was sufficient demand for it
Neither saying "I want to pay X" nor "here's a low-feature solid budget bike" works on its own without the cooperation of the other party; it would really have to be approached from all directions at once: supply, maintenance, and community-based consumer education about what's actually important in a bike (for example, think about the people who've kidnapped share bikes to do various challenge rides, and instead do vlog's about doing them on the $250 budget bike, ones about working on it, etc)
Or we can keep turning resources into short-lived crap.
Last edited by UniChris; 03-24-21 at 09:20 PM.
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#58
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How much did a bike cost in 1920? Probably a worker's monthly wages or more and that was a heavy single speed bike. For a monthly wage, even at minimum wage, you can buy a decent commuter bike nowadays.
People say they want a simple bike, then buy the colorful full suspension bike at Walmart. Walmart sells exactly what people actually buy. If people buy a decent rigid commuter bike for $500, Walmart would sell it. But people only talk about buying a decent bike, then end up with the cheap one.
The terrible truth is, to buy a decent bike people would have to give up smoking, drinking, drugs and Starbucks. And that actually tells us people's priorities.
It is not different with cars. Many years ago I worked at Starbucks. People came every day to buy a $5 coffee. But didn't have money to fix their driver side mirror that had fallen off. 1 month brewing coffee at home would have paid for a life saving safety feature. Priorities....
People say they want a simple bike, then buy the colorful full suspension bike at Walmart. Walmart sells exactly what people actually buy. If people buy a decent rigid commuter bike for $500, Walmart would sell it. But people only talk about buying a decent bike, then end up with the cheap one.
The terrible truth is, to buy a decent bike people would have to give up smoking, drinking, drugs and Starbucks. And that actually tells us people's priorities.
It is not different with cars. Many years ago I worked at Starbucks. People came every day to buy a $5 coffee. But didn't have money to fix their driver side mirror that had fallen off. 1 month brewing coffee at home would have paid for a life saving safety feature. Priorities....
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People say they want a simple bike, then buy the colorful full suspension bike at Walmart. Walmart sells exactly what people actually buy.
If people buy a decent rigid commuter bike for $500
And looking at what they do sell, shows it's possible.
Last edited by UniChris; 03-24-21 at 10:47 PM.
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Right kind of idea and probably something more middle-class consumers should consider.
But better still if it was out there in volume, used simpler brakes, $300 or under, and available for cash to the unbanked to who need to ride something home from the store that day so that they can get to work in the morning if not later that night.
It's about getting the clueless consumers and the critical economic transport need purchases away from the unfortunate BSO's and towards a slightly simpler version of that, which would need to be made comparable available. The difference between $200 and $300 is bad enough, the difference between there and $500 plus needing a credit card, stable address, and ability to wait is huge.
But better still if it was out there in volume, used simpler brakes, $300 or under, and available for cash to the unbanked to who need to ride something home from the store that day so that they can get to work in the morning if not later that night.
It's about getting the clueless consumers and the critical economic transport need purchases away from the unfortunate BSO's and towards a slightly simpler version of that, which would need to be made comparable available. The difference between $200 and $300 is bad enough, the difference between there and $500 plus needing a credit card, stable address, and ability to wait is huge.
Nope.
Please elaborate on who the ‘unbanked’ are though?
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It's a standard term familiar to anyone who knows anything about challenges faced by segments of society other than their own.
If you don't know what you're talking about, don't care to look it up, and didn't pick up the examples already given in the thread including the context you pulled it from, then maybe you don't have a lot to say?
Incidentally, they are a major consumer group; in fact there are whole, rather exploitative industries, for which they are nearly the entire customer base. So in fact yes, people do organize business around that.
If you don't know what you're talking about, don't care to look it up, and didn't pick up the examples already given in the thread including the context you pulled it from, then maybe you don't have a lot to say?
Incidentally, they are a major consumer group; in fact there are whole, rather exploitative industries, for which they are nearly the entire customer base. So in fact yes, people do organize business around that.
Last edited by UniChris; 03-24-21 at 11:30 PM.
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Where I am in S E Asia, they buy container loads of second hand bikes from Japan, and often sell ladies bikes for around $50 retail.
New ladies bikes are often not much more, maybe $60.
You cam buy new mountain bikes for under $150, manufactured in Asia.
These prices are retail. The importer is making money, and the retailer is making money.
New ladies bikes are often not much more, maybe $60.
You cam buy new mountain bikes for under $150, manufactured in Asia.
These prices are retail. The importer is making money, and the retailer is making money.
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I'm not sure what your crusade is about. If you honestly feel you can make a quality, trouble free bike for $250 then by all means do so. Might be an interesting education in reality for you.
There is no shortage of used bikes, just bikes that meet your Americanized standards. I volunteer at charities that ship bikes to Africa as part of their ministry. They have warehouses of used bikes they mix and match parts from to make whole bikes. Their biggest problems in not a lack of bikes but shipping costs.
There is no shortage of used bikes, just bikes that meet your Americanized standards. I volunteer at charities that ship bikes to Africa as part of their ministry. They have warehouses of used bikes they mix and match parts from to make whole bikes. Their biggest problems in not a lack of bikes but shipping costs.
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It's a standard term familiar to anyone who knows anything about challenges faced by segments of society other than their own.
If you don't know what you're talking about, don't care to look it up, and didn't pick up the examples already given in the thread including the context you pulled it from, then maybe you don't have a lot to say?
Incidentally, they are a major consumer group; in fact there are whole, rather exploitative industries, for which they are nearly the entire customer base. So in fact yes, people do organize business around that.
If you don't know what you're talking about, don't care to look it up, and didn't pick up the examples already given in the thread including the context you pulled it from, then maybe you don't have a lot to say?
Incidentally, they are a major consumer group; in fact there are whole, rather exploitative industries, for which they are nearly the entire customer base. So in fact yes, people do organize business around that.
The ‘unbanked’ you referred to make up around 5% of the population.
And about half of them made the choice to avoid banks due to fees and overall distrust of banks. Not lack of funds or inability to pay $500 for an item.
Either way, they are most certainly a nonfactor when it comes to bicycle mass production.
But you keep doing you lol
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So I'll explain again, for what - the fourth time - what I said in the post immediately above yours, which is that it would have to be a shift of all parties, not just a unilateral change by one. To repeat again what was in the post literally above yours, neither "hey buy this" or "I want" works by itself, it would take both together.
Got it.
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The thing is this isn't just a bike thing. Pick a hobby. Any hobby. Be it photography, downhill skiing, snow shoeing, fly fishing, trap shooting, golfing etc. The good quality equipment, just like in biking, is going to cost money.
Some of you would probably be surprised to know that I have I have approximately $1000 wrapped up into one of the many fly rods I own.
https://www.orvis.com/helios-3d-fly-rods
Some of you would probably be surprised to know that I have I have approximately $1000 wrapped up into one of the many fly rods I own.
https://www.orvis.com/helios-3d-fly-rods
Last edited by prj71; 03-25-21 at 06:08 AM.
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#67
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If you are so sure a decent bike could be sold (consumer price) for $250.... I like to see how you actually do that in the real world and not just in an internet discussion. unless your definition of decent is much different than mine.
Except economics, nothing stops you from actually delivering on your promise of selling the bikes you advocate for.
Except economics, nothing stops you from actually delivering on your promise of selling the bikes you advocate for.
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Manufacturing is drastically more automated today. Think about it, and there aren't really any more steps in producing a sound basic bike than a BSO - actually there are fewer parts to be made. They just need to be very slightly better, the heat treat of the BB axle needs to not end up screwed up in occasional batches to the point where it produces cheese or glass, etc.
Wait I thought you said you wanted some "kid" in a back room to put these bikes together for virtue or something???
So I'll explain again, for what - the fourth time - what I said in the post immediately above yours, which is that it would have to be a shift of all parties, not just a unilateral change by one. To repeat again what was in the post literally above yours, neither "hey buy this" or "I want" works by itself, it would take both together.
Right you want a granny bike We got it. No one else wants that bike.
No, that's near double what it needs to cost.
And looking at what they do sell, shows it's possible.
Wait I thought you said you wanted some "kid" in a back room to put these bikes together for virtue or something???
So I'll explain again, for what - the fourth time - what I said in the post immediately above yours, which is that it would have to be a shift of all parties, not just a unilateral change by one. To repeat again what was in the post literally above yours, neither "hey buy this" or "I want" works by itself, it would take both together.
Right you want a granny bike We got it. No one else wants that bike.
No, that's near double what it needs to cost.
And looking at what they do sell, shows it's possible.
You want to start a bike brand that builds a kinda budget bike with features from the 70's that wont be as "cool" as a walmart bike.
You want to build the bikes and pay the workers with virtue.
You want a huge distribution network (this part I assume, I'm sure you don't want to leave out poor Appalachian Americans and only service mega cities.)
You want a dealer network for service so the consumer can keep this junk on the road.
I guess my question is did you survey these poor folks you are trying to help?
I work with people who think I am completely nuts for riding a bike to work everyday. I have spent most of life in horrible low income neighborhoods. I have never in my life meet a single mom who did her banking at the check into cash that said you know what would make my life better a bike to ride to my crap job/jobs. I have never meet a guy version of that person that had any interest in biking. those people need/want cars they have to transport kids carry tools time is not a resource they have riding bikes is wasting time(mega cities may be a exception)
You mentioned this isnt all about commuting. well that brings up the a question if its recreation. what makes you think poor people that are bike nerds want a feature less bike to play on?
Sounds more like the government should mandate this to me. Its really the only way all the things described could ever happen in a country this size.
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There is plenty of data on the question of "why people don't use bikes for transportation," and cost is not a top factor; more often, people cite safety and infrastructure concerns -- in other words, they don't feel safe while riding along the shoulders of busy streets. With good bike infrastructure (bike lanes, paths, safer intersections, bike racks, etc), we could overcome the biggest hurdle for many people. After that, if cost is a factor, it's easily solvable with means-tested subsidies (or tax breaks), incentives for employers to provide bike-friendly facilities (secure storage, showers, etc), even directly subsidized bikes. (Bike share or citi-bike programs are an example. There's no reason why low-income people couldn't be provided with free access.)
Simply wishing and hoping for bikes to cost less is not a solution.
#70
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Originally Posted by Koyote
This is the part that UniChris , and the author of the article linked in the original post, have completely missed: getting low-income/low-wealth people on bikes could most effectively be accomplished with government intervention.
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$250 price points unbanked bicyclists co op bike cost inflation Breezer or State brand noob workshops $timulus Checks
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The article linked in the first post was about people who want and need them, but can't get them.
That's not to deny that many would probably prefer a car if they had the choice, but that's orders of magnitude further out of reach.
Economic desperation bike transport is very much a thing.
But yes, it's true that the reason good inexpensive bikes aren't on the market when they could be, is that it would take a joint change on both the selling and buying side - neither could switch without the other.
Last edited by UniChris; 03-25-21 at 07:54 AM.
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Our tax dollars already heavily subsidize an auto-centric lifestyle; wouldn't it be smarter to put some of those resources towards cycling?
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I'm not actually arguing for single speed in the US market, but speaking as someone neither young nor fit who rides centuries on such...
Ironically if you look at "the world" you do see a lot of single speed (two foot gear is underappreciated) - but again, I don't think it's actually necessary to pare things down that far.
But, again, you haven’t identified any item on a bicycle that could be pared down so as to get the cost of a durable bicycle below around $500.
But notice how share bikes are often 3-speed tanks, yet very popular.
It's what being able to use index shifting demands in terms of manufacturing accuracy and adjustment from the derailleur. Give the rider a continuous control, and they'll quickly learn to accomplish whatever getting the chain on the sprocket they want and having it run there smoothly is going to take on that particular day.
Instead of a mechanism that needs adjustment to stay working, you have a mechanism that needs a few minutes worth of learning to ride with.
Instead of a mechanism that needs adjustment to stay working, you have a mechanism that needs a few minutes worth of learning to ride with.
You have the perfect model of how to make a budget bike in the HelMart Heavys (and similar). You end up with a bicycle that is heavy, unreliable, too expensive to fix, and is a danger to its rider. Making them a bit better and doubling the price probably would only make a bike that is slightly better. My co-op scraps hundreds of these kinds of bikes per year. Even with free labor and reclaimed parts, they aren’t worth the effort of even stripping the parts from them. I took about 6 tons of them to the scrap yard last summer.
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The biggest thing with department store bikes is that the assembly is such a roll of the dice. Retail assembly is usually done by piece-rate contract assemblers, rather than store employees, and there's neither time nor room allowed for more than a cursory function check, let alone a test-ride. If you, the buyer have little to no mechanical knowledge, particularly about adjusting bike components, then you may get home with a bike that doesn't work right, and no other option than to return it to the store for another one.
There are some not-bad bikes out there. A quick walk through the bike aisle at Target this morning turned up a couple of interesting tidbits:
At $259 : The Schwinn Ranger 26" MTB. All steel, even the bars and seatpost. 3x7 'A' series Grip-shift Shimano, with V-brakes. I actually have a used one, that my 12-year-old learned how to ride on. It's definitely a cost-point bike, but it doesn't have any silly features, other than a basic coil-spring fork, and has been holding up well to the bumps and bangs of a rookie rider. I'm not surprised that it seems to be durable, it probably weighs 40 lbs. It's a tank.
For $110 more (that's $369) is the Schwinn Circuit hybrid; Aluminum frame, all Tourney with Rapidfire shifters and mech disk brakes. Shipping weight is listed as 31lbs, but it feels lighter than that on the stand. It also surprised me for how well turned-out it is. Replaceable RD hanger, rack and fender mounts, even mid-mounts on the front fork. The cranks (and probably the BB) are the only thing obviously cheap-looking, but it appears to be a standard threaded unit, so it's easy to remedy if needed.
Seriously considering this one as an upgrade for Mr Skinnylegs when he outgrows that 15" frame MTB
There are some not-bad bikes out there. A quick walk through the bike aisle at Target this morning turned up a couple of interesting tidbits:
At $259 : The Schwinn Ranger 26" MTB. All steel, even the bars and seatpost. 3x7 'A' series Grip-shift Shimano, with V-brakes. I actually have a used one, that my 12-year-old learned how to ride on. It's definitely a cost-point bike, but it doesn't have any silly features, other than a basic coil-spring fork, and has been holding up well to the bumps and bangs of a rookie rider. I'm not surprised that it seems to be durable, it probably weighs 40 lbs. It's a tank.
For $110 more (that's $369) is the Schwinn Circuit hybrid; Aluminum frame, all Tourney with Rapidfire shifters and mech disk brakes. Shipping weight is listed as 31lbs, but it feels lighter than that on the stand. It also surprised me for how well turned-out it is. Replaceable RD hanger, rack and fender mounts, even mid-mounts on the front fork. The cranks (and probably the BB) are the only thing obviously cheap-looking, but it appears to be a standard threaded unit, so it's easy to remedy if needed.
Seriously considering this one as an upgrade for Mr Skinnylegs when he outgrows that 15" frame MTB
Last edited by Ironfish653; 03-25-21 at 09:07 AM.