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Training Status??? (IV)

Old 05-05-20, 02:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
Don't wait, just do one. The time will fly by and you'll suddenly see your outdoor watts appear indoors. It's a bit of a learning curve to figure out how to stay in the "pack" without ending up on the front, and the sprinting is nothing like in real life. Everyone goes too early and Zwift overestimates drafting distances. You can spring at 150 and still gap dudes by several bike lengths if you've got the pop. You can also ride "through" other riders instead of having to go around them, so there's almost no tactics involved.
Thanks, maybe I will soonish. Any insider tips? I can read some generic articles online. I get that there's a fast start, and that they're typically an hour (or so). Any ideas on which event to select? I'm about 4.5 - 4.6 w/kg at threshold but my strenghts are really pursuity-type efforts and over/under (TTT and breakaway). Should I start out in B? Based on their self-selected categorization I'm an A, but I don't think I'll be winning many races if it turns out to be a long constant effort.
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Old 05-05-20, 03:25 PM
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Originally Posted by TMonk View Post
Thanks, maybe I will soonish. Any insider tips? I can read some generic articles online. I get that there's a fast start, and that they're typically an hour (or so). Any ideas on which event to select? I'm about 4.5 - 4.6 w/kg at threshold but my strenghts are really pursuity-type efforts and over/under (TTT and breakaway). Should I start out in B? Based on their self-selected categorization I'm an A, but I don't think I'll be winning many races if it turns out to be a long constant effort.
Don't start in the B's...you'll demolish them. Get your Zwift Power account setup before you start racing, as your races won't "count" unless you have it already going (if you care). The starts are like crits for the first few minutes, and just like crits you should do everything in your power (lol) to stay with the lead group. If you get dropped, catching back on is H A R D if not impossible. On a flat course, once a rhythm is established you'll just sit in z2/3 in the pack with little pops when even the slightest uphill hits. On a hilly course, you'll be full-on threshold or worse on the climbs with very little effort on the descents.

Here's a hilly B race vs a flat A race. I solo'd away on the B race with ease, but there's no way I'd be able to get away on the flat A race, even though it was a significantly-easier race.

Hilly B:


Flat A:

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Old 05-05-20, 03:45 PM
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Thanks for the pro tips, I look fwd to it!
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Old 05-05-20, 10:25 PM
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Long, hard run yesterday. 15 miles, 4k feet of elevation, almost all on dirt. Today was group ride.. but I missed the start. In my effort to catch up I took a detour.. which ran me rihght into a train. All the way around and at that point no chance in hell I'm catching. So Solo TT it is.
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Old 05-06-20, 06:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Ttoc6 View Post
Long, hard run yesterday. 15 miles, 4k feet of elevation, almost all on dirt. Today was group ride.. but I missed the start. In my effort to catch up I took a detour.. which ran me rihght into a train. All the way around and at that point no chance in hell I'm catching. So Solo TT it is.
Did I read that right? 15mi 4000 foot elevation RUN?

Wheeewwwww!
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Old 05-06-20, 06:35 AM
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I was a bit bummed last night doing some 1:1 and 30:30's up the hill out the door of my house. Didn't feel strong, numbers on the display didn't look stellar.

Looking in Strava this morning, it's much better than assumed. My 1:1 was actually at 400+ for each and my 30:30's at 430 to 460w. So, all good.

I think the first set being the 1:1's I dug a little too deep the first two and did like 465 or something. Made the rest of the workout really feel the ****.

Off today. Couple hours tempo tomorrow.
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Old 05-06-20, 07:02 AM
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Trying to use my wife's Kickr for sprint intervals. It's not going terribly well. I'm adjusting resistance manually, but I cannot seem to hit the sweet spot for how much resistance I need. Basically, if I set the resistance to high, I struggle to get it going and launch my effort. But if I set it too low, after about 10s, inertia takes over; my cadence keeps climbing but my power just slowly drops. I think I may go back to the fluid trainer for everything but starts.

I'm also quite surprised by the different power numbers I'm seeing on the Wahoo app and from my SRM.
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Old 05-06-20, 07:40 AM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Trying to use my wife's Kickr for sprint intervals. It's not going terribly well. I'm adjusting resistance manually, but I cannot seem to hit the sweet spot for how much resistance I need. Basically, if I set the resistance to high, I struggle to get it going and launch my effort. But if I set it too low, after about 10s, inertia takes over; my cadence keeps climbing but my power just slowly drops. I think I may go back to the fluid trainer for everything but starts.

I'm also quite surprised by the different power numbers I'm seeing on the Wahoo app and from my SRM.
Kickr? Slope mode? It should act like a fluid trainer. You could change gears like you would wind up a real sprint.

I've never tried it, I've only done sprint stuff on the sprint banners in Zwift.
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Old 05-06-20, 08:13 AM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
Trying to use my wife's Kickr for sprint intervals. It's not going terribly well. I'm adjusting resistance manually, but I cannot seem to hit the sweet spot for how much resistance I need. Basically, if I set the resistance to high, I struggle to get it going and launch my effort. But if I set it too low, after about 10s, inertia takes over; my cadence keeps climbing but my power just slowly drops. I think I may go back to the fluid trainer for everything but starts.

I'm also quite surprised by the different power numbers I'm seeing on the Wahoo app and from my SRM.
Is Wahoo overstating or understating your power?
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Old 05-06-20, 08:28 AM
  #14760  
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Yesterday 2 hour ride along the coast with intervals 3x10” sprints, then 1’ then 2x2:30 and then an extended Torrey Pines climb over/under +15% over and -5% under. Just trying to keep the high end...high and not turn to crap.
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Old 05-06-20, 09:20 AM
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Used a segment that I've been hunting to dictate a ~14-min stochastic set, then another segment (that I already held) as a 6-min burner effort after the stochastic set. Ended up taking the first segment, then resetting the KOM on the one I already held. I did roughly the same wattage on the 6-min segment, but weigh less now compared to when I set the initial KOM. As a pat on my own back, I set that KOM at the beginning of a ride last year on fresh legs, whereas last night was at the end of a ride after a 13-min watt dump. Makes me wonder what some fresh legs would do this year.

Stochastic:


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Old 05-06-20, 09:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
Is Wahoo overstating or understating your power?
Over.
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Old 05-06-20, 09:48 AM
  #14763  
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Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
Stochastic:
Word of the day right there! I learned something.
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Old 05-06-20, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
Used a segment that I've been hunting to dictate a ~14-min stochastic set, then another segment (that I already held) as a 6-min burner effort after the stochastic set. Ended up taking the first segment, then resetting the KOM on the one I already held. I did roughly the same wattage on the 6-min segment, but weigh less now compared to when I set the initial KOM. As a pat on my own back, I set that KOM at the beginning of a ride last year on fresh legs, whereas last night was at the end of a ride after a 13-min watt dump. Makes me wonder what some fresh legs would do this year.

Stochastic:


27 mph is REALLY fast for 320w.
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Old 05-06-20, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by procrit View Post
27 mph is REALLY fast for 320w, that's solid for a TT bike.
I've done well in honing my aero position on the road bike. This one was a "stay small, hit the uphills hard, carry power over the top, try to retain speed into the next one, repeat." Aside from the first 1.3 miles, there are zero flat bits on the segment, so the nature of this road makes a TT bike a bit of a handful, and might actually be slower (for me).
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Old 05-06-20, 01:15 PM
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Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
I've done well in honing my aero position on the road bike. This one was a "stay small, hit the uphills hard, carry power over the top, try to retain speed into the next one, repeat." Aside from the first 1.3 miles, there are zero flat bits on the segment, so the nature of this road makes a TT bike a bit of a handful, and might actually be slower (for me).
I've started to work on mine as well. I know I'll have my power back soon, but being able to put that down while being aero and reasonably comfortable is something else.

What width bars are you running?
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Old 05-06-20, 01:34 PM
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Originally Posted by procrit View Post
I've started to work on mine as well. I know I'll have my power back soon, but being able to put that down while being aero and reasonably comfortable is something else.

What width bars are you running?
I'm currently on 44's, but looking into 42's or even 40's. I really like the extra width for stability, but it's just wind resistance if I'm aero'd out. I rarely use the hoods when I'm tucked and much prefer "forearming it". I do have broad shoulders, so there are pluses and minuses with narrow bars.
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Old 05-06-20, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
I'm currently on 44's, but looking into 42's or even 40's. I really like the extra width for stability, but it's just wind resistance if I'm aero'd out. I rarely use the hoods when I'm tucked and much prefer "forearming it". I do have broad shoulders, so there are pluses and minuses with narrow bars.
Ah ok. I'm going to try some narrow bars and see how it works. Worst case I'll go back to 44's, but I think 40 (or possibly narrower) may get me more aero.
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Old 05-06-20, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by procrit View Post
Ah ok. I'm going to try some narrow bars and see how it works. Worst case I'll go back to 44's, but I think 40 (or possibly narrower) may get me more aero.
I assume that you know this but many times as one narrows the bars and rounds the shoulders, the head pops up. So any gain in narrower bar width is more than offset by the head being in the wind. This is especially true with aerobars where racers try to get their arms as close together as possible.

As long as the head position remains the same or is improved a narrower bar is generally faster.

A few years ago, Scatto 34 or 35 cm bars were the rage at the track and about a .1 seconds faster in the flying 200 meters than more traditional width bars. I have Scatto bars. They are nice but narrow and not as comfortable. I practice turtling my head a lot so it is not a problem. I find them not as good for standing starts due to the width.
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Old 05-06-20, 05:27 PM
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Being stuck indoors with no real goal anytime soon has put me in a stagnated point somewhere around 75-80, and about 10 watts short of where I should be. Outdoor riding really puts the accents on your performance (at least for me it does) and doing mainly sweet spot indoors isn't going to put me at any peak.
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Old 05-06-20, 05:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
I assume that you know this but many times as one narrows the bars and rounds the shoulders, the head pops up. So any gain in narrower bar width is more than offset by the head being in the wind. This is especially true with aerobars where racers try to get their arms as close together as possible.

As long as the head position remains the same or is improved a narrower bar is generally faster.

A few years ago, Scatto 34 or 35 cm bars were the rage at the track and about a .1 seconds faster in the flying 200 meters than more traditional width bars. I have Scatto bars. They are nice but narrow and not as comfortable. I practice turtling my head a lot so it is not a problem. I find them not as good for standing starts due to the width.
Well, I just tried 38's (40 in the drops), and it's actually pretty comfortable. My jacket size is 38-40. I'll have to take some pictures to see what it looks like, but it "feels" good. I guess proof will be actual speed vs watts.
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Old 05-07-20, 07:57 AM
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Tested the 38's today, I'm not sure I'm any faster, but it's hard to say. I beat my TT time from Tuesday by a handful of seconds but I also pushed a few extra watts. Wind was definitely more favorable Tuesday though. Either way, if it's faster it's not by much.
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Old 05-07-20, 08:09 AM
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still doing the sweet spot thing, going well, I try and be done by 9 to help my son with his school stuff, so I basically get up at 7ish, have my coffee and get going. at least in the SSB1 HV phase of trainerroad I can easily get by without additional fuel before or during a workout.

Anyhow, I thought of this Joker line in the dark knight as a funny cycling meme during these no-racing times (mainly aimed at any competitors getting training PR's at the moment lol)

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Old 05-07-20, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by procrit View Post
Tested the 38's today, I'm not sure I'm any faster, but it's hard to say. I beat my TT time from Tuesday by a handful of seconds but I also pushed a few extra watts. Wind was definitely more favorable Tuesday though. Either way, if it's faster it's not by much.
IMO, field testing equipment for small changes in CdA is hard to do and subject to inaccuracies. If you test on different days, Rho (air density) will be different. The fastest conditions are low air pressure, high temperature and high humidity. I use the indoor track at Carson and hire ERO to use their program, equipment and sensors. ERO measures Rho at the time of the test.
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Old 05-07-20, 08:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
IMO, field testing equipment for small changes in CdA is hard to do and subject to inaccuracies. If you test on different days, Rho (air density) will be different. The fastest conditions are low air pressure, high temperature and high humidity. I use the indoor track at Carson and hire ERO to use their program, equipment and sensors. ERO measures Rho at the time of the test.
I didn't even think of that. Density altitude was 1000 ft on Tuesday, and -100 ft today... Looking at the numbers that is worth almost .5 mph, which means even with just 4 more watts, today's time would've been closer to 40 seconds faster, not 7.

Edit: I'm going to keep testing the 38cm bars for a while. They are definitely different feeling, but not really less stable. Cornering and making power out of the saddle in the drops felt fine and staying tucked up / aero was easier on the hoods. 165 mm cranks come in today, hopefully I can have that ready to test for this weekend. I ran the loop in a more comfortable position and made 300w no problem, but tucked up 280-290 is difficult to average. If I can get the power back to just 300w while aero, then the time should drop another 20 seconds or so. It's also weird not having my old FTP. These numbers look so low lol.

Last edited by procrit; 05-07-20 at 09:39 AM.
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