Notices
Professional Cycling For the Fans Follow the Tour de France,the Giro de Italia, the Spring Classics, or other professional cycling races? Here's your home...

More doping talk

Old 02-25-20, 08:06 PM
  #26  
Doge
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,003

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 151 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3164 Post(s)
Liked 151 Times in 110 Posts
Originally Posted by Riv-Lantis View Post
That reminds me of Dave Zabriskie riding a fixed gear up a mountain with Floyd Landis for the State Bicycle video. He pretty much says you work so hard to get to that level and then find out it's not what you though it was, referring to the doping you have to do to stay with a team at the top tier.
I really hate to say this, but at this point if you're a kid coming up through the ranks you have to know the score when you're looking to make the jump up to a World Tour team. There's no way you can be that naive after spending enough time in racing.
Without proof, just assumptions, that is a reason we guided our kid out of the pro cycling direction. Even if you are clean, folks think you aren't. I am nostalgic about it, but pretty sure it was a good move.
Doge is offline  
Old 02-26-20, 05:52 PM
  #27  
Martin_T
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Posts: 11
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Martin_T is offline  
Old 02-26-20, 06:46 PM
  #28  
Rajflyboy
Banned.
Thread Starter
 
Rajflyboy's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2018
Location: Carolinas
Posts: 1,293

Bikes: Orbea

Mentioned: 8 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 917 Post(s)
Liked 202 Times in 168 Posts
What about all those guys that cheated and lost?
Rajflyboy is offline  
Old 03-07-20, 02:28 PM
  #29  
obrentharris 
Senior Member
 
obrentharris's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2012
Location: San Francisco Bay Area
Posts: 2,930

Bikes: fewer (n-1)

Mentioned: 56 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 780 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 437 Times in 216 Posts
Originally Posted by BengalCat View Post
In most elite world-class highly physical sports doping has and is common. In cycling is has been so since the early nineties. In other sports such as track and field decade(s) earlier. People should accept it as it is never going to change and learn to get over it.
You must be much younger than I am. It would give me some hope if your timeline were correct but if you Google "Tommy Simpson" or "Jaques Anquetil" and you will find that doping has been prevalent in professional cycling since long before the early nineties.
Brent
obrentharris is online now  
Likes For obrentharris:
Old 03-07-20, 02:47 PM
  #30  
BengalCat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2015
Location: Brentwood WLA
Posts: 321

Bikes: 50/34, 11-40, 11 Speed

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 135 Post(s)
Liked 68 Times in 49 Posts
Originally Posted by obrentharris View Post
You must be much younger than I am. It would give me some hope if your timeline were correct but if you Google "Tommy Simpson" or "Jaques Anquetil" and you will find that doping has been prevalent in professional cycling since long before the early nineties.
Brent
In cycling when I say doping I'm referring mostly to the introduction on a team basis with the availability of the relatively new drug EPO. The cycling team-wide use of EPO that we know about started in the early nineties as did the modern systemic doping using the combo regimen of EPO, anabolic steroids, blood doping, and transfusions. Before that, yes cyclists going back many decades were always trying something, most of which didn't work.

With track and field, it was mostly anabolic steroids, especially for athletes in disciplines such as sprints and shotput, we are talking seventies onward. The EPO usage came along about the same time as cycling.
BengalCat is offline  
Old 04-13-20, 01:34 PM
  #31  
hrdknox1
Senior Member
 
hrdknox1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 55 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times in 23 Posts
Originally Posted by Miele Man View Post
I figure that if the leaders in a grand tour are doping and if others are keeping up with them that it only stands to reason that those others must be doping too.

It's not about the bike; it's about the dope and whether or not you get caught doping.

Cheers
Exactly. Look at the performance of Chris Froome in Stage 19 of the 2018 Giro D'Italia. With 80Km remaining in the stage he went on the attack and stayed away to the finish to win the stage by almost 4 minutes. Who does that? Before the stage he was 3:22 minutes behind in the general classification, and with such an insurmountable deficit he was considered not to even podium. What changed after Stage 18? He must of had some super duper enhancement....something that made him superior to his mere mortal rivals.
hrdknox1 is offline  
Old 04-13-20, 02:02 PM
  #32  
Iride01
Senior Member
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 3,820

Bikes: '20 Tarmac Disc Comp '91 Schwinn Paramount '78 Raleigh Competition GS

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1431 Post(s)
Liked 382 Times in 294 Posts
Well Froome started that stage in 4th place for GC and the fifth place Pinot Thibaut was already 1:02 behind Froome. Others behind Pinot rapidly getting further behind in overall time. Yates who was number one GC finished stage 19 in 79th place 38:51 back. POZZOVIVO started the stage 3rd in GC but finished 11th and 8:29 back. Dumoulin, who might have kept with Froome waited for Pinot that had broken a spoke. So Dumoulin finished 5th and 3:23 back.

Can't exactly claim doping when there is plenty of circumstance and strategy that came into play also during the last half of the stage.

Last edited by Iride01; 04-13-20 at 02:06 PM.
Iride01 is offline  
Likes For Iride01:
Old 04-13-20, 02:37 PM
  #33  
hrdknox1
Senior Member
 
hrdknox1's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2014
Posts: 126
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 55 Post(s)
Liked 31 Times in 23 Posts
Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Well Froome started that stage in 4th place for GC and the fifth place Pinot Thibaut was already 1:02 behind Froome. Others behind Pinot rapidly getting further behind in overall time. Yates who was number one GC finished stage 19 in 79th place 38:51 back. POZZOVIVO started the stage 3rd in GC but finished 11th and 8:29 back. Dumoulin, who might have kept with Froome waited for Pinot that had broken a spoke. So Dumoulin finished 5th and 3:23 back.

Can't exactly claim doping when there is plenty of circumstance and strategy that came into play also during the last half of the stage.
No, you can't exactly claim doping, but it is highly likely that was the case. If circumstances and strategy were so poor to allow a rider of his stature to go off alone with 80km remaining, then those team managers need to rethink their strategies.

Last edited by hrdknox1; 04-14-20 at 09:45 AM.
hrdknox1 is offline  
Old 04-14-20, 09:46 AM
  #34  
HeyItsSara
Meet me at spin class!!!!
 
HeyItsSara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: NY
Posts: 115

Bikes: Precor recumbant indoor bike, Stages bike at Equinox gym

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked 20 Times in 15 Posts
In the original, first Tour, the riders chugged coffee. They used whatever they could, in every single race. Doping is part of the sport.
HeyItsSara is offline  
Old 04-16-20, 05:40 AM
  #35  
ZHVelo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Posts: 307
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Liked 97 Times in 63 Posts
Originally Posted by HeyItsSara View Post
In the original, first Tour, the riders chugged coffee. They used whatever they could, in every single race. Doping is part of the sport.
Did they over the years not also take trains or ride cars and the like?
ZHVelo is offline  
Old 04-16-20, 06:28 AM
  #36  
ZHVelo
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2020
Location: Zurich, Switzerland
Posts: 307
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 190 Post(s)
Liked 97 Times in 63 Posts
Originally Posted by Riv-Lantis View Post
I also find it laughable that you see articles and stories on the cycling sites that speak of this incredible new talent that's coming in a winning races at crazy young ages and the speeds are faster than ever. Then acting like it's the human genome that's evolving to make these kids faster at younger ages.
Are they faster than ever though? And if they are, is it just compared to his generation? If not, how much is technological progress responsible? How much is the internet responsible for hyping up such a talent?

And isn't it the same in every sport? You always have a few exceptional talents in every generation. How is that evidence for doping?

And it's the same not just in sport, how many humans alive today are in the same league as Einstein / Newton / Gauss? I find it very hard to believe that we should believe exceptions must be doping, since that implies without doping all the riders would be within a few % of each other. That is absolutely not the case, in any setting.
ZHVelo is offline  
Likes For ZHVelo:
Old 04-20-20, 08:58 AM
  #37  
OBoile
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Posts: 1,580
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 916 Post(s)
Liked 224 Times in 132 Posts
Originally Posted by ZHVelo View Post
Are they faster than ever though? And if they are, is it just compared to his generation? If not, how much is technological progress responsible? How much is the internet responsible for hyping up such a talent?

And isn't it the same in every sport? You always have a few exceptional talents in every generation. How is that evidence for doping?

And it's the same not just in sport, how many humans alive today are in the same league as Einstein / Newton / Gauss? I find it very hard to believe that we should believe exceptions must be doping, since that implies without doping all the riders would be within a few % of each other. That is absolutely not the case, in any setting.
The effect of doping is far more significant than the few % points (and yes, elite pros are all within a few % points of each other) difference between the top guys. The effects of doping, in cycling at least, are also far more significant than the effects of advancements in technology.

This isn't to say that exceptional talents don't exist, but it would be foolish to not treat them as suspect given cycling's past and the decisive effects of performance enhancing drugs in cycling.
OBoile is offline  
Old 05-21-20, 07:42 PM
  #38  
procrit
carbon is too light
 
procrit's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Texas
Posts: 1,045

Bikes: Yes.

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 46 Post(s)
Liked 68 Times in 38 Posts
Originally Posted by Rajflyboy View Post
Well

but the young kid who wants to stay "Clean" is virtually screwed and will never make it in the pro peleton staying clean.
Eh, not true. I know someone in the pro peloton that doesn't dope and he won a stage in a GT last year. The "everybody does it" is a cop out for the less talented and driven when they get caught.
procrit is offline  
Old 05-22-20, 09:58 AM
  #39  
HeyItsSara
Meet me at spin class!!!!
 
HeyItsSara's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2020
Location: NY
Posts: 115

Bikes: Precor recumbant indoor bike, Stages bike at Equinox gym

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 31 Post(s)
Liked 20 Times in 15 Posts
Say what you like but first of all, yes they did take trains and the like. Cheating is cheating.

2ndly, when Lance was forced to give back his awards, remember that they were not given to those who came in 2nd or 3rd. Those years were dirty.
HeyItsSara is offline  
Old 05-23-20, 08:22 AM
  #40  
one4smoke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Nashville, TN.
Posts: 1,838

Bikes: 2016 Specialized Roubaix SL4 - 2015 Giant Roam 2 Disc

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 531 Post(s)
Liked 117 Times in 85 Posts
Originally Posted by Riv-Lantis View Post
I'd say that 90% number is probably about right. Maybe a bit on the low side if just considering World Tour level teams. I'd venture that every one of those teams has a program.
I've gotten to where I simply don't care about the doping drama anymore. I like racing and I'll keep watching.
These doping stories sell because people generally love drama. And the more drama that can be wrapped up around the periphery of racing, the more it keep people hooked into talking about it constantly.
Exactly this for me.
one4smoke is offline  
Old 05-23-20, 05:00 PM
  #41  
BlazingPedals
Senior Member
 
BlazingPedals's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Middle of da Mitten
Posts: 11,522

Bikes: Trek 7500, RANS V-Rex, Optima Baron, Velokraft NoCom, M-5 Carbon Highracer, Catrike Speed

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1157 Post(s)
Liked 233 Times in 164 Posts
Originally Posted by Riv-Lantis View Post
I really hate to say this, but at this point if you're a kid coming up through the ranks you have to know the score when you're looking to make the jump up to a World Tour team. There's no way you can be that naive after spending enough time in racing.
Yes, a guy in my bike club was offered a position with a pro team. They laid out what his drug regimen would be. He said "No thanks" and never looked back. He never mentioned which team. He is recently retired from a real job.
BlazingPedals is offline  
Old 05-25-20, 11:02 PM
  #42  
Doge
Senior Member
 
Doge's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2014
Location: Southern California, USA
Posts: 10,003

Bikes: 1979 Raleigh Team 753

Mentioned: 151 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3164 Post(s)
Liked 151 Times in 110 Posts
Originally Posted by Riv-Lantis View Post
...if you're a kid coming up through the ranks you have to know the score when you're looking to make the jump up to a World Tour team. There's no way you can be that naive after spending enough time in racing.
Right, kinda. The kids do not know the score, the parents may, or suspect they may. Which is why you get your kid out of it.
For those watching, look at USA juniors on the world stage. Then look a few years later. Called parenting.
Doge is offline  
Old 07-17-20, 09:17 AM
  #43  
Prodigy4299
Senior Member
 
Prodigy4299's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Oslo, Norway
Posts: 376

Bikes: 1990 Trek 850, 2005 Cannondale R1000, 2019 Cannondale Topstone 105

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 13 Post(s)
Liked 4 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by ridelikeaturtle View Post
It's a rationalization, a coping mechanism, to throw it out there that "everyone's cheating", to justify the fact that /you're cheating/. They know it's wrong; it's /less wrong/ if everyone is cheating too.
Yes, it's totally this. I'm not saying that the peloton is clean as a whistle, but 90%? It's not the mid-2000's anymore.
Prodigy4299 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.