Dreww10

Sought some race training advice here in another thread that has since run its course, and through that training regimen I've encountered significant troubles with recovery that have so far wrecked my season.

Although my mileage total for the year is at an all-time high (I was able to start earlier in the year) my mileage per week/month is right on-par with seasons past. But, on the advice of those on this forum, I began with heavy Z2 training and strict polarization, and so my power output per mile is drastically lower than any previous year. But the issue is that my legs and body have taken to becoming and staying sore from ANY ride of any output, and remaining there no matter my hydration, my eating, or rest time.

As an example, If I ride 30-40 miles at a Z2 (HR) pace, I'll be sore for days. If I do just one 3 minute interval (I've had to abandon every interval session this year after just 1-2 reps because my legs were already obliterated) it introduces throbbing pain in the legs that takes about two weeks to reside. I've only been in 2-3 hard group rides all year, and so my truly hard efforts have been limited, but that doesn't really explain why even a recovery ride (with HR in the 95-110 range) will leave me sore and lethargic for days. Now, admittedly, I don't take many days off, but any kind of hard effort is followed by legitimate, slow recovery days, so I'm by no means out punishing myself day after day.

I stay plenty hydrated, and eat more than enough. I follow every ride with a couple glasses of chocolate milk and immediately go for protein, carbs, or both, and always get a meal in within the hour. Interestingly, though, and a change from anything I've experienced before, is that any soreness I feel when I get off the bike is multiplied five-fold in the 2-3 hours after the ride...can feel just a little soreness/fatigue when I finish the ride and be in pain later. My legs and body just stay lethargic, sore, and weak all the time, every day.

The only thing I haven't done is take an extended rest period off the bike, but given how much pain is inflicted from even the easiest of rides, I just don't see it being beneficial...that I'll take a break, freshen up, and be wrecked again after the first ride anyway. I've taken 2-3 consecutive days off a couple of times and not recovered or freshened up at all.

Any thoughts, comments, suggestions to get past this?

Xherion

Some ideas in no particular order:
- Breaks here and there are important. Taking a few days or a week off the bike is important after heavy training blocks. I know that after getting into a routine, it can be hard mentally to take a break, but it is important.
- Unless you're a high level athlete, I tend to think recovery rides are more harmful than good. If you do recovery rides, keep them very short (30-45 min) and keep the power low. The point is more to get blood circulating to speed recovery. Otherwise just take the day off. Keep the legs elevated and catch up on rest/sleep.
- If you don't already have a Training Peaks/WKO account, it can be helpful to track your fitness and freshness through that app. You can sign up for a trial account to get a feel for it. It will keep a graph of your freshness, fitness and fatigue levels. It's pretty amazing to actually have your efforts quantified as a training stress. I would bet those Z2 rides actually have a higher training stress than you might think. The amount of information I learned from my training has been eye-opening. But it is a lot more valuable if you have a power meter - but minimally I think you'd need a HR monitor.
- Do plenty of stretching, foam rolling, compression leggings, get a message, etc. Getting blood circulated after a hard ride is important. I've personally found I can train more frequently and recover faster after heavy foam rolling, stretching and compression.
- Get plenty of sleep and keep your legs elevated
- Slowly increase your training load. Even one extra Z2-Z3 ride a week can have a significant metabolic cost. Physical adaptations to training stress take time.

Dreww10

That's the interesting part. I was able to ride nonstop through the winter, keeping a fairly high weekly training load, and even got in high-effort rides a couple of times a week. I switched gears to the aforementioned regimen in February, and so my weekly output is actually down from winter and certainly down from last year.

The frustrating part of this is that I can tell I've made huge gains in fitness but just struggle to show it often because I'm never fresh.

Drew Eckhardt 

Over-training will do that, with lower load the fix.

corrado33

Strava premium also does this.

Carbonfiberboy 

My guess is not nearly enough total protein in your diet. There's a very simple and harmless experiment you can do: Buy a tub of when protein. I use Optimum Nutrition Gold, flavored. Buy a 2 lb. tub online somewhere. It'll come with a 25g scoop, usually too large. Take 2/3 of a scoop with a little sugar before every ride, after every ride, before every meal w/o sugar, and a full scoop w/o sugar immediately before bed. This may be a little more than necessary, but it's harmless and it's an experiment so for sure you want to overdo, not underdo. If it's working, you should notice a difference in a week to 10 days. If you use other animal protein, cut back or eliminate that during the experiment to minimize the calorie increase.

If that doesn't work, something's gone weird with your protein metabolism. Any changes in your life, diet, or lifestyle, illnesses? Is your urine always the normal straw color?

sprince

Yes, sounds like a lack of something. When ever I've found myself with lasting muscle soreness, a whole pizza, bottle of chianti (~2800 calories, 90g protein, 260g carbs, 70g fat) and 9 hours sleep always does the trick. I would think you'd feel the difference the next day.

Heathpack 

How old are you? How many hours per week are you riding?

steve-in-kville 

I use this exact product. I buy mine from A1 Supplements out of Tennessee. Great product and fast shipping.

ETA: The chocolate is the best. The other flavors can be sketchy at best.

Dreww10

32 years old. Training is generally about 10 hours a week, with some weeks slightly more, some a little less. I put in the same per week last season and maintained about 5-10 hours all through the winter (averaged 6-7). So, at least in my mind, I haven't increased my training load at all, and given that I've reduced my output so much, I ought to be fresh and ready to rip at will. But my legs haven't even been up to doing a legitimate interval or hard ride one day in the last 6+ months.

sprince

This is not a training problem. That zone 2, long slow grind stuff doesn't agree with everyone, but at worst it would mean feeling a little lethargic for a few days and reducing power output a few percentage points. Doing 10 hrs a week at age 32 and obviously reasonably fit, regardless of of intensity, it would be extremely difficult to find yourself over trained. Even if you are doing 7 days a week with no breaks (although that is not productive). Unless of course there is something that you failed to mention. Has there been any significant change in your weight, body fat percentage, other exercise, diet, sleep or life style compared to last year?

You described this as throbbing pain. Is this pain that you feel any time you move, like getting out of a chair? Or is this pain that you only feel on the bike? Do you ever have pain when you are not moving? Is the pain localized, or does it affect both legs overall?

Heathpack 

Have you talked to a doctor? I would wonder if you might have developed an exertional myopathy. This is a pathologic condition in which you develop muscle damage or cramping with activity. Although your symptoms are different in important ways from his, a BF poster called @globecanvas recently experienced what seems to be an extertional myopathy. He found a lot of info on line. You could PM him, he's a nice guy.

But zone 2 rides do not normally result in muscle pain after a ride & it's not normal to be unable to complete a few intervals. I guess theoretically possible if you have your zones set weirdly, what are you using for HR zones & how did you determine your LTHR?

Dreww10

Might be up 4-5 lbs, but no significant changes. The only thing of mention is that I rode nonstop through the winter at 'junk mile' and occasionally anaerobic pace. Previous winters I've had significant rest periods, so this was a big change in how I entered the spring. But, reeled in the pace in early February to heavy Zone 2 stuff.

The best that I can explain the soreness is that it feels as though I just did a couple hundred squats. If I stay under 30-35 miles and ride slow, it's only moderately sore, but lingers for days. If I bust out one interval or sprint up even one hill, I'm in that did-squats-for-hours kind of pain...regardless of how easy I rode the rest of that particular ride.

I take a day or two off, but just ride through the soreness.

Rowan

I have to agree that there is something more amiss here than training loads unless they are set weirdly.

I don't usually suggest this, but seeing a doctor who has some inkling of sports physiology might be a good idea to start off with. You might run carbonfibreboy's protein experiment as well just to see.

Have you checked your heart rate on waking up in the morning to see if it is elevated above normal? That is one of the recognised signs of overtraining.

globecanvas

Sorry to hear you're having trouble, I know how frustrating it can be.

What I experienced is pretty different from what the OP is describing, though it might be something along the same spectrum. But if this has been going on for a long time (like a month or more), not episodic, then my first thought would be some type of chronic subclinical illness. I think you should go see your doctor. Think about anything that might be correlated with when these problems began: tick bite, travel to the tropics, etc. Whatever it is, I hope you figure it out.

deapee

I was going to mention a tick bite (or other insect).

I got nailed by a bug 2.5 weeks ago while on a ride and I developed a rash around it about the size of a folded-in-half dollar bill. It just grew and grew over the course of 2 weeks, so I went to the doc and it all turned out ok, but during that time I did a lot of bite research and it sounds similar to what you have. I never saw the bug, just felt it, and swatted it. It could have been anything.

The good news is that if it is related to an insect bite, I think most of the time a quick course of antibiotics and you're better.

--

If that's not it, I still think a trip to a doctor is the best bet. Just a regular physician and if you need a specialist, they would know where to send you.

sprince

Taking any new medications, supplements?

Normal muscle soreness from doing a few hundred squats would tend to get better, or go away completely, after 30 minutes on the bike. But what you seem to describe is the the opposite. It also wouldn't prevent you from doing intervals, although it might reduce the power output a little. Over training would reduce your energy levels noticeably and maybe kill your appetite, but it wouldn't cause persistent pain unless the over training resulted in an injury.

Regardless of the cause, your body is telling you to stop. If you see a doctor, the doctor is going to tell you to take a break. You may as well take a week off the bike and see what happens.

wphamilton

What is the downside of just stopping the rides until your muscles feel normal? Then take an easy ride, perhaps with the dietary and supplement suggestions, but monitoring yourself. It might solve your problem, at worst you'll have gathered some information.

Dreww10

I let my Garmin determine the zones based off of max HR. I don't know my LTHR exactly, but having ridden myself into the dirt for an hour many times over the last few years, I've been able to narrow it down to within 2-3 bpm.

Dreww10

I'm definitely overtrained. Twice in the last four weeks, I've had my HR fail to climb regardless of output, coming in about 15-20 beats low for a given effort. Followed those instances up with a couple days rest and/or ultra-slow recovery spins until the HR responds correctly again, but fall right back into it.

Being overtrained isn't really in question, but rather why it's taking so little training to be overtrained and why the muscle pain and the lethargy lingers for so long.

Carbonfiberboy 

You don't mention what your doctor said. You don't mention trying the protein therapy or anything else anyone has suggested.

If you keep doing the same thing, you'll keep getting the same result.

sprince

I have never heard of post exercise muscle soreness described as "muscle pain" and certainly not "throbbing pain". Throbbing pain is what you get from a headache, burst appendix or injury, while muscle soreness would eventually stop you from exercising. And if you were truly over trained it would get to the point where you couldn't do enough work to cause muscle soreness in the first place. I also think your heart rate would be abnormally elevated and not depressed (check hr first thing in the morning).

This doesn't match with typical over training. Possibly a recovery issue (eating, sleeping, stress, other), but sounds like something else to me (virus, circulation problem, medication, ?).

Carbonfiberboy 

We had a poster on here years ago with similar symptoms. Turned out to be rhabdomyolysis, unknown cause. That poster went away, never came back. It's a form of exertional myopathy as mentioned by Heathpack. So maybe exertional or nutritional as I was thinking with the protein post.

sprince

If you are adamant about the throbbing pain, and you are sure that you are doing everything that could be expected for recovery, why not see your doctor? Your suffering is accomplishing nothing. In your words, your season is wrecked, maybe there is time to salvage what is left.

Heathpack 

Well if you think you're overtrained, the only answer is time off the bike. Period. How long? However long it takes. It could take a long time.

If you're over-trained, you wonder why. The answer is to that question is always inadequate recovery. There are some hints of this being possible from your comments that you rarely take a day off the bike.

I am a 50 year old woman so in theory I can handle way less training load than you. But I also ride 9-10 hours per week on average (range is 4-14 hours). I ride year-round. I ride lots of intervals. I ride both recovery rides but more commonly I take complete days off the bike, at least two rest days per week- ie zero time on the bike. Four times since Jan, I've had 3-4 days in a row off the bike. All of this is on top of doing some recovery rides as well. I train with a power meter and a coach and don't follow the strict polarized training that people here talk about, but I am watched very closely. If you are putting your schedule together without adequate rest/recovery, you could have the symptoms that you describe. Of course you don't have to do exactly what I do- my coach schedules lots of rest because of my age, gender and the intensity of a lot of my workouts. But are you doing at least something like this?

Training with HR is also not as accurate as training with power. Maybe you can't afford power and if so, that's totally ok. But if you are struggling you should go back to the basics and look at your HR zones and know how they are set and whether you'd agree with what Garmin has done. If you are over-trained and you recover from that, why not just ride a test to determine your LTHR, since that is what you're basing your entire training on? Make sure you've got it right.