TheKillerPenguin

I will be in Boston this weekend for Harvard RR and team ride otherwise I would definitely go. Such a bummer

globecanvas

This is a mess. The White Plains organizers have not officially canceled yet afaik but they are looking at a $5k loss.

All of these races are the same day within a couple hours of NYC with low/untenable prereg:

White Plains, NY state crit - 207
Nutmeg, CT state crit - 137
Tour de Fish, NJ state crit - 127

Also this weekend:

Dave Jordan, high profile NYC central park race - 386
Harvard RR - 314
Whiteface hill climb - 289

Whatever the regional calendar coordination system is, it looks pretty broken!

mike868y

those reg numbers are a bummer, but i have a hard time believing it's due to calendar coordination. first of all, the next month at least in new england is booked solid with races, so I can't really think of a better calendar slot for harvard or nutmeg. also, do you really think dave jordan, harvard, and whiteface compete for the same entries? how much of the nyc crit racers would have done harvard if there wasn't a conflict? my guess is not many. i've never done white plains or tdf (hehe), but the low numbers for nutmeg are not surprising at all. let's be honest, that course kind of sucks. we've all raced it a million times and it's not interesting or fun. i'll probably race it, but i'll race anything. that promoter has also been a little slow in responding to the concerns of the community so it's not a shock people aren't jumping at the opportunity to support that race.

globecanvas

I dunno. I think White Plains, Nutmeg, and TdF are definitely cannibalizing each other. I mean, I'll probably do Nutmeg if WP gets canceled, and I bet half the racers registered for Nutmeg would come to WP if Nutmeg were canceled. I mean, you said you would race White Plains if Nutmeg were a different weekend. And Dave Jordan is definitely soaking up a bunch of the 5 borough guys -- that race is completely sold out.

The other races, all I can say is if Whiteface was a different weekend gsteinb would be racing a crit, and if Harvard were a different weekend TKP would be at White Plains.

globecanvas

White Plains is officially on, looks like they found some sponsors/donors despite not hitting their registration break-even.

mike868y

damn, nice!

i'm still on the fence depending on what my friends want to do.

hubcyclist

Looks like reg is open for this revived crit https://www.bikereg.com/fall-river-crit

As a native of the state's southcoast, I'll be happy to share eating advice

TheKillerPenguin

Yeah, it is weird how much overlap there is. Brinkerhoff and Brumble being on the same day sucked, I wanted to do both. Bristol Mtn happening during KSR was a bummer as well, I like that course but there's no way I was not doing Killington. Then 20 things happening this weekend. Is there no central calendar type thing for coordinating at a regional level?

mike868y

My uninformed impression is that calendar coordination is mostly done on the "regional" (i.e. NYSBRA, NEBRA, MABRA, etc.) and not across these designations.

topflightpro

I know our LA looks at other adjacent LA calendars when setting the calendar to avoid issues like this. Granted, our race calendar is so thin this year, it doesn't really matter.

mike868y

alright i'm in for white plains

grolby

Definitely interested in your eating advice for Fall River. I feel it would be easy to make some serious missteps in that department down there.

grolby

Getting promoters together in a single local BRA to figure out a calendar is tough enough, I imagine everyone would love for there to be better coordination and no doubt people try... but there are limited weekends during the race season and lots of constraints to consider before you even get to what's going on in the adjacent BRA.

mike868y

after this weekend there should no longer be a debating regarding white plains v. nutmeg...

TheKillerPenguin

The payout thing?

mike868y

yeah.

dude why weren't you at WP???

TheKillerPenguin

Teammates and I hit up Mt Wachussett and what seemed like every other climb y'all have in that area.

globecanvas

What payout thing?

carpediemracing 

Seems that the Nutmeg promoters (not sure who, technically) cut the P123 women's prize list from "equal to me" to "zero". I didn't know about it until Adam Myerson asked me if my race's prize money got cut to zero also. That was the first I heard of it.

The whole "equal to men" thing bugs me. If I were a promoter I'd reduce the men's to match the women's, then add primes or something. Have to work with lowest common denominator, and therefore work with the smaller women's fields.

globecanvas

Was that before or after he won Nationals this weekend?

mike868y

the "who" is rick comshaw.

not the mention the fact that nutmeg remaining the ct champs was contingent on equal payout between men and women.

i agree re: reducing men's payout to match the women. by and large I don't see people choosing local races based on payout (although maybe this is just my opinion because i never finish in the money...). also, ffs if you claim that you can't afford equal payout between men and women, why are you paying the cat 3 men?

on another, more positive note, what's the good word with giro de cielo? it's a dead weekend in new england, thinking of heading down to nj for that.

CHT

Hey everyone, just my $.02 as the WP Crit director. I would have responded sooner but it has been a very tough week leading up to race day on Sunday. There is never a perfect weekend without conflicts - Dave Jordan and our race have co-existed together for all 6 years we've been putting on the race. In fact, one year we worked with CRCA for an Omnium type payout if you raced both, and CRCA has always been supportive of our race and we have been supportive of them. I always make sure each year to check in with CRCA before setting our date. In fact, most years a huge percentage of our racers have been affiliated with a CRCA team. This year was the same - many of the racers had raced Dave Jordan the day before. Regarding Nutmeg, my understanding is that the promoter did not check the NY calendar (all NY promoters work together to try and eliminate any real local conflicts). I know he was close to cancelling, so I guess he cut payouts instead. I can sympathize with the pressures he is under and sympathized with his low registration numbers. However, personally I don't agree with some of his views on payout and fields.


We firmly believe in equal payout. We haven't been faced with the choice of lowering payouts, but if we did then it would be across the board (men and women with equal reductions). My view (and I'm not saying it's the right view but it's a view I believe in) is that we should have equal payouts for men and women (not just P/1/2/3 fields) - yes it impacts overall prize money. In fact, this year we had to lower the overall prize amount for men and women in the P/1/2/3 field (equally!). Even so, we still paid a very competitive amount. Last year when we made this decision it was easier because we had more funds.


Bigger picture, the numbers in our race and other races are progressively going lower year over year. Not all races - CRCA has a huge membership and it is incredibly convenient (although very early) to race in CP. This year we were also challenged to find enough volunteers to even run the event, and ended up spending a fair amount of money to ensure we had volunteers (not one racer took us up on our offer to race for free for a 2 hours volunteering commitment). Our costs are also going up year over year due to higher security and City costs. Weather is always a crapshoot, but there is nothing you can't control the weather.


All this seems pretty depressing, but I have to say after our message went out about potentially cancelling the event (the number was far greater than a $5K deficit by the way), several members of the cycling community came forward to backstop any potential deficit (we run the race not-for-profit), which enabled me to finally sleep at night and not cancel the race. It was heartwarming to hear their words and receive their financial backing, and to also see the incredible jump in registration numbers.


I write all of this for one simple reason - please continue to support your local races. We are lucky in the Northeast to have a multitude of choices. If you are faced with a choice, in the future I hope you choose our race. The challenges we faced this year are not going away, so there will be a lot of discussion on what we do moving forward and how to we avoid some of the challenges we faced this year.


Thanks for listening,


- Craig.

globecanvas

Thanks for the info @CHT! Check out the last couple of pages of the race report thread for some positive feedback on the race: https://www.bikeforums.net/33-road-bi...e-results.html

I'm on the side of zero payouts for all but the pro fields. Even a chintzy medal is a more lasting good memory than a few extra bucks to blow on dinner. I always give any prize money back to the promoter. I keep actual prizes (case of beer or whatever) and primes though

FWIW I didn't see the volunteer email, I assume it was a note in a longer email or something. It might be better communicated as a note on the registration page, maybe emphasizing that volunteering is doing a good deed that helps the race survive.

I'm already looking forward to next year!

mike868y

Thanks for the post CHT. This was my first year at WP (from boston so it's a bit of a haul) and it was a great event. Thank you for all the work you've put into it. I hope the race continues in the future!

globecanvas

I will definitely be there along with at least one teammate and trying to lure others down too (paging TKP). It is a fun, low key event. I've done the crit course a dozen times and the RR twice. I might do the P123 this year instead of masters depending on the teammate situation.