Carbon Wheels & Rim Brake
#1
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2022
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 26 Times
in
22 Posts
Carbon Wheels & Rim Brake
Hey all. I invite your thoughts on using carbon wheels with rim brakes. I have been on an endeavor to build a new CRIT bike and posted lots of queries here. But alas, I just had a huge financial burden unexpectedly hit me and need to put the project off. BUT, I already have a pretty nice aluminum frame in the form of an older "Motobecane" (Bike Direct) 7005 aluminum frame "Record" model. I took it out this weekend and was really surprised at how stiff it is and how well it accelerates. I have a set of cheap "SuperTeam" carbon wheels on it. Not too light for carbon, but surprisingly stiff. I used the bike to just speed around the neighborhood. But I'm advised that using rim brake on direct carbon wheels is a no-no. The wheels are total carbon, so the brakes apply directly to a carbon surface. I saw a video from a carbon frame expert wherein he opines that the rim brake will wear at the carbon quickly and make it unsafe at some point, maybe when I'm not expecting a failure. The bike breaks just fine for my basic needs, but maybe not for repeated applications when going fast. But what are your thoughts on this topic? Any suggestions? Thanks!
#2
Should Be More Popular
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 43,059
Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix
Mentioned: 560 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22600 Post(s)
Liked 8,928 Times
in
4,160 Posts
Carbon Fiber rim brakes are an option but they have limitations. Braking is not as good as with aluminum. Braking in the wet is especially bad. Not good for really long descents as they can overheat and pop a tube.
That said, they may likely be lighter and more aero than their aluminum counterparts, so worth considering. Like most things, it depends on your goals, circumstances, and budget.
If you get CF wheels you really MUST use carbon specific pads and not go back/forth with those pads between CF and aluminum braking surfaces. That would wear out the CF brake track super fast.
FWIW I run CF rim brakes May-September and aluminum October-April. Swapping out the pads is a minor annoyance.
That said, they may likely be lighter and more aero than their aluminum counterparts, so worth considering. Like most things, it depends on your goals, circumstances, and budget.
If you get CF wheels you really MUST use carbon specific pads and not go back/forth with those pads between CF and aluminum braking surfaces. That would wear out the CF brake track super fast.
FWIW I run CF rim brakes May-September and aluminum October-April. Swapping out the pads is a minor annoyance.
#4
Over the hill
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Los Angeles, CA
Posts: 24,376
Bikes: Giant Defy, Giant Revolt
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 998 Post(s)
Liked 1,206 Times
in
692 Posts
There are many (just make sure they say they are for carbon rims), but Kool Stop Carbon Red and Swiss Stop Yellow are favorites.
__________________
It's like riding a bicycle
It's like riding a bicycle
#5
Senior Member
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 5,954
Bikes: Colnago, Van Dessel, Factor, Cervelo, Ritchey
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3956 Post(s)
Liked 7,308 Times
in
2,949 Posts
Likes For tomato coupe:
#6
Senior Member
Likes For popeye:
#7
Thread Killer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,448
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3148 Post(s)
Liked 1,714 Times
in
1,034 Posts
I was worried about this too, but my carbon fiber Lun Hyper wheels brake just fine with ths supplied pads, and they suggested Swiss Stop Black Prince when the time comes for replacements.
For reference, I’m 240lbs using Campagnolo Chorus sidepulls, and the braking power has been impressive, down hills and through rain. Honestly, I don’t notice a tremendous difference compared to aluminum rims, except for a little less aggressive initial bite.
I haven’t crit raced these, but I did alu rims and cannot think of any time during my two year crit racing “career” that I thought about my brake performance, so I think the CF rims will do just fine, too.
I’m not saying I’d drop down a moutainside on my CF wheels, but heading down a .5mi 6% decline in the rain is something I’ve done without issue and will do again, so it depends on how you ride. One can heat heat up the resin to its glass transition point, and that’s not good, but up until that point, they will work fine. I cannot say when you’ll hit that point, but for me as a heavy rider in rolling and moderately hilly terrain, it seems not to be an issue.
For reference, I’m 240lbs using Campagnolo Chorus sidepulls, and the braking power has been impressive, down hills and through rain. Honestly, I don’t notice a tremendous difference compared to aluminum rims, except for a little less aggressive initial bite.
I haven’t crit raced these, but I did alu rims and cannot think of any time during my two year crit racing “career” that I thought about my brake performance, so I think the CF rims will do just fine, too.
I’m not saying I’d drop down a moutainside on my CF wheels, but heading down a .5mi 6% decline in the rain is something I’ve done without issue and will do again, so it depends on how you ride. One can heat heat up the resin to its glass transition point, and that’s not good, but up until that point, they will work fine. I cannot say when you’ll hit that point, but for me as a heavy rider in rolling and moderately hilly terrain, it seems not to be an issue.
#8
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 3,692
Bikes: Too many bikes, too little time to ride
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 432 Post(s)
Liked 460 Times
in
318 Posts
Just use the right pads, it seems like it shouldn't work but it works fine. Not the best design given the materials but carbon rim brake surfaces have come a long way over the past decade. I admit I do compensate my braking behavior riding down steep, prolonged descents, but I don't ride in wet conditions and so far have not had any issues with carbon rim brakes. Some pads work better than others. I've not tried them all but I like Reynolds Blue pads over the cheap cork ones.
#9
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Great White North
Posts: 926
Bikes: I have a few
Mentioned: 6 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 340 Post(s)
Liked 210 Times
in
104 Posts
I used a couple different types before I tried Bontrager branded cork pads on my HED wheels. By far these were the best in dry but never tested in wet conditions. I used them as well on my Bora wheels and they don't seem to be as good for some reason. Both are full carbon wheels and both dual pivot campy calipers.
#10
Full Member
Hey all. I invite your thoughts on using carbon wheels with rim brakes. I have been on an endeavor to build a new CRIT bike and posted lots of queries here. But alas, I just had a huge financial burden unexpectedly hit me and need to put the project off. BUT, I already have a pretty nice aluminum frame in the form of an older "Motobecane" (Bike Direct) 7005 aluminum frame "Record" model. I took it out this weekend and was really surprised at how stiff it is and how well it accelerates. I have a set of cheap "SuperTeam" carbon wheels on it. Not too light for carbon, but surprisingly stiff. I used the bike to just speed around the neighborhood. But I'm advised that using rim brake on direct carbon wheels is a no-no. The wheels are total carbon, so the brakes apply directly to a carbon surface. I saw a video from a carbon frame expert wherein he opines that the rim brake will wear at the carbon quickly and make it unsafe at some point, maybe when I'm not expecting a failure. The bike breaks just fine for my basic needs, but maybe not for repeated applications when going fast. But what are your thoughts on this topic? Any suggestions? Thanks!
#11
Thread Killer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,448
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3148 Post(s)
Liked 1,714 Times
in
1,034 Posts
I think if you are building a crit bike especially with parts you already have using carbon rim wheels is fine. Ideally a carbon rim wheel make zero sense IMO since literally you are degrading the carbon tracks and run the chance of delamination, thus wheels becomes disposables like chains or cassettes. For crits, rim brakes matter but not as much as descending, so yeah I think you are fine
#12
Full Member
#13
Method to My Madness
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 3,664
Bikes: Trek FX 2, Cannondale Synapse, Cannondale CAAD4, Santa Cruz Stigmata GRX
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1948 Post(s)
Liked 1,472 Times
in
1,020 Posts
In my experience with (Shimano 105 BR-5800) rim brakes in the dry, SwissStop Black Prince on (high TG) CF wheels stop about just as well as Shimano R55C4 on aluminum wheels, but the former squeals much more loudly.
Likes For SoSmellyAir:
#14
Thread Killer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,448
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3148 Post(s)
Liked 1,714 Times
in
1,034 Posts
worn aluminum brake track blowout
I have aluminum rims with brake track wear indicators, and I take them seriously.
#15
Full Member
What are the comparative wear rates? I cannot recall of hearing of a carbon rim failing from wearing away of sidewall material, but it's certain that if an aluminum sidewall fails, particularly on the front wheel, it could definitely be catastrophic:
worn aluminum brake track blowout
I have aluminum rims with brake track wear indicators, and I take them seriously.
worn aluminum brake track blowout
I have aluminum rims with brake track wear indicators, and I take them seriously.
#16
Full Member
I have heard and seen plenty of carbon rim wheel delaminating, no they didn't catastrophically implode but at that point they needed to be repaired or binned. I also see a huge amount of carbon rim wheels where the brake track material wear down to the point where it come smooth, thus brake efficiency was crap and in wet conditions it simply was to dangerous to ride
btw this photo is of a tube exploding on a rim brake wheel. The big difference is that even with overuse the rim stayed in tact even though there was a blowout, but with a carbon rim that's overused and starts to delaminate the whole wheel would come apart in an even more catastrophic way. Secondly while that wheel was badly worn it still probably and more stopping power than a carbon rim wheel with worn brake tracks, since carbon wheel with no brake tracks is like trying to stop on ice
https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/q...e-blew-the-rim
#17
Should Be More Popular
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Malvern, PA (20 miles West of Philly)
Posts: 43,059
Bikes: 1986 Alpine (steel road bike), 2009 Ti Habenero, 2013 Specialized Roubaix
Mentioned: 560 Post(s)
Tagged: 2 Thread(s)
Quoted: 22600 Post(s)
Liked 8,928 Times
in
4,160 Posts
I have zero evidence, however. But hey, this is BF so we can say what we think. Right?
Likes For datlas:
#18
Thread Killer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,448
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3148 Post(s)
Liked 1,714 Times
in
1,034 Posts
I have heard and seen plenty of carbon rim wheel delaminating, no they didn't catastrophically implode but at that point they needed to be repaired or binned. I also see a huge amount of carbon rim wheels where the brake track material wear down to the point where it come smooth, thus brake efficiency was crap and in wet conditions it simply was to dangerous to ride
I also don't understand how CF brake track wear would become smooth; I'd expect that as the resin wears through, the fibers become exposed and the surface rougher. The fiber matrix is simply more coarse by its very nature than the uniformly textured (i.e. smooth) resin which is injected to keep it all together and rigid.
#19
Thread Killer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,448
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3148 Post(s)
Liked 1,714 Times
in
1,034 Posts
btw this photo is of a tube exploding on a rim brake wheel. The big difference is that even with overuse the rim stayed in tact even though there was a blowout, but with a carbon rim that's overused and starts to delaminate the whole wheel would come apart in an even more catastrophic way. Secondly while that wheel was badly worn it still probably and more stopping power than a carbon rim wheel with worn brake tracks, since carbon wheel with no brake tracks is like trying to stop on ice
https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/q...e-blew-the-rim
https://bicycles.stackexchange.com/q...e-blew-the-rim
#20
Full Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jun 2022
Posts: 209
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 155 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 26 Times
in
22 Posts
Thanks for all the info. I think I'm going to keep the carbon wheels with rim brakes and just get some Kool Stop pads that are geared toward carbon.
Likes For ArgoMan:
#21
Method to My Madness
Join Date: Nov 2020
Location: Orange County, California
Posts: 3,664
Bikes: Trek FX 2, Cannondale Synapse, Cannondale CAAD4, Santa Cruz Stigmata GRX
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1948 Post(s)
Liked 1,472 Times
in
1,020 Posts
I also don't understand how CF brake track wear would become smooth; I'd expect that as the resin wears through, the fibers become exposed and the surface rougher. The fiber matrix is simply more coarse by its very nature than the uniformly textured (i.e. smooth) resin which is injected to keep it all together and rigid.
#23
Advocatus Diaboli
Join Date: Feb 2015
Location: Wherever I am
Posts: 8,641
Bikes: Merlin Cyrene, Nashbar steel CX
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4737 Post(s)
Liked 1,533 Times
in
1,004 Posts
https://www.swissstop.com/about-swis...carbon-wheels/
#24
Thread Killer
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Ann Arbor, MI
Posts: 12,448
Bikes: 15 Kinesis Racelight 4S, 76 Motebecane Gran Jubilée, 17 Dedacciai Gladiatore2, 12 Breezer Venturi, 09 Dahon Mariner, 12 Mercier Nano, 95 DeKerf Team SL, 19 Tern Rally, 21 Breezer Doppler Cafe+, 19 T-Lab X3, 91 Serotta CII, 23 3T Strada
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3148 Post(s)
Liked 1,714 Times
in
1,034 Posts
I am a late adopter to rim brake CF wheels, having bought my first CF wheelset only 15 months ago. From what I have read, brake track delamination is much less of an issue nowadays with the advent of high glass transition temperature (Tg) resin and brake shoe materials developed specifically for CF wheels. On some CF wheels, the brake track is also textured by either (1) laser etching the resin off to expose the underlying carbon fibers (Mavic) or (2) adding particles, e.g., basalt, graphene, etc. In the former, one might expect the brake track to remain coarse with wear, but not in the latter.
#25
beeballman
I purchased Roval CL50 carbon rim brake wheels almost three years ago. I use the recommended brake pads - Swiss Stop Black Prince - In the three years I have had them I have had zero issues with them, and the brake track still looks as good as new. Now I am very obsessed with also wiping the bike and wheels down after almost every ride to check the rims. These wheels were worth the money and have been awesome with zero issues.