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Igh touring bike

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Igh touring bike

Old 10-13-15, 02:55 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by baldilocks View Post
Does anyone use a internal gear hub for touring? Especially a Shimano Nexus 8 speed. I found one I would consider, but normally I prefer a mountain bike. Give me your best reasons for or against them, and thanks in advance.
What does using a Nexus 8 have to do with your preference for a mountain bike? Do you mean that you have access to a bike that has a Nexus 8, but that the bike is not a mountain bike?

Personally I think the bike you are comfortable riding should come before a choice of gearing systems. You can change gearing systems to suit your needs/wants.

I've done light touring on IGH bikes. Mostly Nuvinci hubs. I had issues, but never while on tour. For the last few months, I've been riding on an Alfine 8, which should be pretty similar to the Nexus 8. So far no issues with the hub. I haven't put a ton of miles on it yet, mainly commuting home from work. But I just returned from a weekend camping trip, loaded down with gear, and the hub did fine. It doesn't have the range of most touring set ups. So far I've found the range adequate, though. Commuting daily, I seldom have need of 1st gear or 8th gear. Even riding with the bike loaded down, I was surprised that I occasionally crept up towards 8. So if I were a stronger rider, I could see where a higher top end would be nice. Likewise when fully loaded, I dipped down to 1st gear a few times. I never felt like I needed to go lower, but by the time I get to 1st gear, I'm usually moving so slowly that the next step is walking. Nothing super-steep, though, in my area, so it worked fine. My one issue was that on the way out, 3rd gear started slipping. I avoided 3rd gear until I got to the campground, then I checked the adjustment and found it was slightly off. Fixed it, and it was fine for the rest of the weekend and all of the way home.

I prefer an IGH. I like the shifting better. I think it's quieter. I like that less of my drivetrain is adversely affected by the weather. Cleaner drive-train as well, as in not as many parts hanging off your drive train to get hung up on stuff.

With some IGHs, I find the rear wheel more difficult to remove/install than a derrailer wheel. The Alfine 8 is pretty straightforward, though, and I think it might even be easier than a derrailer wheel. For me at least. I'm always getting something tangled when trying to make sure pulleys of the derrailer are at the right position in relation to the gear cluster. Maybe just me, though.

For touring, I think the repair issue is legitimate. If something goes wrong with the hub, the fix could be difficult, expensive, and/or time consuming. On the other hand, that's not a problem that is limited to IGHs. Anything can break, and some things are easier to fix than others. My trips are usually short and have a fixed end destination and time, meaning that any major mechanical issue can kill the trip. So far only one trip has had to be cut short because of mechanical failure, and that wasn't because of a bad IGH, but rather a bad installation job. It could be, and was, easily fixed, but the fix took time I didn't have, so the trip was scrapped.

Currently I have plans to build up a 2nd wheelset with the same model hub, so that I can easily swap them out. The second wheelset will take differently sized tires, but they should both work with the same bike, so a broken hub would only stop a trip long enough for someone to send me my spare wheels. I figure a wheel can fail in more ways than just the drivetrain, so having a spare available might make sense even without an IGH.

I like my gear hubs, and I'll have to experience some major inconveniences before I'm willing to go back to derrailer system.
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Old 10-13-15, 03:34 PM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by mdilthey View Post
Coincidentally ran into this an hour later...


I am not sure which one that is. Rodriguez makes a similar one, I asked the price and was shocked at what they charge.

I considered using a Thorn Accessory bar and cutting the T part off to turn it into an I so it would be about the same as the one you cite, bought the bar, but then decided to try something else.

I am using the 55mm Thorn Accessory bar to attach my handlebar bag, then attached a cut down mountain bike bar end to the Accessory bar and put the shifter on the cut off bar end. A lot of people use that Thorn Accessory bar for the shifter (currently option 8 at link below) but I like to use interrupter brake levers and they conflict with putting the shifter on the Accessory bar in that location.

More options here: 22 Ways to Run Rohloff Shifters with Road Drop Handlebars | CyclingAbout

My setup:

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Old 10-13-15, 03:51 PM
  #53  
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This is the wrong forum/website to learn much about Rohloff Speedhub. Go here for an IGH dedicated thread with much, much more Speedhub information:

http://forums.mtbr.com/internal-gear-hubs/
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Old 10-13-15, 06:25 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by mdilthey View Post
Earlier in this thread there's talk of the IGH failing when people ran cogs that weren't to manufacturer's spec. Aftermarket shifters sound like an added variable, Anyone using them in extreme conditions?
Really, the whole bike market is "aftermarket" parts, at least in the sense that there aren't any Rohloff bikes, or Shimano come to that. Everything is a gumbo, and yes there are plenty of Thorns, say, with drop bar morphs for shifting. Actually, I think Rohloff needs more not less aftermarket. The inside of the hub is the only part built like a Rolex, if that. Every other part is pretty crappy. Phil shells, and billet aftermarket shifters are needed if anything.
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Old 10-13-15, 06:52 PM
  #55  
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15 Reasons to Tour with a Rohloff Hub | CyclingAbout


This already posted?
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Old 10-13-15, 10:26 PM
  #56  
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Efficiency study table can be seen here.

www.DutchBikeBits.com: The stealth "near-fixie". An efficient bicycle for everyday use

This measure of efficiency is not gear ratio but actual energy transferred from crank to road. Single speed is most efficient, Rohloff and derailleur are the same (within variability across gears). Worst is Nuvinci and then Alfine 11 at low energy. The range of efficiency ranges from 78% (Nuvinci) to 97% (single speed).

A common advantage claimed for Rohloffs is reliability. Back in 2009 I search the net for reports of Rohloff failures. You can read about those here. I suspect the failure rate is higher than most believe, but probably not high enough to worry about. I would not use Rohloff on extensive tours in remote areas because the derailleur system, as previously noted, can be serviced at so many locations.

http://www.bikeforums.net/touring/51...ml#post8409218
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Old 10-13-15, 10:32 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by MassiveD View Post
Really, the whole bike market is "aftermarket" parts, at least in the sense that there aren't any Rohloff bikes, or Shimano come to that. Everything is a gumbo, and yes there are plenty of Thorns, say, with drop bar morphs for shifting. Actually, I think Rohloff needs more not less aftermarket. The inside of the hub is the only part built like a Rolex, if that. Every other part is pretty crappy. Phil shells, and billet aftermarket shifters are needed if anything.
I'd like to see Campagnolo make some nice Rohloff brifters. Many of the drop-bar shifters require moving a hand off the bar entirely or else moving hand to the center etc. Seems kinda absurd to pay $1K for an IGH & suffer a penalty in ease/control. Actually, in future, Rohloff or other IGHs w/large # of gears might be ideal for electronic shifting. Voice-control would be an easy addition to that; consideration of hand position obviated; just say "Shift-N"!
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Old 10-14-15, 05:22 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by niknak View Post
Belt drive systems have been out for several years and yet they haven't caught on. For instance, I don't believe Specialized has a single 2015/16 model with a belt drive. They had some bikes in 2013, but those models have been discontinued. If there were money in it, you know one of the big boys like Specialized would be all over it.

Disc brakes are popular because mountain biking is popular. Mountain biking is associated with bros and beer and weed and having fun. IGH belt drive bikes are associated with engineers commuting to their desk jobs.

It seems like the production touring market is all about making a bike the best value. That's why the LHT is so popular. It uses standard, inexpensive, dependable parts that get the job done. Adding things like an IGH and a belt drive aren't perceived as a good value. You pay more upfront for little if any advantage.
Specialized Source Eleven Disc
Source AWOL Expert frameset (if you want to have a frame that can take derailleurs, belts and pretty much any IGH)

And then there was the Specialized Edition AWOL Transcontinental. A 8-speed IGH belt driven bike.

And this is just Specialized. I have been looking for a bike like this and especially Germany has plenty of big brands that offer models with Shimano 8 & 11 speed or affordable Rohloff bikes.

Then again I live next to Germany and I hate derailleurs with a passion.
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Old 10-14-15, 08:20 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by DropBarFan View Post
I'd like to see Campagnolo make some nice Rohloff brifters. Many of the drop-bar shifters require moving a hand off the bar entirely or else moving hand to the center etc. Seems kinda absurd to pay $1K for an IGH & suffer a penalty in ease/control. Actually, in future, Rohloff or other IGHs w/large # of gears might be ideal for electronic shifting. Voice-control would be an easy addition to that; consideration of hand position obviated; just say "Shift-N"!
In post 52 above I gave a link, repeated here: 22 Ways to Run Rohloff Shifters with Road Drop Handlebars | CyclingAbout Currently number 7 is an electronic shifter, but it looks big and clunky.

One problem with trying to use any non-Rohloff shifter on a Rohloff is that the indexing for the Rohloff is inside the hub. Thus the shifting cables are slack at all times except when you want to shift. But all other shifting methods rely on the indexing method to be in the shifter. If you wait a couple more years for a 14 speed cassette to be made by one of the derailleur firms, their 14 speed brifter will not function on a Rohloff because the two indexing systems would likely fight with each other.

An ideal system would be to use a paddle type shifter like the Cinq5, but mount it near the brake levers like the Kelly Takeoff shift mounts.

Kelly Bike Company

Then you are riding on the hoods you could just push a lever with a thumb to upshift and the other thumb to downshift.
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Old 10-14-15, 09:14 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by JaccoW View Post
Specialized Source Eleven Disc
Source AWOL Expert frameset (if you want to have a frame that can take derailleurs, belts and pretty much any IGH)

And then there was the Specialized Edition AWOL Transcontinental. A 8-speed IGH belt driven bike.

And this is just Specialized. I have been looking for a bike like this and especially Germany has plenty of big brands that offer models with Shimano 8 & 11 speed or affordable Rohloff bikes.

Then again I live next to Germany and I hate derailleurs with a passion.
I'm sorry that I didn't frame my statements in the context of the US market. The Specialized Source is not available in the US. The AWOL Transcontinental is no longer produced. That leaves the AWOL frameset, which has the capability for an IGH, but I'm willing to bet a very tiny percentage of people who buy this frameset in the US are building it up with an IGH.

Perhaps belt driven IGH systems are more popular in Europe. It would make sense, since it seems that flat bars are more commonly found on touring bikes over there. In the US, drop bar touring bikes are most popular. There are some solutions to mount IGH shifters on drop bars, but most of them are poorly executed. I still stand by my statement that belt driven IGH bikes have had every opportunity to become popular in the US market over the last several years, but not enough people are buying them.
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Old 10-14-15, 09:39 AM
  #61  
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The Rohbox I linked to in 42nd post seems to be able to be used with a number of Brifters ,

but , as I interpret It, the cables each go to one lever on either side, and you have a re-centering spring in the box..

so the lever turns the rotary shifter between them around , 1 pulls 1 way, the other pulls Back.

http://www.rohbox.com/Rohbox%20Techn...oxAssembly.pdf..

maybe the kelly take off and retro spring friction levers will balance out to be easily shifted from the hoods ,.

which is why I presume you want it to be brifter compatible .

there was a Brifter for Shimano 8 & 11 speed hubs , but the UK company that got them made

One may think, decided the sales were not adequate so did not re order another Batch.

You may want to see if you can get crowd funding to buy that contract and have another batch made

They probably went to the usual sources in Taiwan.

Jtek is now owned by SJS Cycles in UK. http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/jtek-engi...ering/?geoc=us

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Old 10-14-15, 09:58 AM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
The Rohbox I linked to in 42nd post seems to be able to be used with a number of Brifters ,

but , as I interpret It, the cables each go to one lever on either side, and you have a re-centering spring in the box..

so the lever turns the rotary shifter between them around , 1 pulls 1 way, the other pulls Back.

http://www.rohbox.com/Rohbox%20Techn...oxAssembly.pdf..

maybe the kelly take off and retro spring friction levers will balance out to be easily shifted from the hoods ,.

...
That thing is pretty neat. If it cost a fifth of what they are charging, I would consider trying to set up a bike with something like the Kelly Take Offs and this thing. It would be nice to be able to shift from the hoods.

Thanks for posting.
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Old 10-14-15, 10:01 AM
  #63  
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German Made stuff reflects what they get paid to make it .
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Old 10-14-15, 10:06 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by niknak View Post
I'm sorry that I didn't frame my statements in the context of the US market. The Specialized Source is not available in the US. The AWOL Transcontinental is no longer produced. That leaves the AWOL frameset, which has the capability for an IGH, but I'm willing to bet a very tiny percentage of people who buy this frameset in the US are building it up with an IGH.

Perhaps belt driven IGH systems are more popular in Europe. It would make sense, since it seems that flat bars are more commonly found on touring bikes over there. In the US, drop bar touring bikes are most popular. There are some solutions to mount IGH shifters on drop bars, but most of them are poorly executed. I still stand by my statement that belt driven IGH bikes have had every opportunity to become popular in the US market over the last several years, but not enough people are buying them.
No need to be sorry, I could have checked the US site to see that some of those are indeed not available in the US.

I guess it's really down to market demand. In most parts of Europe bikes are seen more as a form of transportation while in the US it is still seen as a recreational activity that requires a fast bike and lycra.

That's also the reason why over 80% of the bikes in Holland (I'm guessing, could be more) and something like 50% in Germany are using an IGH whereas in the US this number is probably more around 5-10%.

Belts however are still quite rare and mostly used on bikes in the higher price ranges.
- Santos makes many bikes with a Rohloff and a belt.
- IDworx
- Bergamont has bikes with Alfine 11 and a belt.

Using a belt is not a simple drop in but requires a specialized rear triangle that is extra stiff. Not all manufacturers are capable of that.
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Old 10-14-15, 10:39 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by baldilocks View Post
Does anyone use a internal gear hub for touring? Especially a Shimano Nexus 8 speed. I found one I would consider, but normally I prefer a mountain bike. Give me your best reasons for or against them, and thanks in advance.
I've been touring on IGH bikes since 2008. I've used a couple Rohloffs, a couple Alfine 8s and an Alfine 11.



^^^ this is my current touring bike sporting a Rohloff IGH.

The main reasons to use an IGH are:

- immune to weather as they'll as well covered in mud as they do sparkly clean
- hard to damage vs a dérailleur with no delicate bits hanging down where they can be ripped off
- shift while coasting or at a stop

The downsides are:

- increased weight
- increased cost [Rohloff]
- if you do need parts/service they are not ubiquitous

I wouldn't go so far as to say I would not tour unless it was an IGH bike, but I certainly see an IGH as a smart choice for a lot of touring missions.
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Old 10-14-15, 09:06 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by JaccoW View Post
And this is just Specialized. I have been looking for a bike like this and especially Germany has plenty of big brands that offer models with Shimano 8 & 11 speed or affordable Rohloff bikes.

Then again I live next to Germany and I hate derailleurs with a passion.
How affordable are German Rohloff bikes? Aren't they => 2,500 $/€? & with belt even more?
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Old 10-15-15, 08:05 AM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by DropBarFan View Post
How affordable are German Rohloff bikes? Aren't they => 2,500 $/€? & with belt even more?

Bergamont - €2200.
I believe the cheapest I've seen anywhere was something like €1700. I'll try looking for it tomorrow..
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Old 10-15-15, 08:15 AM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by DropBarFan View Post
How affordable are German Rohloff bikes? Aren't they => 2,500 $/€? & with belt even more?
I think that would be on the low end. I bought my Rohloff hub for a bit over $1k (USD) shipped from Germany. A good bike will be in the range of $1k to $1,500 these days, so figure a good bike cost plus the cost of the Rohloff, plus maybe a bit more for labor. Maybe add 10 or 11 percent for duty when it comes thru customs from Europe.

A frame built for a Rohloff will have either dropouts that move or a bottom bracket eccentric for chain adjustment. That adds a bit to the cost of manufacture. Also the rear left side dropout and stays have to be robust enough to take the torque, so it can't be a cheaply built frame.
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Old 10-15-15, 08:25 AM
  #69  
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FWIW, found a Used 04 Koga-Miyata WTR , seller shipped it to my door for $2K.. in 08.

NC > OR
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Old 10-15-15, 08:30 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by JaccoW View Post
Bergamont - €2200.
I believe the cheapest I've seen anywhere was something like €1700. I'll try looking for it tomorrow..

Bergamont Vitess R14 looks very nice & a pretty great value too: alu frame, dyno hub & lights, even Hebie Chainglider!
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Old 10-15-15, 08:51 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
FWIW, found a Used 04 Koga-Miyata WTR , seller shipped it to my door for $2K.. in 08.

NC > OR
German bike makers seem much more willing to use aluminum for frames which makes sense to me. Both Koga World Traveller & Bergamont Vitess use alu frames not to mention hydraulic brakes. I reckon that converting to drop-bar would not be too difficult; OTOH how well do these frames work w/fat tires ie 40-50 mm width?
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Old 10-15-15, 10:42 PM
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Swapping a drop bar onto a frame designed for flat bar usually doesn't work well - reach too long even with short stem. Swapping controls is expensive, and there are incompatibilities between road and MTB components. It's just a bad idea.
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Old 10-16-15, 12:36 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by DropBarFan View Post
Bergamont Vitess R14 looks very nice & a pretty great value too: alu frame, dyno hub & lights, even Hebie Chainglider!
Not a fan of the Hebie Chainglider but other than that it does look like a great bike. 37mm tires with fenders so my guess is that it would take wider tires if you remove them.
Originally Posted by DropBarFan View Post
German bike makers seem much more willing to use aluminum for frames which makes sense to me. Both Koga World Traveller & Bergamont Vitess use alu frames not to mention hydraulic brakes. I reckon that converting to drop-bar would not be too difficult; OTOH how well do these frames work w/fat tires ie 40-50 mm width?
What do American frame builders do?

Most people will use these bikes as their daily commuter as well as for touring. When using them both during summer as well as winter, aluminum just makes more sense. Steel is for custom built summer tourers. I don't think I've seen that many modern steel bikes from the bigger companies here.

If you want a faster road tourer that looks very slick:
Schindelhauer Ludwig XIV.

Throw on some fenders and a front rack and you get an extremely stylish porteur style tourer.

Oh and if you want a Rohloff with drop bars you can either use Gilles Berthoud shifter or Van Nicholas divisible handlebar.

Last edited by JaccoW; 10-16-15 at 02:38 AM.
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Old 10-16-15, 08:04 AM
  #74  
fietsbob 
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how well do these frames work w/fat tires ie 40-50 mm width?
Mine came from OEM, Koga, with 559-47 tires , Koga is NL not DE.
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Old 10-16-15, 10:04 AM
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Originally Posted by seeker333 View Post
Swapping a drop bar onto a frame designed for flat bar usually doesn't work well - reach too long even with short stem. Swapping controls is expensive, and there are incompatibilities between road and MTB components. It's just a bad idea.
Yet, thousands do it without issue and several companies design MTB's with drop bars in the first place... Salsa, for one.
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