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Vintage Carlton track frame help

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Vintage Carlton track frame help

Old 06-09-18, 05:46 PM
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Senrab62
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Vintage Carlton track frame help





Sorry for the double post. This is also in the fixed gear forum. Any help would be appreciated.

Serial number is: F2662 To my eyes anyway.

Check this out. I scored a frameset in my size. I've been looking for a lugged track frame in my size FOREVER and was about to settle for a Murphy cycles Marty frameset (they are great looking, not settling really IMHO) when this beauty came up locally.

No known year yet, but great overall. Campag headset. Some unknown BB for now. 531 butted tubing. It does have patina but I like it.

Does anyone have any knowledge of vintage track bikes? Coolest thing to me is the braze on fender eyelets on front and rear. No idea on full build yet but already started ordering parts I don't need LOL. Any ideas or suggestions?
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Old 06-09-18, 06:41 PM
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Thats old. Fender eyelets. Very English. Track, grass track, Time Trial bike. Back in the day when you would train in perhaps a 67inch gear with mudgaurds on during the week. Race a 72inch gear for grass track. Put a 88inch gear for sprints at the velodrome. And do a 100 mile TT in a 82inch fixed.

You have a gem there. Outfit it with care. Visit classiclightweights.co.uk for knowledge and hilarystone.com for parts.
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Old 06-09-18, 06:41 PM
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Great grab. Spotted this one and tipped to a few others here. For year I would search the Headbadge and Hilary Stone / UK. I'm curious if its a five digit serial and not four.

Pull the headset and save for another. I could dream of many ways to build this one.
cheers!
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Old 06-09-18, 07:04 PM
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Thanks all. I saw it and the size and pounced. I stretched the budget a bit, but couldn't wait.

Serial # is listed in the original post. I will check out headbadge and hillarH Stone now. Trying to document as well as I can.

Why save the Campag headset? I was planning to use it!

Any modern vintage style high flange fixed fixed wheelsets floating around?

Also the brake reach is absurd. Short like in the 37mm range. I'm beefy and on a single brake set up I'd like to use a dual pivot. Any ideas?
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Old 06-09-18, 07:28 PM
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The headset looks so wrong for that era frame. Good piece but would save for another project.

Short brake reach indeed. Will be fun finding something to work. Have a similar situation on a Witcomb.
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Old 06-09-18, 07:52 PM
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Originally Posted by Senrab62 View Post
Also the brake reach is absurd. Short like in the 37mm range. I'm beefy and on a single brake set up I'd like to use a dual pivot. Any ideas?
You won't need dual pivot. Super short reach brakes are really efficient by nature. PM if you want a decent Weinmann brake that works on a track fork.
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Old 06-09-18, 08:01 PM
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now that is nice
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Old 06-09-18, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Senrab62 View Post
Coolest thing to me is the braze on fender eyelets on front and rear.
It was common for British riders to have only one bike, which they'd use for commuting and errands and then remove the mudguards and brakes for track races.

Automobiles were not common in England for many years after WWII. E.g. my aunt and uncle in Falmouth didn't get their first car until the mid 60s, and my grandfather in Paignton Devon never owned an automobile.

Last edited by JohnDThompson; 06-09-18 at 08:23 PM.
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Old 06-09-18, 08:43 PM
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Johndthompson - thanks. I have read about that. And the decline in cycling for the UK was based on the increased middle class and the desire to use cars for transportation and support of the highway infrastructure.

Pulled everything apart, degreased and relubed headset. Crank order pending. Any wheelset suggestions?
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Old 06-09-18, 08:58 PM
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You beat me to it.
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My bikes: 1970`s Roberts - 1981 Miyata 912 - 1980`s Ocshner (Chrome) - 1987 Schwinn Circuit - 1987 Schwinn Prologue - 1992 Schwinn Crosspoint - 1999 Schwinn Circuit - 2014 Cannondale Super Six EVO
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Old 06-09-18, 09:03 PM
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Haha Steve. Couldn't pass it up. And this market is tough and bikes move fast. I'm in kenowhere (Kenosha) and have the benefit of being between Milwaukee and Chicago and close enough to Madison.

Thinning out the herd, so another bike is not ideal. Oh well. Thank God the girlfriend is patient!
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Old 06-09-18, 11:05 PM
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Originally Posted by JohnDThompson View Post
It was common for British riders to have only one bike, which they'd use for commuting and errands and then remove the mudguards and brakes for track races.
Automobiles were not common in England for many years after WWII. E.g. my aunt and uncle in Falmouth didn't get their first car until the mid 60s, and my grandfather in Paignton Devon never owned an automobile.
My Grandfather for example had a Marmon in the 1930s and an Austin Ascot during the war (that's WW2 1939-1945). My Father bought his first car in 1950, admittedly second hand - a Wolseley Wasp - from a doctor.

John.

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Old 06-09-18, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Senrab62 View Post
Johndthompson - thanks. I have read about that. And the decline in cycling for the UK was based on the increased middle class and the desire to use cars for transportation and support of the highway infrastructure.

Pulled everything apart, degreased and relubed headset. Crank order pending. Any wheelset suggestions?
The decline in cycling in Great Britain was not due to the increased middle class it was more due to the introduction of less costly motoring (you could argue the automobilisation of the working class) - the launch of the Mini in 1959 was the catalyst.

Apologies guys, but so many uninformed opinions !

John.
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Old 06-10-18, 08:42 AM
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My impression of OP's Carlton frame is early 1960's. Is there an oil port on the left side of the bottom bracket? Does the fork have a serial number that matches the frame serial number? Is there any reason to suspect the frame has been repainted?

Take a look here:

http://www.veterancycleclublibrary.org.uk/library/index.php?action=asearch&searchtext=C&tpage=9&items=16

You'll find a pretty complete collection of Carlton catalogs.

I'm pretty sure you have a "road /path" frame, basically track bike fittings in road bike geometry.

This being the C&V forum it is obligatory that I mention how great your bike would look with classic Campagno Record Pista hubs and crank, Brooks saddle, yada yada yada. And it's true, that would look great.

But realistically, as long as you stick to silver colored aluminum components, you won't go wrong.

Just yesterday I rode a similar frame (JRJ track frame from 1964) built up with mostly "period correct" components over a hilly 200 km route and it was pretty great.

Please keep us posted with your build, and if we criticise the choice of "modern"parts forgive is, we are C&V after all.

Last edited by rhm; 06-10-18 at 10:01 AM.
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Old 06-10-18, 08:59 AM
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Originally Posted by hobbs1951 View Post
The decline in cycling in Great Britain was not due to the increased middle class it was more due to the introduction of less costly motoring (you could argue the automobilisation of the working class) - the launch of the Mini in 1959 was the catalyst.

Apologies guys, but so many uninformed opinions !

John.
Avoid the taxes, buy a Morgan.

As to the frame, pretty sure it has been repainted. Probably a good chance remnants of the original color might be found in the seat tube, head tube, fork steerer or bottom bracket.
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Old 06-10-18, 11:12 AM
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Slow down. Think about what you have there. Think before spending money. With handcut rear dropouts that have fender eyelets that is certainly an old frame. At first glance the fork does not match. But maybe it does. This is old and everything was variable if not custom when this frame was built.

What doesn't match about the fork is that it is very short rake and very stout. A bike to be used with fenders, much less for grass track, just doesn't need that fork. But we really don't know. The main frame (certainly very old) has some stout seatstays, where most old stuff would use something lighter and more comfortable. Half a dozen reasons why it might have been built with stout stays and forks and we don't know. Was this built for a pure track sprinter? Some things can be known. One is you aren't using fenders if brake reach is honestly 37mm. Another is this bike is going to ride very harsh. You can bash around on it on public roads and have a grand time, you'd be a masochist to plan long rides on it.

So check the brake drop again. This bike would have been made for what the Brits called 'sprints', that is sewup tires. Same size as 700C clinchers. Were you measuring with a 27x1-1/4 rim? The most popular brake for bikes like this was by far the Weinmann 500. Minimum reach 40mm. If you measured with 27x1-1/4 and measured right then the correct measure for sprints is 41mm. Clubman above made you a very generous offer and you would do well to accept it. It is one strong brake. The fixed wheel is itself a second brake. There is no crime in drilling the rear bridge and having a third brake.

On the other thread you mentioned a new production Campy crank and a Soma handlebar. Well, like Rudy says if it is all silver it will look OK. And the Brits themselves commit such acts on old frames all the time. But why? For the cost of a set of new Campag cranks and a new handlebar you could kit out the whole bike in vintage. A vintage bike rides like a vintage bike. A Frankenstein bike rides like a Frankenstein bike. You have one great vintage frame there.

One place you might want to spend real money is tires. Get the softest ride possible with that fork. You can use tubulars and be guaranteed a plush ride. Clinchers maybe try Compass EL or Vittoria Corsa G+ Isotech. If not using fenders measure carefully the biggest tire you can get under that fork crown.

From a great distance on a computer monitor that looks like an older repaint in real British stove enamel. I'd keep it but find some nicer stickers.
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Old 06-10-18, 11:20 AM
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Slow down. Think about what you have there. Think before spending money. With handcut rear dropouts that have fender eyelets that is certainly an old frame. At first glance the fork does not match. But maybe it does. This is old and everything was variable if not custom when this frame was built.

What doesn't match about the fork is that it is very short rake and very stout. A bike to be used with fenders, much less for grass track, just doesn't need that fork. But we really don't know. The main frame (certainly very old) has some stout seatstays, where most old stuff would use something lighter and more comfortable. Half a dozen reasons why it might have been built with stout stays and forks and we don't know. Was this built for a pure track sprinter? Some things can be known. One is you aren't using fenders if brake reach is honestly 37mm. Another is this bike is going to ride very harsh. You can bash around on it on public roads and have a grand time, you'd be a masochist to plan long rides on it.

So check the brake drop again. This bike would have been made for what the Brits called 'sprints', that is sewup tires. Same size as 700C clinchers. Were you measuring with a 27x1-1/4 rim? The most popular brake for bikes like this was by far the Weinmann 500. Minimum reach 40mm. If you measured with 27x1-1/4 and measured right then the correct measure for sprints is 41mm. Clubman above made you a very generous offer and you would do well to accept it. It is one strong brake. The fixed wheel is itself a second brake. There is no crime in drilling the rear bridge and having a third brake.

On the other thread you mentioned a new production Campy crank and a Soma handlebar. Well, like Rudy says if it is all silver it will look OK. And the Brits themselves commit such acts on old frames all the time. But why? For the cost of a set of new Campag cranks and a new handlebar you could kit out the whole bike in vintage. A vintage bike rides like a vintage bike. A Frankenstein bike rides like a Frankenstein bike. You have one great vintage frame there.

One place you might want to spend real money is tires. Get the softest ride possible with that fork. You can use tubulars and be guaranteed a plush ride. Clinchers maybe try Compass EL or Vittoria Corsa G+ Isotech. If not using fenders measure carefully the biggest tire you can get under that fork crown.

From a great distance on a computer monitor that looks like an older repaint in real British stove enamel. I'd keep it but find some nicer stickers.
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Old 06-10-18, 11:40 AM
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
My impression of OP's Carlton frame is early 1960's. Is there an oil port on the left side of the bottom bracket? Does the fork have a serial number that matches the frame serial number? Is there any reason to suspect the frame has been repainted?

Take a look here:

http://www.veterancycleclublibrary.org.uk/library/index.php?action=asearch&searchtext=C&tpage=9&items=16

You'll find a pretty complete collection of Carlton catalogs.

I'm pretty sure you have a "road /path" frame, basically track bike fittings in road bike geometry.

This being the C&V forum it is obligatory that I mention how great your bike would look with classic Campagno Record Pista hubs and crank, Brooks saddle, yada yada yada. And it's true, that would look great.

But realistically, as long as you stick to silver colored aluminum components, you won't go wrong.

Just yesterday I rode a similar frame (JRJ track frame from 1964) built up with mostly "period correct" components over a hilly 200 km route and it was pretty great.

Please keep us posted with your build, and if we criticise the choice of "modern"parts forgive is, we are C&V after all.
I am going to try to keep it as period accurate as possible if I can within a reasonable cost. Crank and BB will be more modern for sure.

No original BB so I have no idea if there was an oil port or not unfortunately.

I did not see ANY serial on the fork that matches. To me, the paint/enamel looks original but I am by no means an expert. I have attached a pic of the fork.

Already have an old Brooks professional that is slated for this build. Any ideas of a vintage style 26.8 seatpost?

Thanks in advance and for all the input. Keep it coming!

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Old 06-10-18, 11:50 AM
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Also the Soma bar was more for eronomics. I will compromise on some aspects for period correctness (stem angle, bars possibly, and tires FOR SURE) to make the ride as pleasant as possible.

From my limited research the fork looks like the forks shown on the Carlton catalogue scans I was able to find.

I do not plan on using fenders on this. Does anyone know if this was meant for 700c or 27"? I'll take some measurements in a bit.

Also I am in no rush. Just a bit excited and looking forward to planning the build.

Does enamel polish similar to paint?
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Old 06-10-18, 11:51 AM
  #20  
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The oil port on the BB would be on the shell, that is the frame, not the bearings; you would have seen it by now if it were there, so I'll assume it's not. So the frame is very likely from the 1960's.

The fork serial number should be visible too, so I'll assume it's not there.

I'm not familiar with Carlton serial numbers, so I'm hoping someone else will comment on that.
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Old 06-10-18, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
I'm not familiar with Carlton serial numbers, so I'm hoping someone else will comment on that.
i could help, knowing ex Carlton employees. But hey ho I'm in England and what might we know ?

John

N.B ire ron ee
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Old 06-10-18, 12:35 PM
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Originally Posted by hobbs1951 View Post
i could help, knowing ex Carlton employees. But hey ho I'm in England and what might we know ?

John

N.B ire ron ee
aye, Ronny, why would you consult with experts when it's so much easier to just make up the answer you want? And what if the experts gave you an answer that conflicted with your preconceived notion of what's right? THEN where would we be ?
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Old 06-10-18, 12:38 PM
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Senrab62-

Looks like a 1957-58 Carlton road/path frameset. These were multi-purpose framesets used for grass track, velodrome, time trials and off season fixed gear training or commuting. It has the round blades of a track fork with the drilling for a single front brake (I believe the rear bridge is undrilled.) The decals shown are late 70s or 1980 in period so it's probable that the frameset has been repainted.I believe it is the Road Track model about half way down the catalogue page here. The decals from the 1957-58 period are much nicer. H. Lloyds in the UK has a very wide range and you can see them here. There is a Facebook page called Carlton Cycles of Worksop that deals with Carltons and you might want to join and post - there are a lot of knowledgeable enthusiasts there as well.Good luck with the resto.
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Old 06-10-18, 12:43 PM
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Originally Posted by rhm View Post
The oil port on the BB would be on the shell, that is the frame, not the bearings; you would have seen it by now if it were there, so I'll assume it's not. So the frame is very likely from the 1960's.

The fork serial number should be visible too, so I'll assume it's not there.

I'm not familiar with Carlton serial numbers, so I'm hoping someone else will comment on that.
No oil port on the BB shell. And no serial visible on the fork. The only thing I can see on the fork is in the attached picture. Is that an 8 or perhaps a cursive P??? I have no clue.

Also it could be a repaint/re-enamel job as there is a "glob" I discovered on the fork while looking for a serial #. But as I said before no experience with finishes on that level.


​​
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Old 06-10-18, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by bertinjim View Post
Senrab62-

Looks like a 1957-58 Carlton road/path frameset. These were multi-purpose framesets used for grass track, velodrome, time trials and off season fixed gear training or commuting. It has the round blades of a track fork with the drilling for a single front brake (I believe the rear bridge is undrilled.) The decals shown are late 70s or 1980 in period so it's probable that the frameset has been repainted.I believe it is the Road Track model about half way down the catalogue page here. The decals from the 1957-58 period are much nicer. H. Lloyds in the UK has a very wide range and you can see them here. There is a Facebook page called Carlton Cycles of Worksop that deals with Carltons and you might want to join and post - there are a lot of knowledgeable enthusiasts there as well.Good luck with the resto.
Thanks for the links! I too assumed it was a RT model based on the eyelets and fork.

The decals look MUCH better than the block Carlton decals. I'm going to do some research on what the original decal setup would have looked like.

Some things to note: rear dropouts/track ends or whatever you prefer to call them are extraordinary. Beefy and even after 50-60+ years they show little in the way or wear or neglect. Super beefy.

Frameset is very light for it's age in my opinion. No weight now but will ask my buddy to use his scale to get an accurate measurement. Chain and seat stays are pretty substantial as previously mentioned.

Ride quality was mentioned as being rough or uncomfortable, but the angles seem pretty laxed to me. The head tube is a little shorter than what I am accustomed to, but doubt the rear will be stiffer than a triple triangle track frame I ride regularly.

As I mentioned before, I genuinely appreciate the forum. Researching, reading, learning, admiring, and finding out about cycling is easy and fun due to this platform. You guys are the best.

I'm sure I don't want to know, but any idea on where or how much for enamel recoating? Might not be feasible, but I am trying to get an idea of how much I am looking at for full period correct vs getting it built well enough to ride expense.
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