Vintage Carlton track frame help
06-10-18, 01:34 PM
#26
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Senrab62-
Depends where you are, what you want and who you get. Velocolour in Toronto, 1 colour, frame and fork $800 C/ $675 US. A local frame builder in the Niagara Falls area $350 (2 years ago for a single colour F&F. A local body shop that does my car repairs $150 (2 years ago, F&F) Panels, candy colours etc and the sky is the limit.
Depends where you are, what you want and who you get. Velocolour in Toronto, 1 colour, frame and fork $800 C/ $675 US. A local frame builder in the Niagara Falls area $350 (2 years ago for a single colour F&F. A local body shop that does my car repairs $150 (2 years ago, F&F) Panels, candy colours etc and the sky is the limit.
06-10-18, 02:21 PM
#27
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Are the decals actual decals, or are they stickers that you could remove? If the latter, I'd definitely not think about repaint until you've done everything else, including riding the bike a few thousand miles.
Just making up numbers out of thin air, I'd guess a $500 repaint will increase the value of the frame by at most $50.
Just making up numbers out of thin air, I'd guess a $500 repaint will increase the value of the frame by at most $50.
06-10-18, 02:58 PM
#28
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If you really really want to paint this frame Mercian and Argos in UK still do genuine stove enamel. Mercian is quicker and shows prices on their site. Plus shipping of course. If it is as good as it looks in your photo I can't see the need.
Simplest way to get a 26.8 post is to use a straight post and a separate clamp. If you can't quickly turn up an old one Kalloy has straight posts in all sizes and darn few would be able to tell the difference. $10? Straight post and clamp is very period correct.
This is a hardcore racing frame most definitely for sprints/700C. Clinchers were pretty basic back then, slow and fat. If the brake clearance is even close to your first measurement 27x1-1/4 wouldn't even fit.
If the decals/stickers are the least bit hard to remove go at them with 1000 grit wet or dry, then smooth the paint with finer grit paper and buffing compound before you place the new ones.
Does Brown Deer Park still meet Tuesdays? Just go over there, talk to some old guys, post a flyer. Take the frame with you. Should get some interest.
Simplest way to get a 26.8 post is to use a straight post and a separate clamp. If you can't quickly turn up an old one Kalloy has straight posts in all sizes and darn few would be able to tell the difference. $10? Straight post and clamp is very period correct.
This is a hardcore racing frame most definitely for sprints/700C. Clinchers were pretty basic back then, slow and fat. If the brake clearance is even close to your first measurement 27x1-1/4 wouldn't even fit.
If the decals/stickers are the least bit hard to remove go at them with 1000 grit wet or dry, then smooth the paint with finer grit paper and buffing compound before you place the new ones.
Does Brown Deer Park still meet Tuesdays? Just go over there, talk to some old guys, post a flyer. Take the frame with you. Should get some interest.
06-10-18, 04:29 PM
#29
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The repaint is solid. Not great. But thick and pretty even. I am in no rush for a repaint. I have a schwinn Circuit pending powder right now. And yeah, I just want to ride it and get some miles in. I have a couple fixed gears currently, both conversions and frames with track ends.
Looking at wheel options. A gentlemanly forum member has a rear Brampton flip flop and nearly matching front campag for sale so I am looking at that to have built for a wheelset.
Also I did PM Clubman about the brake caliper. With 700 wheels the reach as measured is still in that 37-37.5 mm range.
Looking at wheel options. A gentlemanly forum member has a rear Brampton flip flop and nearly matching front campag for sale so I am looking at that to have built for a wheelset.
Also I did PM Clubman about the brake caliper. With 700 wheels the reach as measured is still in that 37-37.5 mm range.
06-10-18, 04:43 PM
#30
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Having a hard time sending image urls with PM's. Really dislike the media management in the new forum, oh well.
Here's the Weinmann 500. 37.5 is tight but there's wiggle room for a little slot filing too.
Here's the Weinmann 500. 37.5 is tight but there's wiggle room for a little slot filing too.
06-14-18, 01:32 PM
#32
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Update time! Thanks all again. appreciate the info and offers and encouragement. I do have some items to discuss, and some questions.
- I do not use FB at all. For many reasons, all personal. A shame, because it CAN be used as a great resource for many things, bike related and otherwise. Unfortunately I cannot seek the expertise of the FB group which sounds like it would be a fantastic, but is not meant to be.
- I DO NOT, plan to have it refinished, or anything at this point, if ever. At most, if I can do so easily enough, I will look at having the block Carlton decals removed, and replace them with something more period accurate. Was just curious. Frame has been treated w/framsaver already
- Does anyone know what I would be looking at for weight on this built w/period correct parts? I am no weight weenie, but trying to figure out how to save as much weight as possible. I mentioned 25 lbs period correct as an estimation. I have no reason to believe it will be less, do you?
- I am still tempted for a VO wheelset. I have vintage hubs lined up, but the appeal of a new, sealed hub wheelset that I do not have to worry about as much for day to day use is appealing, and using the period correct stuff for when I want to be flashier. I think they look period style close enough-ish to me.
- I have been looking into older cranks. I have no desire for cottered at all. Does anyone know the durability of the 50.4 type cranks? I am no watt machine, but am pretty strong and plenty fat. Don't want to be shearing crank arms with my Pegasus thighs. any suggestions for long term? I have a replica type on the way for the meanwhile.
- headset. current campy is not direct fit for frame (anyone interested in it?). does anyone know what would be a direct replacement? what size (I assume 1", but any other specifics?) do I need if looking for a vintage replacement.
Thanks in advance.
- I do not use FB at all. For many reasons, all personal. A shame, because it CAN be used as a great resource for many things, bike related and otherwise. Unfortunately I cannot seek the expertise of the FB group which sounds like it would be a fantastic, but is not meant to be.
- I DO NOT, plan to have it refinished, or anything at this point, if ever. At most, if I can do so easily enough, I will look at having the block Carlton decals removed, and replace them with something more period accurate. Was just curious. Frame has been treated w/framsaver already
- Does anyone know what I would be looking at for weight on this built w/period correct parts? I am no weight weenie, but trying to figure out how to save as much weight as possible. I mentioned 25 lbs period correct as an estimation. I have no reason to believe it will be less, do you?
- I am still tempted for a VO wheelset. I have vintage hubs lined up, but the appeal of a new, sealed hub wheelset that I do not have to worry about as much for day to day use is appealing, and using the period correct stuff for when I want to be flashier. I think they look period style close enough-ish to me.
- I have been looking into older cranks. I have no desire for cottered at all. Does anyone know the durability of the 50.4 type cranks? I am no watt machine, but am pretty strong and plenty fat. Don't want to be shearing crank arms with my Pegasus thighs. any suggestions for long term? I have a replica type on the way for the meanwhile.
- headset. current campy is not direct fit for frame (anyone interested in it?). does anyone know what would be a direct replacement? what size (I assume 1", but any other specifics?) do I need if looking for a vintage replacement.
Thanks in advance.
06-14-18, 01:48 PM
#33
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I don't think there will be much of a weight penalty for using 'vintage' or pseudo-vintage parts, rather than modern. There will be a weight penalty for using steel parts where you could use aluminum, but even that can be overrated.
Here's a somewhat similar bike, my 1964 JRJ Olympic Sprint, and it's about 25 lbs (I can't even remember whether I've weighed it or not).
The stem (1960's Titan) and handlebar (Soma track bar) are chromed steel and (I think) look pretty cool. The steel bar might make functional sense, because the handlebar gets more abuse on a fixed gear than on a geared bike. Brake calipers are Universal mod 51, brake levers are GB Coureur Super Rapide. Crank is a Stronglight 49d with an Electra track ring. Hubs are English steel, 32h front, 40h rear. Front rim is a Mavic MA2, rear is a Wolber 58 (it is hard to find a nice 40h 700c rim). Pedals are some generic SPD. I don't even know what the seat post is, it's ugly but functional (a staight 27.2 aluminum pin would be lighter and more appropriate, but I had this in the bin). I don't remember what my headset is; Tange, probably, a pretty good copy of a Campagnolo one.
I don't think you have to worry about the 50.4 mm chain rings; get an 1/8" (track) ring and it'll be fine. 46t is typical (mine is a 44t, I think).
The only downside worth mentioning, if you go with modern looking parts, is you might be tempted to get more period-correct parts at some point in the future if they turn up at the right price, and you could end up with enough spare parts to build another bike
. Ask me how I know this 
Here's a somewhat similar bike, my 1964 JRJ Olympic Sprint, and it's about 25 lbs (I can't even remember whether I've weighed it or not).
The stem (1960's Titan) and handlebar (Soma track bar) are chromed steel and (I think) look pretty cool. The steel bar might make functional sense, because the handlebar gets more abuse on a fixed gear than on a geared bike. Brake calipers are Universal mod 51, brake levers are GB Coureur Super Rapide. Crank is a Stronglight 49d with an Electra track ring. Hubs are English steel, 32h front, 40h rear. Front rim is a Mavic MA2, rear is a Wolber 58 (it is hard to find a nice 40h 700c rim). Pedals are some generic SPD. I don't even know what the seat post is, it's ugly but functional (a staight 27.2 aluminum pin would be lighter and more appropriate, but I had this in the bin). I don't remember what my headset is; Tange, probably, a pretty good copy of a Campagnolo one.
I don't think you have to worry about the 50.4 mm chain rings; get an 1/8" (track) ring and it'll be fine. 46t is typical (mine is a 44t, I think).
The only downside worth mentioning, if you go with modern looking parts, is you might be tempted to get more period-correct parts at some point in the future if they turn up at the right price, and you could end up with enough spare parts to build another bike
. Ask me how I know this
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06-14-18, 07:13 PM
#34
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Drop the fork and measure the diameter of the crown race seat. Could be 26.4, could be 27.0. Could be mangled. Old English is definitely a spot where you could have something non-standard. Both are still reasonably available. Not sure what you mean by not direct fit but crown race is first thing I would check. And then call Andy at Yellow Jersey. He has overstock of very correct Rewax/RFG headsets. They look old and funky, work fine. If you want shinier than that Tange Levin is new and Japanese but works really well and looks a whole lot like Campy NR. Also modestly priced and still a quality piece. Me and Rudy will know you have a non-period headset, very few others will.
Vintage cranks are fine. Some here should know the story of Reg Harris making his comeback and winning British Professional Sprint Champs in 1974. He did that on one of his old bikes from 1949 that had been resting in the Raleigh Museum. Complete with 1949 cranks. There are lots of 50.4 cranks out there. First guess is you are thinking of Stronglight or T.A. The only caution with those is the 170 cranks are much stronger as they had a dedicated forging die while the other lengths were cut down from big blanks. But you are very unlikely to have problems unless you manage to do huge miles. With steel 50.4 cranks no problems at all, except rust. If by replica type you mean Sun XCD that is an impressive crank. Also costs as much as a stack of old Stronglight cranks. The Stronglight cranks are not hard to find.
Do not worry about reliability of old hubs. I am using an F.B. track hub which is not newer than 1940s and more likely prewar. Was NOS but with a badly bent axle. A Campy Tipo axle went right in and now I get to ride with a QR track hub for fixed training. On another bike am running a pair of definitely 1930s FB road hubs. What would go wrong? And easy to service.
Expect 20 pounds. It's a track bike. The Jackson above includes a few accoutrements, those add up fast. Straight seatposts are light, the saddle clamp is lead. The period post that was light was Unica. Anyone know if those red nylon inserts work 60 years later? Or Campy, but early ones are one of those parts that is always very high priced and very scarce. UnicaNitor saddle is of course the period way to get a light saddle. After that you want light rims, tubular rims. Alloy bar and stem, not steel, if you want light. Basic Lyotard pedals are light, old ones are strong. Not a lot else to do on a track bike. You can always pay the price for Duprat hollow cranks with hollow spindle, those are lighter than carbon. You will be surprised how light a Stronglight crank is. Definitely less than the new copies.
Was looking at the old Carlton catalogs another poster linked to. In the '60 and '61 catalogs saw Flyer track Model BC. Signifying Bare Clearance for tubular tires. Of course such a spec could have been made at any time if a customer asked for it. With 37mm brake drop sounds like what you have. Saving grace here is going to be that track tubulars were not all that small in 50s and early 60s. Rather odd they left the fender eyes together with the tight clearance. But it just wouldn't be British if there weren't something odd.
Vintage cranks are fine. Some here should know the story of Reg Harris making his comeback and winning British Professional Sprint Champs in 1974. He did that on one of his old bikes from 1949 that had been resting in the Raleigh Museum. Complete with 1949 cranks. There are lots of 50.4 cranks out there. First guess is you are thinking of Stronglight or T.A. The only caution with those is the 170 cranks are much stronger as they had a dedicated forging die while the other lengths were cut down from big blanks. But you are very unlikely to have problems unless you manage to do huge miles. With steel 50.4 cranks no problems at all, except rust. If by replica type you mean Sun XCD that is an impressive crank. Also costs as much as a stack of old Stronglight cranks. The Stronglight cranks are not hard to find.
Do not worry about reliability of old hubs. I am using an F.B. track hub which is not newer than 1940s and more likely prewar. Was NOS but with a badly bent axle. A Campy Tipo axle went right in and now I get to ride with a QR track hub for fixed training. On another bike am running a pair of definitely 1930s FB road hubs. What would go wrong? And easy to service.
Expect 20 pounds. It's a track bike. The Jackson above includes a few accoutrements, those add up fast. Straight seatposts are light, the saddle clamp is lead. The period post that was light was Unica. Anyone know if those red nylon inserts work 60 years later? Or Campy, but early ones are one of those parts that is always very high priced and very scarce. UnicaNitor saddle is of course the period way to get a light saddle. After that you want light rims, tubular rims. Alloy bar and stem, not steel, if you want light. Basic Lyotard pedals are light, old ones are strong. Not a lot else to do on a track bike. You can always pay the price for Duprat hollow cranks with hollow spindle, those are lighter than carbon. You will be surprised how light a Stronglight crank is. Definitely less than the new copies.
Was looking at the old Carlton catalogs another poster linked to. In the '60 and '61 catalogs saw Flyer track Model BC. Signifying Bare Clearance for tubular tires. Of course such a spec could have been made at any time if a customer asked for it. With 37mm brake drop sounds like what you have. Saving grace here is going to be that track tubulars were not all that small in 50s and early 60s. Rather odd they left the fender eyes together with the tight clearance. But it just wouldn't be British if there weren't something odd.
05-12-21, 08:05 PM
#35
It's the little things
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Almost 3 years too late
Initial mockup. Yes wheels/hubs not period accurate. Have some Brampton hubs that will now go to the Claud Butler build for now. 2100ish grams for frame and 850ish for fork. GB bars and stem. Generic seatpost. TA crankset and ring. 70ish Brooks professional. Weinmann 500 nos caliper, and lever w/Carlton branded hood. Need pedal/cage, and bar tape. Hopefully a diff saddle in time. Will update as I update and complete fully. Will get built weight up at some point. Plan 15-20 tomorrow to get a feel.
Last edited by Senrab62; 09-09-22 at 09:49 PM.
05-12-21, 09:01 PM
#36
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Saddle is pretty far forward but that is just by eyeball, if you keep it there you could use a saddle stabilizer support to support the forward frame of the seat.
05-12-21, 09:45 PM
#37
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looks like it would be a fun ride !
To me the serial number make it very late 60s based on my Carlton with a serial of E1068 .
Have pinned my frame date down to 67 or 68 based on pictorial evidence from back then.
Just my opinion :-)
Ride it , enjoy it !
To me the serial number make it very late 60s based on my Carlton with a serial of E1068 .
Have pinned my frame date down to 67 or 68 based on pictorial evidence from back then.
Just my opinion :-)
Ride it , enjoy it !
07-27-21, 06:44 AM
#38
It's the little things
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Donezo
Will get final weight. Will be in the 21.5ish rate I think with Brooks. With higher end/lighter tires and tubes could probably shave a couple hundred grams.
One time owned by Martin Copland who was a Scottish grass path (track) racer of some clout. From my internet sleuthing, was able to determine it came to Chicago area about 15 years ago. Passed some hands, got to me. Not 💯 period correct, but is 100% functional, rideable, and perfect for me. Just sharing what I have info wise, for future reference and documentation. Frame repaired at some point near seat post binder. Has support bands which make max seatpost 26.7, originally would have been 27.2.
- 1969(?) Carlton Flyer RT model (drilled for front brake) this is purely speculation on year and model. Frame bare is approx 2180 grams, fork approx 790 grams. 60 c-t seat tube x 57 c-c top tube.
- Tange headset- campy bottom bracket (114mm iso, perfect chain line)
- GB bars (map) and stem- generic seatpost and saddle clamp
- Stronglight 49d crankset
- TA chainring (looking for criterium/track adaptor for all you hoarders who have one)- Brooks swallow
- Milwaukee Bicycle Co hubs laced to mavic open elite (I know, but close enough from 10 feet)
- Continental Grand Prix classic 700x25
- VO cotton bar tape, over Fizik 2mm gel pads- Velox wood plugs, Velox classic (washer) didn't fit, will replace when I get washer solution figured out- Weinmann 500 caliper (NOS)
- Weinmann lever w/Carlton hood- MKS Sylvan touring pedals and cages w/custom toe straps
I think that's it. Will post better pics when I'm out and about with DSLR. Nursing a separation of the AC joint, so no riding for now.
Riding impressions: fairly light, tracks well. Some BB/stay flex when climbing, but I'm also a large man. Relaxed enough for 30 mile FG rides. Could probably fit smaller measuring 28mm in front, maybe 30mm in rear. Too much into it money wise, but happy where it is.
One time owned by Martin Copland who was a Scottish grass path (track) racer of some clout. From my internet sleuthing, was able to determine it came to Chicago area about 15 years ago. Passed some hands, got to me. Not 💯 period correct, but is 100% functional, rideable, and perfect for me. Just sharing what I have info wise, for future reference and documentation. Frame repaired at some point near seat post binder. Has support bands which make max seatpost 26.7, originally would have been 27.2.
- 1969(?) Carlton Flyer RT model (drilled for front brake) this is purely speculation on year and model. Frame bare is approx 2180 grams, fork approx 790 grams. 60 c-t seat tube x 57 c-c top tube.
- Tange headset- campy bottom bracket (114mm iso, perfect chain line)
- GB bars (map) and stem- generic seatpost and saddle clamp
- Stronglight 49d crankset
- TA chainring (looking for criterium/track adaptor for all you hoarders who have one)- Brooks swallow
- Milwaukee Bicycle Co hubs laced to mavic open elite (I know, but close enough from 10 feet)
- Continental Grand Prix classic 700x25
- VO cotton bar tape, over Fizik 2mm gel pads- Velox wood plugs, Velox classic (washer) didn't fit, will replace when I get washer solution figured out- Weinmann 500 caliper (NOS)
- Weinmann lever w/Carlton hood- MKS Sylvan touring pedals and cages w/custom toe straps
I think that's it. Will post better pics when I'm out and about with DSLR. Nursing a separation of the AC joint, so no riding for now.
Riding impressions: fairly light, tracks well. Some BB/stay flex when climbing, but I'm also a large man. Relaxed enough for 30 mile FG rides. Could probably fit smaller measuring 28mm in front, maybe 30mm in rear. Too much into it money wise, but happy where it is.
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