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Is 84.3 Gear-Inches Enough?

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Is 84.3 Gear-Inches Enough?

Old 10-20-18, 05:49 AM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
Triple cranks are made for this reason. You can have it all with a triple.
dude, you are way oot of line!
two-by and one-by are THE way, triples are impossible to set up and use and I assure you, are used only by the elderly and infirmed with teeny tiny manhoods.

dumbassery aside, horses for courses, and for off road stuff, the really wide range cassettes are pretty darn versatile, but I don't do that type of riding and so don't have personal experience with them.
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Old 10-20-18, 07:29 AM
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hey Mr Retiree with no control, dont think you answered, is your drivetrain for the troll 10 or 11 speed?

I was just looking at cassette cogs like the 11 speed 11-40 and saw that it has the same good jumps as the 10 speed 11-36 that came on my wifes stock troll, but with the added 40 at the end.
question--are there and how about a 10-40 or whatever, that would give you some more high gearing. Dont know if they exist though.
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Old 10-20-18, 08:17 AM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
Triple cranks are made for this reason. You can have it all with a triple.
Originally Posted by djb View Post
dude, you are way oot of line!
two-by and one-by are THE way, triples are impossible to set up and use and I assure you, are used only by the elderly and infirmed with teeny tiny manhoods.

dumbassery aside, horses for courses, and for off road stuff, the really wide range cassettes are pretty darn versatile, but I don't do that type of riding and so don't have personal experience with them.
Then I guess that I must be a brilliant mechanic because the triples on two of my touring bikes, my rando bike, my vintage Bridgestone errand bike, and my even older Italian racing bike are all set up quite well and I have no trouble using them. Or, perhaps my elderly and infirm teeny tiny manhood is the reason that I had no trouble setting up and using my triples.
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Old 10-20-18, 08:43 AM
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Control, another aside.
I just looked at the gearing chart of one of my bikes, a commuter which is an old hybrid with a cheap 42/34/24 crank, and 7speed 11-28 on it. Its top gear of 34-11 on 700x35 is almost exactly your setup, at 84g.i and as I rode the bike a lot this year, I know that I regularly ride it at 84 g.i to about that 35-40kph speed you mentioned (22mph/35kph at 90) in the mid ring, too lazy to change to the 42 tooth on the short downhills on my commute.

All I can say is that from my touring experience, the times you actually go faster than 30kph are not that often, so with the limitations of a double, and the fact that you say you arent into going fast down hills, this will be fine--especially when you take into account that 90% of the time, you'll be completely in the 10-25kph range.

I'd say its way more important to figure out your equipment amount, how it will pack on the bike well, and what stuff you want and need to be comfortable, no matter what others use and suffer through. Not to mention just getting out and keeping active so that you have a good physical base come spring for bike training if you are able to fit the divide ride into things next year. Not to mention just a lot of riding on diff surfaces and such to maintain or improve your bike handling skills and reactions.
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Old 10-20-18, 09:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
Then I guess that I must be a brilliant mechanic because the triples on two of my touring bikes, my rando bike, my vintage Bridgestone errand bike, and my even older Italian racing bike are all set up quite well and I have no trouble using them. Or, perhaps my elderly and infirm teeny tiny manhood is the reason that I had no trouble setting up and using my triples.
Perhaps I’m missing something but you should investigate that “Wooosh!” sound.

Kidding aside, I look on the 1x and 2x foolishness just admission that people...even people at SRAM and Shimano... don’t understand front derailers and, rather than learn how to set them up and use them, they limit our ability. I once read an interveiw with the guy at SRAM (I forget his name) who designed the 1x...how much design is there in removing 2 chainrings? He said that changing the chainring on the crank completely changed the character of the bicycle. I completely agree. But he was talking about removing the chainring and putting on another one.

I just carry a couple of rings with me and have them conveniently attached to something that allows me to move them from one ring to another. And, for added convenience, I have a simple mechanism that moves the chain from one to another so that my hands don’t get dirty and so that I don’t have to stop at the bottom of a hill to unbolt one ring and bolt another one on. Nor do I have to stop at the top of a hill to do the same thing.
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Old 10-20-18, 09:10 AM
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to me, its still about selling new poop (and thus it shall ever be) and reducing costs of manufacturing shifters and stuff so you streamline the product lines.
And realistically, touring bikes are a smidgen of the market, always have been, and rd and cassette design mean that double stuff works pretty nicely for lots of applications such as mtn biking where I can see it being an advantage.
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Old 10-20-18, 11:52 AM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Nope. Sorry but just nope. The amount of energy I expend by pedaling up to speed on a downhill pales in comparison to the amount of energy expended on the next uphill. I'm not talking about "maximum effort" either. I've already expended maximum effort climbing the hill. Gravity is giving me a boost and I'm just taking advantage of it.

Coasting down hills after a strenuous climb hurts way more when you reach the next climb because lactic acid build up and shortens the muscle fibers in your legs. When you need those muscles...and you will..., the fibers are contracted and don't want to move again. It hurts a whole lot and it's worse if you've spent a long time coasting. Being able to have a bit of resistance while pedaling won't wear you done as much and keeps the muscles from tightening up.

I'm also not talking about short hills here. I'm talking about miles long descents of which there is an abundance in my area and of which I've encountered hundreds while touring. It's even worse for off-road touring because I coast a lot more actively than I do on pavement. By that I mean that on-road, I coast relatively relaxed. My feet are parallel to the ground but I usually have more weight on the saddle (not a lot but more). Off-road, my feet are parallel to the ground but there's a lot more tension in my legs because I'm using them to "spring" my ride. As the bike hits potholes and rocks, my legs are tense and flexing at the same time. My legs get fatigued easily and having a higher gear with a bit of resistance while pedaling allows me to work some of that fatigue out. Spinning at high rpms just doesn't do the same thing.
This has not been my experience. I prefer to climb at a sustainable speed so I never face lactic acid buildup or muscle tightening. I am in normal, not exceptional shape. If I climbed at lactic threshold like you are describing, I'd be dead after a few days.

When I am doing a long touring day, anything longer than a century, and especially when reaching 200km, hypoglycemia is the main difficulty. My muscles and liver have a set amount of glycogen stored from the previous night. If I eat continuously, I can reach the end of the day without bonking. I don't move one extra muscle when I don't have to. Riding hard the first 120km only to limp the last 80km would add hours to my time.

There are in-shape people in the ultra cycling forum who can ride 200k's every day like it's no big deal. That's never going to happen for me with my lazy lack of training. I did some cycling in Colorado this summer and everyone there seems to be in great shape. Clearly better shape than me.
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Old 10-21-18, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by Yan View Post
This has not been my experience. I prefer to climb at a sustainable speed so I never face lactic acid buildup or muscle tightening. I am in normal, not exceptional shape. If I climbed at lactic threshold like you are describing, I'd be dead after a few days.

I’m not talking about doing anaerobic efforts. Just normal climbing. But that does require more effort than pedaling downhill even at high speeds. Putting in that kind of effort leads to making lactic acid as does any exercise. But stopping pedaling at the top of a hill and coasting for extended periods after a hard effort doesn’t clear the lactic acid from the muscles and allows them to stiffen. The stiffness is even worse when the muscles are locked into one position which is what most people do when coasting.
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Old 10-21-18, 10:24 AM
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When I was commuting on a 26er with slicks, i often felt like my cruising gear was awkwardly high and it caused me to shift the 42-32 a lot. When I switched to a 48-38-28 crankset I barely used the top ring any more.
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Old 10-21-18, 04:20 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie View Post
My partners Troll runs a 20-30-40 front and 11-40 rear, gives her something like 727%. Lowest gear is 13.2 inches, highest is 96, which seems to do the trick, she has no problems balancing with the 13.2.. The 20T front is by aMTBer. Needs a bit of file work on the spider and the chainring bolts to fit though.
If I may ask an off-topic question...: what derailleurs is your partner using with this setup? Any issues?
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Old 10-21-18, 05:11 PM
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Originally Posted by alias5000 View Post
If I may ask an off-topic question...: what derailleurs is your partner using with this setup? Any issues?
both front and rear are standard 9 speed Deore. Rear is a RD-M592-SGS works just fine.
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Old 10-21-18, 05:30 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Darth Lefty View Post
When I was commuting on a 26er with slicks, i often felt like my cruising gear was awkwardly high and it caused me to shift the 42-32 a lot. When I switched to a 48-38-28 crankset I barely used the top ring any more.
riding unloaded or lightly loaded with a mtb triple crank, a la 42/32/22 or similar, does pose that problem. I commuted a long time on a bike with that crank, and having to shift between the 32 and 42 is a bit annoying, and exactly why for all around riding, the triples like 48/36/26 or thereabouts make such good cranksets.
Load a bike up though and the mtb triple works a treat. Most of the time on the flats in the mid ring, small ring for climbing, and big ring for tailwinds, slight downhills and downhills in general, and you arent cross chaining the crap out of stuff, and I find you really do use all of your cassette and chainrings, which is surely good for spreading out the chain wear all over the drivetrain, better for long term wear.
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Old 10-21-18, 09:55 PM
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie View Post
both front and rear are standard 9 speed Deore. Rear is a RD-M592-SGS works just fine.
Good to hear, thank you!
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Old 10-22-18, 05:02 AM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by alias5000 View Post
If I may ask an off-topic question...: what derailleurs is your partner using with this setup? Any issues?
Not really off topic in my opinion because effective gearing needs a way to be shifted. I was going to ask him the very same question.
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Old 10-22-18, 05:57 AM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie View Post
both front and rear are standard 9 speed Deore.
Tell me more about this nine-speed front derailleur.
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Old 10-22-18, 06:42 AM
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Originally Posted by DanBell View Post
Tell me more about this nine-speed front derailleur.
9 speed chain is wider than 8 speed and narrower than 10 speed. 20T is not a very big front ring, There aren't many FDs that can get down that low and still have clearance on the 40T over the full range of the rear cassette, the chain only just clears the bottom of a 9 speed shimano FD if it's designed for a 40T large chainring.. A 10 speed FD won't work without chain drag somewhere because the side plates are too close together, I tried, that at first because that's what was on there before I changed the crank.. 8 speed might work, but I didn't find one in my parts box that suited the 40T. So yeah, FDs can be 8, 9, 10 or 11 speed compatible, depending on the width between the side plates. I may be wrong about the FD I used being Deore, it could be Alivio, but I'm not going out to the shed in the dark to look. I do know it's side swing and 3 x 9 speed for a 40T max chain ring size.
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Old 10-22-18, 07:55 AM
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Originally Posted by Trevtassie View Post
(useful information that I was unaware of)
I was mostly just joking about the idea of having nine gears front and back, but I get what you meant now and why you wrote it that way. Attempt at humor failed...
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Old 11-24-18, 10:25 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by NoControl View Post
Yeah it looks like about 22mph @ 90 rpm, which for me is pretty good.
It looks like you kinda' answered your own question here. Or at least simplified the question.
Do you want to be able to get power to the pedals over 22mph? Myself, I like to poke along and don't place much importance on the nature of the stiffer gears. My set up has a 15.7 gear-inch low and a 103 high. If I downshift to the next largest sprocket on the cassette, I'm at 87.2. I think I could get by with that. I might only use that gear a handful of times a tour, but it would be weird not to have it.
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Old 11-25-18, 06:40 AM
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BUILD UPDATE:

I've had an incredibly bad go of matching up a decent front derailleur and getting everything to shift properly. My attempt at using MTB brakes, cranks, and derailleurs has failed miserably. I've now made it a 1x11, which gets it to rideable status. I blame it partly on Surly and their use of a 28.6mm seat tube, which nothing fits but road derailleurs, and those are very limited. Yes, I can shim the MTB front derailleurs, but they look dorky on that skinny tube, and consequently have difficulty shifting to the outer ring because they were meant to be used on 39.4mm tubes.

I'll get this bike on the road, but for some reason, I'm getting brain freeze over it. Maybe I should just stick to restoring old bikes instead of building new ones.

Meanwhile, do any of you have any good suggestions for a gruppo that will give me some high gear-inches on one end and nice lows on the other, and still shift right? I'd even go to a triple at this point!
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Old 11-25-18, 09:14 AM
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refresh my memory, what double setup did you have that you felt wasnt shifting well to the big ring? Was it 10 or 11 speed.
I assume you are using trigger shifters, what ones?

when you say you had diff shifting to the big ring, how specifically was it difficult? Hard to know (impossible really) on the interwebs and not doing the shifting myself to really get an idea of what you mean. One persons "difficult shifting" is another persons "no problem".

Im certainly not the right person for current systems recommendations, my troll is 9 speed triple, my wifes stock troll is that 10 speed 48/36/26 deore stock crankset that I put deore 10spd trigger shifters on to replace the thumbies that come with the stock bike, and I imagine 10 speed mtb triples like 44/32/24 or whatever they were are harder to find nowadays.

I have to ask also, do you plan to keep the bike or to sell it?
if not keeping it cuz you'll be using the ecr, then making it useable and letting someone else do what they want with it is always an option.

I figure there is always going to be a market for a troll for folks looking to do long trips far away, they are incredibly versatile bikes and those people know it.
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Old 11-25-18, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
refresh my memory, what double setup did you have that you felt wasnt shifting well to the big ring? Was it 10 or 11 speed.
I assume you are using trigger shifters, what ones?

when you say you had diff shifting to the big ring, how specifically was it difficult? Hard to know (impossible really) on the interwebs and not doing the shifting myself to really get an idea of what you mean. One persons "difficult shifting" is another persons "no problem".

Im certainly not the right person for current systems recommendations, my troll is 9 speed triple, my wifes stock troll is that 10 speed 48/36/26 deore stock crankset that I put deore 10spd trigger shifters on to replace the thumbies that come with the stock bike, and I imagine 10 speed mtb triples like 44/32/24 or whatever they were are harder to find nowadays.

I have to ask also, do you plan to keep the bike or to sell it?
if not keeping it cuz you'll be using the ecr, then making it useable and letting someone else do what they want with it is always an option.

I figure there is always going to be a market for a troll for folks looking to do long trips far away, they are incredibly versatile bikes and those people know it.
The rear shifter is a Sram X1 11-speed, and the front shifter is a Sram GX. The cassette is a Shimano 11-42. I think what I'll do is to get the Wolf Tooth 49T cog, and just keep it 1x11 for now. I'm getting 18.9 low and an 84.3 with this combo. Perhaps later I will explore a whole different setup, but I got other fish to fry at the moment. Besides, it's darn expensive to swap out new components for new components. Christmas is coming, yada yada yada. I do intend to keep it, but its probably best to try it out and tune it as I go. I love my ECR, but the Troll will be my rig for fully-loaded touring.
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Old 11-25-18, 10:08 AM
  #72  
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I was meaning your double setup, I thought you still had it, but no matters.
When and if you do some loaded up touring with the Troll, the 10 sp. stock setup I mentioned is pretty versatile as is, and the parts are regular deore stuff that are reasonably priced, but thats up to you to balance what costs they come to. Used stuff is always also a possibility.
Here is the gearing chart for the stock setup, 10 speed, with 1.5 inch tires on it. 18-109 g.i.
and the chart for my 9 spd mtb crank setup, which works fantastically for mountainy riding and more of a heavy load, ie the 32 mid ring is great, but as I mentioned earlier in this thread, the stock deore 48/36/26 is an extremely versatile and user friendly setup with the 36 ring being a great size, plus you can change the 26 to a 24 or even 22 easily.
But dont forget, I was happy to use 9 speed because I figured it was a good idea for where I was travelling for perhaps having an easier time finding 9 spd stuff, also I was carrying more weight than usual because I was in Latin America, and also I knew that there would be some really steep stuff sometimes, so wanted the mtb crank to have lower gearing overall--- if not for this stuff, I would have been happy using 10 speed and given how easy it is to lower the current 10 speed triple setup low gear with just a cheap granny gear change, the 10 speed Deore triple setup on the stock troll, or LHT or other touring bikes, is a very good setup for touring in general (minus the fact that you cant use 10 speed brifters with 10 mtb setups).
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Old 11-25-18, 10:25 AM
  #73  
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Regarding shims, I wanted to use an old Suntour front derailleur on the bike in the photo, but needed a shim. A few years earlier when I had bought a threadless stem, it came with a 1 to 1 1/8 inch shim. A little work with a hack saw on that old shim and I had a smaller two part shim that fit on the derailleur perfectly. You have to look close to realize it is shimmed.

But I use a friction front shifter (bar end), if you are mis-matching shifters and derailleurs and cranks, it is best to avoid an indexed shifter. And I am running a half step plus granny set of chainrings that would likely cause great difficulty for any indexed shifter.



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Old 11-25-18, 10:39 AM
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in the 80s a high normal FD could be found...

cable pulled both to low gear, return springs pulled both back to high..

down tube levers , both pulled back going up the hill ,

at the top, headed down, both levers pushed forward..
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Old 11-25-18, 12:19 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
in the 80s a high normal FD could be found...

cable pulled both to low gear, .....
The Suntour derailleur in my photo in post number 73 is such a derailleur.

But how will that help make the OPs system work?
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