Unknown! Please HELP me identify this Vintage frame!
04-17-19, 02:18 PM
#1
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Unknown! Please HELP me identify this Vintage frame!
I got this at a swap meet basically for it’s parts. Upon disassembly, things about it seemed odd to the point of maybe I had stumbled onto something worth saving. Frame is light for it’s size. The T/A crank has odd sized extraction thread size. Derails and clamped to downtube shifters are Suntour. Lugs are kinda neat, has had a pair of horizontal rivets securing the missing headbadge. Paint looks original, (or a long ago and fairly detailed respray),yet there is evidence it started out as kind of a robin egg blue. Only stamping I’ve found is “C.28” on the bb shell. I’m thinking a Raleigh of some sort but really have no idea. Maybe someone here can solve this mystery. One other thing, the front derailleur attaches to a seemingly crimped onto tube mounting ring.
wedgeSG
04-17-19, 02:22 PM
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Zeus rear dropouts threw my guess.
Does the fork also have Zeus ends?
Does the fork also have Zeus ends?
04-17-19, 02:36 PM
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I do have a Viking frame I need an ID on though as to which model . . . .
Last edited by bikemig; 04-17-19 at 02:40 PM.
04-17-19, 02:41 PM
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04-17-19, 02:43 PM
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I’m thinking a Raleigh of some sort but really have no idea. Maybe someone here can solve this mystery.
One other thing, the front derailleur attaches to a seemingly crimped onto tube mounting ring.
Last edited by JohnDThompson; 04-17-19 at 02:46 PM.
04-17-19, 02:48 PM
#6
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Went and checked fork dropouts are indeed Zeus.
04-17-19, 03:11 PM
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1971 Carlton Kermesse in Lagoon Blue.
see page three in the Carlton catalogue of 1971:
https://veterancycleclublibrary.org.u...20Library).pdf
frame exhibits distinctive aerfoil brake bridge.
note rapier chainstays and Brampton Alatet headset.
constructed of Tru-Well tubeset.
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1971 Carlton Kermesse in Lagoon Blue.
see page three in the Carlton catalogue of 1971:
https://veterancycleclublibrary.org.u...20Library).pdf
frame exhibits distinctive aerfoil brake bridge.
note rapier chainstays and Brampton Alatet headset.
constructed of Tru-Well tubeset.
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Last edited by juvela; 04-18-19 at 02:24 PM. Reason: addition
04-17-19, 06:47 PM
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DING ding! I believe we have a winner : 1971 Carlton Kermesse in Lagoon Blue.
(or at least a VERY confident bluff, but I am convinced!) Even got an original color thru the chips...impressive work Juvela!
(or at least a VERY confident bluff, but I am convinced!) Even got an original color thru the chips...impressive work Juvela!
04-17-19, 07:06 PM
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Carlton Frame?
On first view it screamed French to me but Bocama Medium Point lugs with Zeus dropouts suggested Brit. The crown is an early 70's Wagner No 11.
The headset with the flats, Brampton, definitely Britlandia.
I've seen very few Carltons in the steel so I don't know enough to do a quick ID.
The 3 hardest words for a man to say: I DON'T KNOW
verktyg
The headset with the flats, Brampton, definitely Britlandia.
I've seen very few Carltons in the steel so I don't know enough to do a quick ID.
The 3 hardest words for a man to say: I DON'T KNOW
verktyg
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Chas. ;-)
Last edited by verktyg; 04-17-19 at 07:11 PM.
04-17-19, 07:18 PM
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One of the distinctive features of the Kermesse is the brake bridge.
Frames are constructed of Tru-Well tube set.
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One of the distinctive features of the Kermesse is the brake bridge.
Frames are constructed of Tru-Well tube set.
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04-17-19, 07:20 PM
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If you hang on to that TA Professional 3 pin crankset, be aware it is 116bcd. Not easy to find replacement chainrings in this size, and even harder to find rings smaller than the standard 52/42 of the time. A tip - looks for Stronglight Touring Sport (TS) rings if you need replacements. They seem to be more common than the TA equivalents and are same BCD.
04-17-19, 10:42 PM
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Concur that it's a Carlton - at first glance, it made me think of the thought of the similarly spec'ed '71-72 Raleigh Competitions, but the two-hole headbadge means either Carlton or Anniversary badge Raleigh - and it's not a Raleigh. NOTE: Boy, am I rusty.
Curious about the Kermesse model though. Most of the ones I can find are stamped dropout models w/Simplex. Another infamous equipment + dropout substitute from the masters of parts bin engineering?
-Kurt
Curious about the Kermesse model though. Most of the ones I can find are stamped dropout models w/Simplex. Another infamous equipment + dropout substitute from the masters of parts bin engineering?
-Kurt
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Last edited by cudak888; 04-18-19 at 10:01 PM.
04-18-19, 06:22 AM
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The text description in the 1971 Carlton catalogue states forged ends.
See page three:
https://veterancycleclublibrary.org.u...20Library).pdf
BTW - the Raleigh Anniversary headplate is a three-holer -
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The text description in the 1971 Carlton catalogue states forged ends.
See page three:
https://veterancycleclublibrary.org.u...20Library).pdf
BTW - the Raleigh Anniversary headplate is a three-holer -
-----
04-18-19, 06:31 AM
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If you hang on to that TA Professional 3 pin crankset, be aware it is 116bcd. Not easy to find replacement chainrings in this size, and even harder to find rings smaller than the standard 52/42 of the time. A tip - looks for Stronglight Touring Sport (TS) rings if you need replacements. They seem to be more common than the TA equivalents and are same BCD.
In addition to the T.A. Trois Attachees and Verot TS sets the Sutherland manual lists the following manufacturers of the three-arm 116mm BCD chainwheels -
Campagnolo (Sport)
Cinelli
Duprat
Durax
Gnutti
Haubtmann
Magistroni
NERVAR
Simplex
Solida
Zeus
(partial list)
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04-18-19, 08:09 AM
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The serial # font is reminiscent of Raleigh/Carlton, and C would indicate 1968, but I've never seen other than 4 numerics following the letter, and have never seen a decimal point in the serial. Is there a matching serial # on the steerer?
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04-18-19, 05:19 PM
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Thanks very much for this observation.
In the course of me explorations investigated the Carlton catalogues of 1967-68, 1968-69 & 1969-70.
The Kermesse model does not appear in any of them.
It would appear that 1971 was the launch annum for this model.
For any readers who would like to investigate the catalogues are posted here -
Veteran-Cycle Club Online Library
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04-18-19, 07:58 PM
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If you hang on to that TA Professional 3 pin crankset, be aware it is 116bcd. Not easy to find replacement chainrings in this size, and even harder to find rings smaller than the standard 52/42 of the time. A tip - looks for Stronglight Touring Sport (TS) rings if you need replacements. They seem to be more common than the TA equivalents and are same BCD.
Source: Sutherland's 4th Edition
04-19-19, 09:14 AM
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04-19-19, 09:22 AM
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I'm another vote for an early 70's Raleigh, the Zeus dropouts are the tell for me. Two things: Raleigh did use the 3 bolt TA cranks on several models, and European bike builders in the 70's really lived out the phrase "specifications subject to change without notice." That bike could have been sold as a Carlton Kermesse, a Raleigh Competition, or a Raleigh Gran Sport and not being a real Raleigh fanatic probably a few other models that I'm not thinking about right now.
04-19-19, 03:50 PM
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The text description in the 1971 Carlton catalogue states forged ends.
See page three:
https://veterancycleclublibrary.org.u...20Library).pdf
BTW - the Raleigh Anniversary headplate is a three-holer -
-----
The text description in the 1971 Carlton catalogue states forged ends.
See page three:
https://veterancycleclublibrary.org.u...20Library).pdf
BTW - the Raleigh Anniversary headplate is a three-holer -
-----
-Kurt
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04-19-19, 06:18 PM
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Nothing wrong with your recollection.
In my explorations found several Kermesse which had been posted to venues such as blogs/fora/pinterest, etc.
Most of them had the rear mech mounted with a plate.
Also, most of them had full sloping crowns rather than the Vagner flat topper of our subject frameset.
Suspect the combination of features on this frame were only seen the one year...
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Last edited by juvela; 04-20-19 at 07:06 PM. Reason: edited for clarity
04-20-19, 06:37 PM
#22
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Thanks to all who helped on this. Cleared up a lot... and now I really don’t know where to go on it. Definitely not a disposable piece. Threw a pair of tire-free 700 wheels under it and wow is it too tall for me. Seems like it would be something worth the time and effort to rescue to someone.
wedgeSG
wedgeSG
04-20-19, 07:04 PM
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Now that you know what she be you could list her in the for sale forum.
Alternately, you could offer to trade her something which be thine size.
All best wishes with it.
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Now that you know what she be you could list her in the for sale forum.
Alternately, you could offer to trade her something which be thine size.
All best wishes with it.
-----
04-21-19, 08:13 PM
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Actually in negotiations with a Bike Forums member now...a plan is developing.
wedgeSG
wedgeSG
07-10-19, 08:29 PM
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I can reveal now that the '71 Kermesse found its way here - @wedgeSG and I worked out a deal for the Romani.
I'm not sure what I got myself into, since this thing appears to be a half inch bigger than my preferred max. I figure it'll be amusing to tinker with, nonetheless.
I'm definitely going to be wearing out my favors with Mike Terraferma this month, as the seatlug on this guy is definitely going to need a good cleaning, a sleeve, and a whole lot of brass - something my '75 Pro is already in line to get. I'll also need to fill some file marks in the seattube and re-flow the drive side seatstay cap...
I was surprised to find seamed tubing in here - but this thing does feel heavy. And wouldn't you know, the https://veterancycleclublibrary.org.uk is down right now, so I can't verify if this thing is supposed to have 531 main tubes or not. It just seems odd for Carlton to make a doppleganger for the 1970/71 Raleigh Grand Sport, but approach it with the tubing of a Grand Prix.
The bent dropout was easy enough to fix:
At any rate, this thing definitely puts the mess in kermesse. Admittedly, this joke is a lot funnier pronounced than written, but nothing's unfixable. Should be interesting to see this one put back the way it was meant to be.
Tempted to do this one with Spray.Bike's Bomber and Goldhawk Road - that is, if these paints do harden like catalyzed paint.
-Kurt
I'm not sure what I got myself into, since this thing appears to be a half inch bigger than my preferred max. I figure it'll be amusing to tinker with, nonetheless.
I'm definitely going to be wearing out my favors with Mike Terraferma this month, as the seatlug on this guy is definitely going to need a good cleaning, a sleeve, and a whole lot of brass - something my '75 Pro is already in line to get. I'll also need to fill some file marks in the seattube and re-flow the drive side seatstay cap...
I was surprised to find seamed tubing in here - but this thing does feel heavy. And wouldn't you know, the https://veterancycleclublibrary.org.uk is down right now, so I can't verify if this thing is supposed to have 531 main tubes or not. It just seems odd for Carlton to make a doppleganger for the 1970/71 Raleigh Grand Sport, but approach it with the tubing of a Grand Prix.
The bent dropout was easy enough to fix:
At any rate, this thing definitely puts the mess in kermesse. Admittedly, this joke is a lot funnier pronounced than written, but nothing's unfixable. Should be interesting to see this one put back the way it was meant to be.
Tempted to do this one with Spray.Bike's Bomber and Goldhawk Road - that is, if these paints do harden like catalyzed paint.
-Kurt
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Last edited by cudak888; 07-10-19 at 09:29 PM.