abdon 

As the company that aims to be the non plus ultra of professional level racing components I would measure their success by how many pro teams run their gear. I think for 2023 in the world tour only one team is using them.

smd4

QFT.

If that’s the metric, it’s pretty clear: they’re not successful any more…I’m actually sad about this. The books I couldn’t get enough of at the library in the mid 1980s painted Campy as the best of the best. Bar none. I (sorta) lusted after those parts. (still looking for some of those books).

And then came DA 7400…

abdon 

Well I'm into vintage stuff so whatever is happening now doesn't affect me. I love stuff from companies that don't even exist anymore.

smd4

Welcome to the club.

jamesdak 

I guess I'm the odd duck here. I just spent some time contemplating my ride impressions of the 30 road bikes I currently have. I can't think of a single time on any of the Shimano equipped bikes where the Shimano gear plays into what I notice and like about the bike as I ride it. The stuff works but it doesn't tickle my fancy in use.

Yet so much of the riding experience with the Campagnolo equipped bikes is about their part of the equation. The feel and such in use and under hand, the sound, etc. Same with the Suntour Superbe bikes, I just want to shift constantly for the shear pleasure of how it feels and works, just something about it. Heck the way the old used C-Record stuff on the Motta is working right now is truly exceptional.

Seems like every time I've bought new groupsets over the past decade it's predominately Campagnolo. Better feeling and working stuff in my opinion and cheaper than Shimano groupsets when dealing at the overseas sites. I've never bought a single new Dura Ace groupset and only Ultegra twice I think. I have picked up other NOS Shimano groupsets off the forums and such but only when at a great price. Shimano is cool stuff but a bit soul less if that makes any sense. Heck might be in my head but it's how I feel so I'm all good with it.

Funny thing too is that with the 80+ bikes that have gone through me the past dozen years or so I've never had a single one with any SRAM groupsets. I use their cassette's and chain with no qualms but have never had a bike equipped with their gear.

Anyway, just had to give Campagnolo so love with all the naysayer's in this thread.

repechage

pro tour team equipment sponsors are all money deals now. Observe the teams that flip away from Campagnolo or between Shimano and SRAM.
then wheel sponsors, frame sponsors, tires, pedals are the item that for the top riders are preference decisions.

iab

Yes, patents are for 20 years. But that patent didn't have much impact until the middle/late 70s. Expired in 84 and pretty much so did Suntour. That is what I meant by a few years. Even though Tullio's patents expired, he still dominated long after expiration.

iab

Yes and no. It does cost a lot to sponsor a team. So yes you do have to be successful to spend the cash. But in the end it is marketing to bring in profits and sometimes you change marketing plans for those profits.

SJX426 

My initial interest in "better" bikes triggered while I was in college. At that point, I was using my 6th bike, a UO-8 or equivalent, purchased in 1968 in Frankfurt Germany. The college trigger happened in 1971. Previous bikes were a Huffy, 2 3speed English, 5 speed Japanese with belt rear brake (first derailleur bike), and a Bridgestone 10 speed. I didn't pay much attention to any of the parts from a race or quality aspect. I did buy a second wheel set for the UO-8, sew-ups.
By this time I was riding a lot compared to previous years. I went to school in Austria, near Braunau am Inn, and would go for up to 50-mile rides two or three times a week, typically in less than 3 hours. That level of activity continued in college in College Place WA for PNW people.
The trigger was seeing a bike in the LBS with Campy stuff and starting to read bike magazines. I became infected and remain so.
Bening a mechanical engineer of the past, I am under the delusion that I can fix anything, including less than ideal performing parts. There is always opportunity for improvement, right?
I continue to be attracted to many Italian products and focus my meager collection attempts to Italian bikes. More often than not upper end of the line offerings of the time.
All have Campagnolo drive train components and there is a small stash of parts as well.
As many of you will recall, the Pinarello Montello purchase came with Shimano 740X parts and are likely original to the bike. The shifting is done with DT's. First road bike with index. Impressive. Put 4k miles on it in that configuration. Not a fan of the crank design, however. Being an Italian frame, it begged for it to be Campagnolo equipped. Parts were acquired over time with transitional configurations, Wheels MFG spacers on the Shimano block to support 8 speed Ergos. Complete conversion was 9 speed Campagnolo. Today it is Triple T.
My impression is that they are equal from a performance perspective. Shimano cables replaced with Campagnol cable set, etc.
I also have a Trek 760 with Suntour Superbe Pro indexed parts. Great performer too. The hidden springs calipers are amazing for single pivot.
Bottom line for me is my history of growth in appreciation for the bicycle. I tend to go period correct with all Italian on older bikes that are Italian. The exception are the 1991 Montello with slightly newer Racing T and the 1988 De Rosa Pro with 10 speed Super Record. These last two are my go to bikes.

Ernesto demonstrated that marketing is nearly everything for success. Doesn't matter if it is selling the use of the products to the pro teams or to the general public. Intel is another example with the Pentium math flaw and there recovery. Hype sells, not that innovation or improvements are not of value. But often the best performance does not mean success. Perceived value, real or not, is what sells.

himespau 

It could also be that they looked at the returns on investment and decided that there were other ways of marketing that gave them a better return for the same cost. Many sponsors get out of cycling after having been a named sponsor for a few years for the same reason. You'd think being a bike components company would result in a better return when sponsoring a cycling team, than being a TV channel or postal service, but I'm not an accountant or ad wizard.

smd4

Unless I'm mistaken, pro tour teams are all about winning.

mpetry912 

that is true, but keeping a large field in contention means a lot of advertising dollars poured into the sport.

The Tour is an incredible circus of advertising. And only one team can win. All of the teams need sponsorship.

and I think much of the advertising spend can be written off by companies who want to get their brand out there.

/markp

iab

We are definitely on the same page here. And if I go all conspiracy theory, Campagnolo could be decreasing sponsorship to increase ebita because they want to maximize their sell price. I'll say to that Texan who bought Cinelli.

mpetry912 

concur. A good part of the industry has been acquired by private equity or holding companies which have only a tenuous connection to the sport.

They are mostly concerned with maintaining revenue from "the brand".

Which means a lot more branded lifestyle items (jackets and sunglasses) and less innovation.

I do believe that Valentino's kids are planning to sell the company and get an "exit"

/markp

CV-6 

That should be CRampandgoslow

Robvolz 

Maybe the pedals were inspired by OFMEGA.

Sigh…..

iab

Now I know this impossible to predict, but other than e-bikes, there isn't a lot of room for innovation. 14 speeds? Nope. Lighter bikes? Nope. Aero? Nope. People have been trying for an automatic transmission, which can be done with an e-bike, but does it have impact on a mechanical bike? Maybe? Very simple things like bikes makes it more difficult to innovate, so I don't hold it against the bike industry.

I will say Cinelli still has the best steel-bike offering than any other company out there and I do like the artists they employ to make a cycling cap. At least they haven't started making baseball caps. Yuck. I don't know what niche Campagnolo carves in the future, but right know they are a bit to me-too. Something needs to change.

mpetry912 

I think the innovation is going to be in the realm of e-bikes, with internal gear hubs and gates drive belts replacing chains, and lighter weight motors and batteries.

I see this as a good thing because it gets more "real people" onto bikes in the real world, not a bunch of hyper emaciated nerds in sponsorship-festooned team kit riding carbon race bikes that are 3 sizes too small for them.

sorry ! I got off the meds there for a minute.

Anybody heard the story of the Campagnolo "Barber Shop Gruppo" parts ? I had a derailleur like this - a mishmash of versions.

Campagnolo Barber Shop Parts — Velo Aficionado

/markp

repechage

lighter bicycles are possible. The UCI minimum weight has set an artificial floor.
I own cycling caps. Never wear them. I dislike “hat hair”.

Anniversario 100 is coming. Almost always a turning point.

There is an opening that will be exploited at some point. Power meters, processor controlled integrated shifting, the bike senses the power capability and output of the rider and shifts in response and or in anticipation of the gradient to come if linked by GPS. The UCI will be furious but the wider market will force them to accept. Press the breakaway or sprint to come, the “red kite” button.

smd4

HAHAHA! God, I remember thinking this exact same thing when I was adjusting some new Shimano XTR Rapidfire shifters in 1989. How could shifting gears on a mountain bike possibly get any easier or more efficient? Those shifters were utter perfection. Where the industry could go from there was absolutely inconceivable.

(Record scratch)

And here we are…

repechage

retention and continuation of sponsor dollars and cash flow, budget. Otherwise they would keep top winning riders at all cost.

‘btw, who is going to pick up the 20M Jumbo Visma tab next year?

iab

Innovation is 2 parts, new and has impact. A 5kg bike has been around for a decade and has yet to make an impact. Again, crystal ball, I don't think it will ever have an impact on the bike market. Then again, the parallelogram derailleur took 13 years before it had an impact., Crabon fiber, 20 years? And about 20 years for e-shifting. So my prediction could be all wrong.

Your integrated shifting is what I meant by an automatic transmission. And I hesitate calling that innovative for mechanical bikes because of e-bikes. Yes, there will always be a place for mechanical, but the whole e-bike thing could make mechanical a niche product. According to the links below, e-bikes have a 35% market share. By 2030, over 50%. So if there is an integrated shifting solution for a mechanical bike, will it have impact? I'm more confident of that over a 5kg bike, but not much more than 50/50, imo.

https://www.fortunebusinessinsights....-market-102022
https://www.fortunebusinessinsights....-market-104524

iab

There will always be evolutionary change, but I think the odds are low on revolutionary innovation. I don't think there are any mainstream RDs lighter than the Cyclone, they have had 50 years to figure it out. And they don't shift that much better.

abdon 

We are in the Classic and Vintage forum... Whatever revolution the kids want to have today doesn't concern me.

I love vintage campagnolo. I'm yet to find the new stuff from any company I would care to spend top dollars on.

smd4

True. My 7700 25th Anniversary RD weighs 4 grams more than a Cyclone. It’s probably lighter after I swapped out the pulley wheel, but of course that’s not mainstream. Probably more durable with stainless pivot pins. Of course it’s indexed, and because of that, pretty much by definition shifts better. And of course it looks way better.

4 grams well-spent, if you ask me.