UmneyDurak

I have new carbon tubulars, 25mm in width. I use Vitorria tires, and Vitorria glue.
Glued them first time following usual procedure. Cleaned rims with acetone. Light coat on rims and tires. Dry for 24 hours, thicker coat on both, mount, center pump up to max and let it cure for 24+ hours in the house. I used three tubes between both wheels.

After few days I deflated and spots had gaps. I was able to pull off tire with my hands, partially. After I pulled tires off it looked like most glue remained on the tires.

Removed couple spots on rims with thick glue patches. Put a light coat on tire again, thick coat on rim. I used tub per tire. After around 30 hours deflated tested them by trying to pull tires off with thumbs (just trying to push them off, hard but not too hard). Everything seemed good.

Raced on them. Kept pressure at max when not in use. The next evening deflated and tested again. Front was good. Back had couple small spots where there was small gap. Putting some pressure I was able to pull tire from edges.

WTF am I doing wrong? I never had this issue with my old 23 mm rims.
My new wheels are Vision tubulars.

jsigone

try conti carbon glue next time, might work a bit better?

I do 2 layers on each than last layer on tire only before mounting.

Fox Farm

Well, if you get interested in tape, I use Tufo tape on my carbon tubular wheels, no problems. I use to do exactly what you were going with Conti glue but the 24 hours here and waiting there I abandoned.

rpenmanparker 

I recommend you try one of the tape brands too, but nevertheless you shouldn't be having the problem in the first place. Maybe the contour of the rim just doesn't match the tires and they are under stress. Then they are being pulled off by the forces operating during riding. I just don't understand why you need such wide rims for tubular tires. The aero advantages of wide clincher rims just don't translate to tubular.

beatlebee 

This sounds like a case of residue left on the rims from the manufacturing process. I know you cleaned them with acetone, but...sucks but it might be worth removing all glue, cleaning (include light sanding) again and re-gluing.

Life Saving Tubular Advice - Wheel Fanatyk

and IMO: glue is better than tape and Vittoria Mastik is tops.

Scarbo

Clinchers?

Oh, just kidding.

gl98115

That sounds like a lot of glue to me.

roca rule

That is a lot of glue and depending on the temperature 24 hours might've too little for it to dry off. I never had the problem you mentioned. I usually only use 1 tube of glue per rim and let it cure a bit before mounting the tire and then I over inflate the tire to maximise the bond between rim-glue-tire. Only thing I have to ask how cold/hot is the place where the tires are left to cure?

woodcraft

+1
Light sanding of new carbon rims

Doge

3 tubes is likely too much. Mastic One is as good as you can get. I use a can, but it is not over two tubes, more like 1.5 for a set. They are on tight. Yes, tape works. But you can do better.

Your tires are not setting on gluing. I KNOW some of this advice is a bit different, but try this.
Mount tires before gluing 1-2 days and pump to 100+ a few times. Notice seat. Some tire/rim combos are just not as good. But, you will see it then.
Glue time...
Do 1st layer on rim super thin. As thin as you can. Let dry. A day is fine. 3-4 hours may be fine.
Do base tape layer pretty thick on the sides. You need little/nothing on the center.

Before base tape glue dries pump tire to about 20 PSI and mount. Make straight. Then roll the wheel with 50# or so on both sides. But the wheel on the bike if you have to.

If you really want it set ... get everything straight. Leave 10-20PSI and wrap tire and rim with rope indenting tire.
Then pump to 120ish. Got to do this in about 10 min of mounting, while glue is still complaint. See pic. That will set the tire well. I only do this 30% of the time, but it works.
https://www.bikeforums.net/19288801-post19.html

UmneyDurak

Thanks for replies everyone. Sorry for late reply, just got back from sucking at Stage racing.

Dodge your approach is very similar to what I am doing. Although less glue.

Tires were at room temperature. I think it dropped to 60ish during the night.

Tires look good to me on the rim...

I think I'll just over with rear. Acetone to remove all old glue, light sand, once more with Acetone, and try again with mastif.

On tape. I had a thread about it... At the end of the day decided to go back to glue. Need to sleep on it, might reconsider and give the fancy new one a try.

Doge

(VM & P) Naptha takes Mastic One off better (I recall as acetone did not work as well and I don't have acetone anymore). Use on rim only and keep excess out of spoke holes.
It may be hard to find and is not sold in our county.
Then clean off the Naptha with Lacquer Thinner.
Keep Naptha away from any to-be-glued surfaces you can't clean. Do not use it on the tire. While extra Lacquer Thinner is not an issue, Naptha will keep glue from hardening.

Then when reglue-ing remember edges matter most. I clean any spill over on brake track right after gluing with Lacquer Thinner.

Some other things:
-Plummer's Teflon tape around valve before mounting.
-Use that rope idea around valve if you don't want to wrap the whole wheel.

rpenmanparker 

Naphtha and odorless mineral spirits (paint thinner) are essentially the same except naphtha may be a bit more volatile, i.e. more rapidly evaporating. OMS is safer because of the higher boiling and flash points. For the consumer OMS is also more easily available.

waters60

I don't fully inflate my Vittoria Rally tires after gluing. I don't want the tire squeezing too much glue. 40 - 50 lbs. pressure, enough to straighten the tire on the rim. I also don't worry about letting glue dry for 24 hours and lots of the mythology about mounting tires. On a previously glued rim I put on a coat of Vittoria rim cement and also a coat on the tire. Wait 25-20 min. Mount tire on rim. Ride next morning. Riding tubulars since '85 Never rolled once.

joejack951

Sort of on topic, I found OMS to be a very efficient solvent for Mastik One. Acetone basically does nothing in comparison though it will slightly 'reactivate' it, i.e. make it sticky again after it has dried.

I am not much of a chemist and thus found this article on solvents highly educational: A Primer on Solvents - Popular Woodworking Magazine

Psimet2001 

I glue on average 300+ tires a year that are all used in racing. In the last 6 years or so I have had a small handful actually roll. On each one I have been able to do a post mortem to learn and adjust my techniques.

Here's the thing with gluing: most of the people that glue aren't really doing enough but they trick themselves into thinking it's fine because they never end up pushing the tire to the point of failure of the bond. For some that's the definition of gluing. For me - not so much. I can't afford to have a tire roll under any circumstance - even when it's operator error.

Let's start with the materials - Vittoria. Vittoria tires have a latex coating on the basetape. While this makes sense to them for some reason I have found that in 2 or 3 instances that we have had tires roll where the bond between the latex and the cotton base tape has given way - not our gluing. The tires glue up better if the latex is removed from the base tape before gluing. We use a 3m style abrasive wheel on a drill press to burr/buff the latex off and raise the cotton fibers of the base tape.

Even regular cotton base tapes are corrupted by hand oils, general dirt and grease from storage and transportation unless bagged. For those tires We still use a wheel and buff the tape to raise the fibers of the base cotton.

Mastik 1. Period. It develops a much stranger bond than any other glue out there. If you object is not to roll then don't use anything other than that. There is no discussion on this. Mastik 1 works on all tires.

Clean the f out of your rims. Sand them. Even if they OEM says not to sand them....sand them. 160+ grit or higher. Quickly until you raise a white dust of epoxy. I clean with 98% rubbing alcohol/Camp Fuel until rag no longer picks up carbon black.

1 coat on tire and rim. Tire base tape should be soaked to fully absorb the glue. should not have excess glue on it once absorbed. Rim - fairly thin coat but full coverage in every nook and cranny. this is the adhesion layer.

24 hrs is great if you have it. 6 hours is really a minimum. Bond strength is marginally better at 24 than 6 but only by a factor of 5% or less IIRC. Quick glue and mount (race mounting as we call it) is possible and will result in a bond strength that is roughly 40%. Fine for some who need the wheel "TOMORROW".

Second coat - same on tire. Rim - little thicker building a smooth base that can match the tire profile.
24 hrs. again.

Before mounting - We place the tire on a clean rim and pump it up to max pressure. This effectively opens up the base tape - creating small "cracks" in the glue. It's these cracks that allow fingers of fresh glue in easily to help mesh the layers when mounted. It also helps expand the tire out to the stretched size making centered mounting way easier.

Last coat on the rim - thicker coat. When done - deflate the tire on the stretching rim and pull it off. Take the mounting rim and place it on the ground. Start at the valve. Stretch hard in the first section - align and press to mount. Stretch around the rim until seated. Pump up to max pressure and spin to check for alignment of the tire. Adjust if needed.

We then deflate completely and roll the tire and wheel combo over either the air hose or broom handle to help push the base tape into the base of the rim. We then re-inflate to roughly 40-50 psi cross tire and about 80 psi on the road. Let sit.

The result is a tire that is roughly welded to the rim. We often can not remove a tire in 1 piece even if we take out time.

I do a good enough job to be one of the few that still mounts a TON of tires each season. I charge a lot of money to do it and a lot of people gladly pay for it. Usually after they try to follow these specific instructions and fail.

I have trained a lot of employees on how exactly to do this and never fail - they end up with different results. As a result I personally glue everything. These are intelligent people too. Goes to show it's not just controlling the variables - there is a bit of skill involved as well. I am still trying to pinpoint where they are different than me and I believe it probably lies in the thickness of the layers.

trailangel

What's the point of riding tubulars if you put 100 grams of glue on each rim?

Psimet2001 

If you don't know then you don't need them. Stick with clinchers.

waters60

This was my point! The process just proscribed for mounting tubulars is enough to scare most people away. Many of my tires take quite a bit of effort to get off the rim and enough years of riding tubulars I know they won't roll. Maybe it is peculiar to my tire / rim combo ( Vitt. Rally + Ambrosio rims ) but it seems like a terrible amount of work for the same end result of a tire well mounted that won't roll. Is it really worth all the extra effort? Also, once my rims get a good layer of glue I would never strip them just to have to add more glue.

beatlebee 

Thanks for this info.

Doge

100g of glue cures to 30g.

And they ride better, flat less (in eq case), and are generally a 200g-300g lighter setup per wheel. Then you can get wheels and tires you just can't get in clinchers.

Doge

I agree with what you said. But the reason I glue with a ritual is to minimize rolling resistance.

woodcraft

I guess a benefit of doing it for yourself is that, like race mechanics,

you can fit a tire that can still be removed in one piece & without ruining your hands.

Vittoria has sensible instructions, & they should know, right?

waters60

I am curious about rolling resistance. Isn't that largely a function of the particular tire and how well it is inflated. Once the glue dries it is essentally a solid and when the tire is tightly glued to the rim there should be no extraneous compression going on?

Psimet2001 

I've never understood the hand thing. People complain about their hands hurting when removing a tubular. Just doesn't make sense to me. The only thing I can figure is that people are actually trying to use their hands alone to get a tubular off of a rim? If so that's not how it works.

Use a tire lever to open a section and then use a round bladed screwdriver long enough to stick through both sides. Stick it through and then grab both sides of the screwdriver and roll it. Tire comes off in a few moments even if welded on.

As for Vittoria? No...they don't know. It's actually been studied and the data shows they don't. Don't take my word for it though - as cyclists exist in a world where they are their own experts and never want to listen to anyone who actually knows other than a faceless brand.,....

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bw...G1yOTBta0w2Rnc

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bw...E95amZVa3ZDSUU

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bw...0pRaFJ2bFZ1NHc

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bw...WtPRFJ6YkxDbGs