Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Professional Cycling For the Fans
Reload this Page >

What's it gonna take for Sagan?

Notices
Professional Cycling For the Fans Follow the Tour de France,the Giro de Italia, the Spring Classics, or other professional cycling races? Here's your home...

What's it gonna take for Sagan?

Old 09-23-20, 04:48 PM
  #26  
one4smoke
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Nashville, TN.
Posts: 2,176

Bikes: 2020 Specialized Roubaix Comp SC - 2016 Specialized Roubaix SL4 - 2015 Giant Roam 2 Disc

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 639 Post(s)
Liked 338 Times in 224 Posts
Originally Posted by canklecat
I was a little puzzled by Sagan during this TdF. Not to take anything away from Bennett or Ewan, who simply had better tactics and kicks on some stages.

But a few times it looked to me like Sagan sat up and eased up just short of the line and let the opponent go. It's hard to read or second guess him. Maybe he knew he didn't have the kick and didn't want to waste energy, or had some other strategy. But a few times (after losing points to being relegated) it sure looked like he wasn't really trying despite being within range.
I found myself thinking the same thing, but I think the perception we have of them from video is a bit misleading. There have been a number of times in a close sprint to the line I’ve questioned the winner pulling up and celebrating right at the line where it looked as though it was way premature and could’ve cost him the win. Especially the straight on shot when they’re coming toward you. I think part of it is that perception, and part of it is these guys know exactly how to judge the speed and momentum getting to the line first in relation to where the other riders are around them. It looks as if they’re giving up too soon, but they know when the pedal stroke, aerodynamics, momentum, etc... isn’t going to make a difference anymore.
At least, that’s what I think....
one4smoke is offline  
Old 09-23-20, 04:56 PM
  #27  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 13,522

Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel

Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4559 Post(s)
Liked 2,798 Times in 1,798 Posts
Another factor that I didn't realize until I checked all the stats, Sagan was still way ahead in peloton standings (not points) over Bennett, while Bennett may have pulled off the hat trick of being both the green jersey and in the running for the Lanterne Rouge.

So Bennett was struggling just to make the cut every stage, while Sagan was choogling away like a freight train, as usual. He was a step behind where milliseconds count, and as others noted seemed to lack his usual extrasensory perception for picking the right wheel to follow. Sagan was usually very close, while also seeming to be stronger and more consistent overall.

Anyway, this was one of the most interesting and exciting TdFs I can remember.
canklecat is offline  
Old 09-25-20, 02:04 PM
  #28  
Caretaker
Heretic
 
Caretaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 2,246

Bikes: Specialized Sirrus, Giant OCR3, Giant CRS3

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2827 Post(s)
Liked 561 Times in 429 Posts
Originally Posted by canklecat
Another factor that I didn't realize until I checked all the stats, Sagan was still way ahead in peloton standings (not points) over Bennett, while Bennett may have pulled off the hat trick of being both the green jersey and in the running for the Lanterne Rouge.

So Bennett was struggling just to make the cut every stage, while Sagan was choogling away like a freight train, as usual. He was a step behind where milliseconds count, and as others noted seemed to lack his usual extrasensory perception for picking the right wheel to follow. Sagan was usually very close, while also seeming to be stronger and more consistent overall.

Anyway, this was one of the most interesting and exciting TdFs I can remember.
GC doesn't count and is irrelevant for sprinters. For the green jersey it's about picking up points on the intermediate sprints and winning or being thereabouts on the sprint stages.
Bennett wasn't 'struggling to make the cut' on every stage but he would have been conscious of the cut on mountain stages and in the ITT and would try to minimise his effort while staying inside the time limit. He was something like 4 mins inside the cut on the TT but he was saving himself for the following day's sprint in Paris and was never going to be a contender , like a lot of others, in stage 20 anyway.
Sagan wasn't 'stronger or more consistent' than Bennett they were both going for stage wins and the green jersey. Bennett won two stages to Sagan's 0 and the jersey by over 90 points. Neither was interested in GC, in fact a high GC placing would have made it more difficult for a guy like Sagan to get to get into breaks and possibly win a stage.
Just because he finished 30 mins down on some mountain stages doesn't mean he was 'struggling'.
Caretaker is offline  
Old 10-13-20, 11:49 AM
  #29  
MinnMan
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,735

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4268 Post(s)
Liked 2,938 Times in 1,812 Posts
So we have the answer at the Giro. What's it going to take?

1. A depleted field with some major teams dropping out or depleted by the temporal proximity to the Tour.

2. Attacking the breakaway, not winning a sprint.

In any event, it was a great performance.
MinnMan is online now  
Likes For MinnMan:
Old 10-13-20, 12:43 PM
  #30  
one4smoke
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Nashville, TN.
Posts: 2,176

Bikes: 2020 Specialized Roubaix Comp SC - 2016 Specialized Roubaix SL4 - 2015 Giant Roam 2 Disc

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 639 Post(s)
Liked 338 Times in 224 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan
So we have the answer at the Giro. What's it going to take?

1. A depleted field with some major teams dropping out or depleted by the temporal proximity to the Tour.

2. Attacking the breakaway, not winning a sprint.

In any event, it was a great performance.
I've often wondered why he doesn't attack more often, with the climbing ability that he has. Been waiting on a win like this from Sagan for quite awhile. Seems as if this is the answer, especially on ideal routes ...instead of conserving energy for a sprint finish.

As far as a depleted field... I really don't see how anyone that's out could've hung with Sagan today. He had 'em all covered, in the race or not. Maybe Matthews ...but I really doubt it.
one4smoke is offline  
Old 10-13-20, 12:54 PM
  #31  
one4smoke
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Nashville, TN.
Posts: 2,176

Bikes: 2020 Specialized Roubaix Comp SC - 2016 Specialized Roubaix SL4 - 2015 Giant Roam 2 Disc

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 639 Post(s)
Liked 338 Times in 224 Posts
Like these comments from VeloNews...

https://www.velonews.com/events/giro...g-covid-cloud/

Andrew Hood: It’s a great win for Sagan, who was running out of time in 2020 to see his first victory. Sagan is wildly popular in Italy, so his exploits will help ease some of the pressure on the Giro. His decision to pass up on the northern classics to race the Giro is turning out to be the right call. Paris-Roubaix and Amstel Gold Race have both been canceled. He’ll now only miss Flanders, and instead of Sagan racing for one day, we get three weeks of him. Let’s hope he keeps attacking. The Giro needs it.

James Startt: Thank you, Peter! What a brilliant ride from a brilliant champion. I have followed Sagan closely over the years and that was one of his gutsiest rides ever. He had his back against the wall. Clearly not as fast as Démare and others, it was hard to imaging how he was going to win even one stage. But Sagan wanted to honor the Giro as he lived in Italy for years. And he did just that. Today we saw classic Sagan from one of the classiest riders. COVID cannot take anything away from this!

Ben Delaney: A win is a win, right? Especially at a grand tour. I was thinking of writing something stupid like, ‘This could be the year he transitions from a sprinter into a craftier rider,’ but that is nonsense; Sagan has always been an intuitive rider who is as comfortable reading a race as he is riding a one-handed wheelie. Still, it appears his days of absolute sprint dominance are behind him, and I, for one, am happy to see the guy notch a ‘W’ today.

Jim Cotton: Without wanting to diminish the importance of the COVID news this morning, Sagan’s victory will not be overshadowed. His win was emphatic and daring, a perfect example of the Sagan that 99 perent of cycling fans love so much, and it’s a key landmark in his career. Now he has won stages at all three grand tours. The Slovak’s victory today was the perfect counterpoint to a grim start to the day in Italy.
one4smoke is offline  
Likes For one4smoke:
Old 10-14-20, 02:38 AM
  #32  
canklecat
Me duelen las nalgas
 
canklecat's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Texas
Posts: 13,522

Bikes: Centurion Ironman, Trek 5900, Univega Via Carisma, Globe Carmel

Mentioned: 199 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4559 Post(s)
Liked 2,798 Times in 1,798 Posts
Interestingly, in his October 3 column and overview of the entire Giro parcours, Caley Fretz predicted this outcome for Stage 10 -- well, maybe not predicted, but said the route suited Sagan. On paper it looks like an extended HIIT session, with just enough short, steep climbs to weed out the pure sprinters, but not flat enough after the halfway point to favor pure time trialists.
canklecat is offline  
Old 10-24-20, 07:27 AM
  #33  
one4smoke
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Nashville, TN.
Posts: 2,176

Bikes: 2020 Specialized Roubaix Comp SC - 2016 Specialized Roubaix SL4 - 2015 Giant Roam 2 Disc

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 639 Post(s)
Liked 338 Times in 224 Posts
https://observer.case.edu/peter-sagan-makes-a-comeback/
one4smoke is offline  
Old 10-24-20, 11:13 AM
  #34  
MinnMan
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,735

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4268 Post(s)
Liked 2,938 Times in 1,812 Posts
Article seems to be last week's news.
MinnMan is online now  
Old 10-24-20, 11:48 AM
  #35  
one4smoke
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2015
Location: Nashville, TN.
Posts: 2,176

Bikes: 2020 Specialized Roubaix Comp SC - 2016 Specialized Roubaix SL4 - 2015 Giant Roam 2 Disc

Mentioned: 23 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 639 Post(s)
Liked 338 Times in 224 Posts
Originally Posted by MinnMan
Article seems to be last week's news.
Content events is prior news despite article being written yesterday 10-23-2020.
Although, his overall message is Sagan isn’t done by any means.
one4smoke is offline  
Old 10-24-20, 12:00 PM
  #36  
MinnMan
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,735

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4268 Post(s)
Liked 2,938 Times in 1,812 Posts
Originally Posted by one4smoke
Content events is prior news despite article being written yesterday 10-23-2020.
Although, his overall message is Sagan isn’t done by any means.
I hope not. His charisma and popularity are good for cycling.

But this is ridiculous:
"There’s also a chance that, as he ages and loses his explosiveness, he may want to become a contender in the general classification competition."
MinnMan is online now  
Old 10-24-20, 05:27 PM
  #37  
canny
Junior Member
 
canny's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Texas
Posts: 5

Bikes: Specialized Vita Sport, currently shopping for endurance road bike

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
#2 .

And, how about a #3 : Support from his team?
canny is offline  
Old 10-25-20, 03:43 AM
  #38  
Caretaker
Heretic
 
Caretaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 2,246

Bikes: Specialized Sirrus, Giant OCR3, Giant CRS3

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2827 Post(s)
Liked 561 Times in 429 Posts
Peter Sagan is back.
He never went away.
Caretaker is offline  
Old 10-25-20, 12:37 PM
  #39  
vane171
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 490
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked 67 Times in 48 Posts
Originally Posted by canny
#2 .

And, how about a #3 : Support from his team?
I am wondering about the support he gets from team riders. From my admittedly uniformed view, it looks as if it is somewhat lacking towards the stages ends (probably OK during stages). I get the impression he doesn't have one or two strong ones who could stay with him when the action happens.
On the other hand, PS may not be the cooperating type, he strikes me as being more bent on doing his own race (don't know if that is because of my previous point of not having equal in the team or his personality). Maybe someone who follows his races more can correct my view?

Last edited by vane171; 10-25-20 at 12:45 PM.
vane171 is offline  
Old 10-25-20, 01:16 PM
  #40  
Caretaker
Heretic
 
Caretaker's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Dublin, Ireland
Posts: 2,246

Bikes: Specialized Sirrus, Giant OCR3, Giant CRS3

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2827 Post(s)
Liked 561 Times in 429 Posts
Sagan isn't a straight sprinter like Cavandish, Greipel, or Bennett, he has always played the peloton drifting up to the front at the right moment and riding in the slipstream of other teams before jumping out to win the sprint.I
Sure he needs his team but his great assets have been his bike handling, his power and tactical sense. At the moment his power isn't what it was and this has affected his confidence IMO.
Caretaker is offline  
Likes For Caretaker:
Old 10-25-20, 01:21 PM
  #41  
MinnMan
Senior Member
 
MinnMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 5,735

Bikes: 2022 Salsa Beargrease Carbon Deore 11, 2020 Salsa Warbird GRX 600, 2020 Canyon Ultimate CF SLX disc 9.0 Di2, 2020 Catrike Eola, 2016 Masi cxgr, 2011, Felt F3 Ltd, 2010 Trek 2.1, 2009 KHS Flite 220

Mentioned: 19 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4268 Post(s)
Liked 2,938 Times in 1,812 Posts
Originally Posted by Caretaker
Sagan isn't a straight sprinter like Cavandish, Greipel, or Bennett, he has always played the peloton drifting up to the front at the right moment and riding in the slipstream of other teams before jumping out to win the sprint.I
Sure he needs his team but his great assets have been his bike handling, his power and tactical sense. At the moment his power isn't what it was and this has affected his confidence IMO.
This is a good point. I can't recall Sagan ever approaching a sprint with a lead out from his team. He just appeared in the right place and right time and did it himself.

Also, Sagan has always been more than a sprinter. Just go back and look at Paris Roubaix 2018.

But he's never been and will never be a GC rider
MinnMan is online now  
Old 10-25-20, 03:43 PM
  #42  
2cam16
Senior Member
 
2cam16's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: San Mateo,Ca.
Posts: 4,350

Bikes: TRIMMED DOWN THE HERD

Mentioned: 46 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1089 Post(s)
Liked 928 Times in 594 Posts
Originally Posted by vane171
I am wondering about the support he gets from team riders. From my admittedly uniformed view, it looks as if it is somewhat lacking towards the stages ends (probably OK during stages). I get the impression he doesn't have one or two strong ones who could stay with him when the action happens.
On the other hand, PS may not be the cooperating type, he strikes me as being more bent on doing his own race (don't know if that is because of my previous point of not having equal in the team or his personality). Maybe someone who follows his races more can correct my view?
This reminds me of Chris Horner's analysis of a stage or two ago. From the sound of it he wasn't getting any help nor support and apparently Peter showed some disappointment at them. Check his YouTube channel for that episode.
2cam16 is offline  
Old 10-25-20, 09:29 PM
  #43  
vane171
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Posts: 490
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 252 Post(s)
Liked 67 Times in 48 Posts
Originally Posted by 2cam16
This reminds me of Chris Horner's analysis of a stage or two ago. From the sound of it he wasn't getting any help nor support and apparently Peter showed some disappointment at them. Check his YouTube channel for that episode.
He definitely doesn't have somebody like Froome has/had Richie Porte (I think, also I believe there was one other strong teammate like that) who showed that if Froome sometimes couldn't take even the drafting behind them, then being free, they would themselves make it to a place on podium or even win the stage. That's the kind of sidekicks that Sagan doesn't have in his team. Or ones that could provide the final lead out.

I recall a race or two (can't tell which ones since I am not that serious fan of the racing scene) when he had 'lead out' in the last several kilometers but even then, it didn't last into the final kilometer before the finish line. As had been said, he has to use other riders for a lead out who have their own teammates leading them out. But that may be just as good as having his own team leading him out, after all, do or even could all sprinters that make it in front of the peloton near the finish have their own lead out that stays with them until the final sprint starts? It would be perhaps overcrowded, often the road is not wide enough for everybody or there is a turn in the road that effectively narrows the available space.

I remember that Roubaix 2018 race, that was amazing. Also Sagan used to be said not being good in hills but I remember him wining a race or a stage that finished in pretty hard shorter, but still serious hill, even when he was pretty well written off by the race commentary before getting to that hill. As to GC contending..., never say never , I doubt with Bora but maybe if he changed team? Decidedly he turned up to be much more universal rider than years ago when he was being completely discounted for hills.
vane171 is offline  
Likes For vane171:

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.