furiousferret

When training to focus on accelerations (i.e. not sprinting), do you just work on intervals for speed and watts or is there benefit on high cadence and watts as well?

I ask because my most competitive was when was able to spin up to a very high cadence (120+) in lieu of shifting to handle accelerations. I don't know if that was because I was strong, but it felt like spinning faster to catch up was a faster action than shifting which saved milliseconds and inches which translated to an easier effort to close the gap. Amazingly, I haven't found much on this and if its out there its lost in the 'spinning' vs 'mashing' debate (which this is not).

Fast forward to present and after just focusing on raw power my 'snap cadence' has suffered along with my ability to close fast. All my accelerations have been done via shifting. I do not think I can break 110 rpm unless its a really low wattage (which doesn't count). To alleviate that, my plan is to do this twice a week:

3 Sets of
20 Seconds @110-150 rpm over 250 watts (this will change as I get faster)
40 Seconds Rest

Ultimately, my goal is to be able to spin at 150 rpm for 20 seconds. There isn't really a reason I'd need to, but that means 120 rpm should be 'comfortable'.

Thoughts?

mattm

spinning up is more efficient, so yeah it makes sense to train this.

ideally though I think the answer is “both” - be able to spin when needed, mash when needed.

gsteinb

train for both, though due to the track stuff and years of fixed gears I tend to spin up in races. Rarely get out of the saddle.

I can get over 200 rpms, which has no pratcical application on the road.

TMonk

Same as Gary here, not sure if I could hit 200 tho

Enthalpic

Spinning up was a lot more important when drivetrains sucked (imagine friction downtube shifters compared to modern Di2). Shifting up is much more of a reasonable option now.

Spinning up is more responsive but I would bet money it is technically less efficient.

rubiksoval

If you have wko (or maybe some other programs, too), you can do the quadrant analysis stuff which can be insightful.

For me, becoming more efficient at spinning big watts has made a massive difference in my racing.

Some big races I'd get halfway through the race and could barely stand up because I was so exhausted from standing and sprinting out of the turns. In the last two years I've spent a lot of time over the winter (and some in the summers, too), working on seated accelerations with higher cadence. It's been such a boon. My legs are so much better at the end of races (crits, especially).

It's been the difference between getting dropped halfway in a PRT crit to finishing in the top 20. There are times when it's necessary to just get out of the saddle and close a gap as quickly as possible, but overall I've found being able to lay down some power with less torque has really helped. To the point where I now do FRC workouts completely seated and focused on spinning more.

I will, say, however, that I personally think "spinning" drills and the like are a waste of time and I'd never just go out and spin high rpms for the sake of high rpms. All of my higher cadence work is done with higher watts (vo2/FRC/etc); extremely specific to race situations.

gsteinb

^good post^

caloso

What rubiksoval said.

Enthalpic

If you invoke seated versus standing everything changes.

Ideally I would like to know more about how the best handle seated only situations.

furiousferret

Thanks for the info guys, you're helping put me on the right track!

Thanks, this really helps out a lot. I actually got WKO based off this (was planning but was hoping for another discount code in my email).

aaronmcd

Oh man, if left to my own tooling around I'd tool around under 90. If left to my own to get best threshold power id be around 105. Cuz my legs get tired at less. In races when I gotta accelerate I have no clue what I do really I just go. My gut tells me I don't shift till **** settles. My guess is ill go up to 130 or so in a random acceleration. Its just easier to spin super fast for a bit.

I agree its more responsive to spin more. Easier to suddenly spin faster than to suddenly apply monster force.

I disagree that spinning drills are useless. I think they help me get used to spinning. Not like actual training, more like priming my automatic response. I don't do it much anymore cuz it seems like racing kinda forces it. But you don't race much or aren't racing into shape I think it could help to get the legs used to that stuff.

topflightpro

I tend to be a seated guy, so I spend a lot of time working on being able to spin up, and lately, I've been working on spinning up big gears while seated - I've been concentrating on track racing the past year and a half. And like Gary, I can spin over 200 rpms.

furiousferret

Yesterday I did my first drills, working from home I was able to do each set on an individual ride (brunch, lunch, post lunch rides). While I didn't get my cadence near where I wanted (probably topping out around 125) I was hitting some good wattage for my perceived effort. My legs were tired though so I should be able to hit 135 this weekend. It felt like my efforts were 200 watts average but it was double that.

Ttoc6

Get some rollers. It'll really show where your weakness in spinning lies. I know I top out* around 140RPM, but I rarely go that high in races because I'm a bad sprinter who has overgeared every sprint I've ever been in.

*top out as in I start bouncing too much to be comfortable on the rollers. I'm sure I can go higher than that, and pretty sure I have when I used to race track.

carpediemracing 

For me I prefer the muscle method, so a sharp downstroke in a larger gear.

If I spin up it loads my typically stressed aerobic system and blows me up. Spinning correlates at some level to heart rate; spinning really fast takes energy. As an extreme example, doing 200+ rpm is extremely taxing, even with virtually zero resistance on the pedals. I think it was Carmichael that found that aerobic efficiency drops once you go above 120 rpm, meaning the expense of spinning starts to weigh in pretty heavily compared to power output.

When I'm fit I can spin more, but still do sharp downstrokes to close gaps.

I try to take it easy at the beginning of races. My ideal race, if I'm fit, is to spin 100-110 rpm for the first 30 min of the race, virtually no hard efforts, then start getting used to pushing a bit, then in the last lap or two alternately coast/soft-pedal or do 70-90 rpm in bigger gears. Just before the sprint I'll be shifting into slightly lower gears, knowing that I want to jump at 100-110 rpm. I want to have my muscles sort of rested so I try to spin and transfer load to my aerobic system. Sprinting is anaerobic for me anyway so as long as my muscles are okay (not cramping, not extremely fatigued) I'll be able to go for a bit even if I hold my breath.

I got to the last lap of one somewhat important race and just then discovered that I'd been in my small ring the entire race. It was a 45T to be fair, but still, small ring. I put it in the big ring but

I've had a bar mounted rear shifter on my bike since... 1985? Maybe 1984. I've always used it to adjust rpm at a given speed, shifting up and down just to check rpm/legs. It was one of my advantages in the old days, shifting during the sprint. Another was that I started using aero wheels in the the late 80s and regularly used a rear disk, Zipp 440s (pre-404 58mm rims), and my favorites, the ultralight 340s (pre-303?). Finally I tried to use low inertia stuff, including the aforementioned disk wheel (270g rim, no metal in the "disk" part), the 340s, the 38g (for the pair!) titanium Aerolite pedals (or about 70g for the steel ones), and some very lightweight wood sole shoes (nylon strap attached when I went to clipless/Aerolite). Made for good sharp accelerations.

Hm. Makes me want to try and make the Aerolites work again. I have one new pair of pedals (a pro friend won them in a crit and gave them to me) plus about 6 sets of my own pedals, and maybe 3 years worth of cleats. And some ultra light carbon/kevlar Aerolite shoes.