🚴 Why MUPs Fail
#51
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Interesting that you should mention "traffic jam", because I've never once encountered it among bikes. It only gets jammed when pedestrians move over and encroach onto the bike designated section.
Of course all of this implies that there is a marked separation between the two. If its just a trail or path WITHOUT MARKINGS, then there no expectation of exclusivity.
Of course all of this implies that there is a marked separation between the two. If its just a trail or path WITHOUT MARKINGS, then there no expectation of exclusivity.
I've been in traffic jams caused by people in motor vehicles, traffic jams caused by people on bicycles, and traffic jams caused by people on foot.
-mr. bill
#52
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Traffic jams miles long where you move 10 feet in 30 minutes. Street events, fairs, parades etc. where there are literally wall to wall people. But I've never been in a cycling event with so many cyclist that I couldn't move around freely anytime I wanted.
#54
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I don't disagree, certainly when I'm on the path I pass as widely left as I can. When I go on the Minuteman, I go with the expectation of going more slowly than on the road and, as I said, I always slow down behind a slow user as opposed going on the center line if there is someone else coming toward me, I don't want to scare anyone with close passing and certainly don't want to make anyone crash.
UniChris summed it up very nicely, and appreciate that, the conundrum being that there is a segment of users who are told where they are is the wrong place to ride. I got flipped off in Lexington on Mass Ave because I was on the road, with the driver telling me to get on the bike trail (this was on a busy weekend day), but riding at the pace of my particular workout would have been impossible on the bike path (constant slowing is not really a productive workout). So that's what I was referring to as a conundrum where motorists don't want cyclists on the road and MUPs aren't a great place if someone really wants to get a workout. Obviously the roads are more than wide open and motorists aren't always yelling at cyclists to get off the roads, but the sentiment is out there.
UniChris summed it up very nicely, and appreciate that, the conundrum being that there is a segment of users who are told where they are is the wrong place to ride. I got flipped off in Lexington on Mass Ave because I was on the road, with the driver telling me to get on the bike trail (this was on a busy weekend day), but riding at the pace of my particular workout would have been impossible on the bike path (constant slowing is not really a productive workout). So that's what I was referring to as a conundrum where motorists don't want cyclists on the road and MUPs aren't a great place if someone really wants to get a workout. Obviously the roads are more than wide open and motorists aren't always yelling at cyclists to get off the roads, but the sentiment is out there.
You want a stretch of the Minuteman where you can really open it up? Go to the Bedford end. There's about 3 miles down there where it's nearly nothing but cyclists until about 1/4 mile from the old station.
As for getting flipped off on Mass. Ave., don't take it personally, there's jerks everywhere. But if I have a choice between riding on Mass. Ave, vs. the Minuteman, I'm going faster on the Minuteman any day I think you're just as likely to hit a pedestrian on that part of Mass. Ave as you are on the Minuteman, plus cars, car doors, etc.
#55
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Well, in Toronto we have Bike-to-Work day, Coldest-Ride-of-the-Year, and Becel Ride-for-Heart. All are on city streets and a couple of highways. I've never experienced any traffic jams on those either.
But when there are pedestrians involved, yeah there are traffic jams. That's because bikes are for getting somewhere. Pedestrians are already there.
But when there are pedestrians involved, yeah there are traffic jams. That's because bikes are for getting somewhere. Pedestrians are already there.
#56
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Well, in Toronto we have Bike-to-Work day, Coldest-Ride-of-the-Year, and Becel Ride-for-Heart. All are on city streets and a couple of highways. I've never experienced any traffic jams on those either.
But when there are pedestrians involved, yeah there are traffic jams. That's because bikes are for getting somewhere. Pedestrians are already there.
But when there are pedestrians involved, yeah there are traffic jams. That's because bikes are for getting somewhere. Pedestrians are already there.
My feet were made for walkin'.
-mr. bill
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I doubt they would answer "what tractor?" And that is sometimes the answer I do get when I ask about the cyclists... "what cyclist... Oh."
#58
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What do drivers do when they've reached their destination? Get out and walk - become pedestrians. If they still need to get where they're going, it's usually called the last mile.
#59
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Keep divying up who deserves transportation resources and attempting to sort who is most worthy of the “serious” moniker, whether “serious” is how far you ride, how fast you ride, or what your destinatiion is.
The more “we” try to say just WHO is MUP-worthy, just WHO is road-worthy, the more the “DOMINANT DEFAULT” wins.
And the more SOMEONE gets to yell:
Get off my road!
Get off my MUP!
With or without a finger.
(BTW, there are bicycle traffic jams in Vancouver and Montreal. You might want to learn what they are doing right, or maybe wrong?)
-mr. bill
Last edited by mr_bill; 07-25-18 at 06:03 PM.
#60
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I do most of my riding on MUPs. I am not so egotistical that I think EVERYONE else should get out of my way.
#61
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Interesting that you should mention "traffic jam", because I've never once encountered it among bikes. It only gets jammed when pedestrians move over and encroach onto the bike designated section.
Of course all of this implies that there is a marked separation between the two. If its just a trail or path WITHOUT MARKINGS, then there no expectation of exclusivity.
Of course all of this implies that there is a marked separation between the two. If its just a trail or path WITHOUT MARKINGS, then there no expectation of exclusivity.
Well, it appears to be an old rail line that essentially threads between fenced off parking lots. No one would likely want to walk it because there's nothing pleasant about it, and it just parallels streets with perfectly good sidewalks. On the other hand, I found it was a terrible ride for bicycles because of the way it crossed two main thoroughfares about 50 feet away from the intersection--these crossings were placed just about perfectly to get hit by a turning car who wouldn't be looking for a cyclist at that location. Having made those crossings because I didn't want to check a map to figure out the parallel streets, I can say with confidence I would never choose to do so again.
Now I could be wrong, maybe there are times when people are using this path a lot, but this was late morning Saturday, which is usually a pretty busy time on an urban MUP, and I may have seen two other riders in a few miles.
Failure of a MUP doesn't occur because too many people are using it, it occurs when nobody wants to use it. I rode on a fairly crowded Minuteman later that same day, and I was quite happy to slow down where the path goes through downtown Arlington and Lexington, and ride like a bat out of hell on other sections.
#65
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#66
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How is it that the expectation of riding normally in the portion of the MUP designated and marked for bikes considered "reckless cycling"? With that understanding (yield priority to pedestrians) the MUP are no more than a sidewalk as the exact same legal prioritization applies.
In fact, you have just proven my original point: that MUPs fail. Despite the apportioned designation for cycling, they are no more than highfalutin sidewalks (that don't prohibit bikes), with a politically correct trendy title.
In fact, you have just proven my original point: that MUPs fail. Despite the apportioned designation for cycling, they are no more than highfalutin sidewalks (that don't prohibit bikes), with a politically correct trendy title.
#67
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Two main reasons come to my mind as to why a roadway or path doesn't work well for travelers: poor design, and/or user error.
On MUPs, I normally see a variety of people who are utterly, blissfully, even recklessly, unaware that others are attempting legitimate use of that same stretch of path. A good number of pedestrians act as though nobody else is going to come along at greater than walking speed, or they'll take up the full width of the path and effectively block use by anyone else. A good number of riders of other modes of transportation (bikes, boards) will also meander around on the path in a manner oblivious to others coming along at different speeds.
Above and beyond whatever design characteristics contribute, such as when they cross or come near roadways with motorized vehicles, or cross zones with large numbers of pedestrians.
The "user error" issue can be easily solved, one participant at a time. Of course, that'd take a bit of thinking, a bit of inconvenience, and a bit of sharing on the part of all who use such paths. In my experience, while the great percentage of all who use such paths are pretty good about it, there's a percentage who likely never will be.
And so, for me, when I use the local MUPs I tend to go along at a fairly safe speed differential, tend to stay more-or-less glued to the RH side of the path (until it's time to pass someone), and tend to telegraph my intended moves far in advance. It's been decades since I've had a mishap on a MUP ... that being an incident in which a pedestrian was oblivious to the fact of crossing a MUP with oncoming traffic flow. (I was the nearest "traffic flow" ... and went down because of it.)
All things considered, I prefer MUPs to motor vehicle roadways. I'd rather tangle with a hesitant pedestrian than a car with blind spots that's ~4K pounds heavier than I.
On MUPs, I normally see a variety of people who are utterly, blissfully, even recklessly, unaware that others are attempting legitimate use of that same stretch of path. A good number of pedestrians act as though nobody else is going to come along at greater than walking speed, or they'll take up the full width of the path and effectively block use by anyone else. A good number of riders of other modes of transportation (bikes, boards) will also meander around on the path in a manner oblivious to others coming along at different speeds.
Above and beyond whatever design characteristics contribute, such as when they cross or come near roadways with motorized vehicles, or cross zones with large numbers of pedestrians.
The "user error" issue can be easily solved, one participant at a time. Of course, that'd take a bit of thinking, a bit of inconvenience, and a bit of sharing on the part of all who use such paths. In my experience, while the great percentage of all who use such paths are pretty good about it, there's a percentage who likely never will be.
And so, for me, when I use the local MUPs I tend to go along at a fairly safe speed differential, tend to stay more-or-less glued to the RH side of the path (until it's time to pass someone), and tend to telegraph my intended moves far in advance. It's been decades since I've had a mishap on a MUP ... that being an incident in which a pedestrian was oblivious to the fact of crossing a MUP with oncoming traffic flow. (I was the nearest "traffic flow" ... and went down because of it.)
All things considered, I prefer MUPs to motor vehicle roadways. I'd rather tangle with a hesitant pedestrian than a car with blind spots that's ~4K pounds heavier than I.
#68
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Maybe its that CA thing and So CA attitude. Or maybe you just are overcrowded. Lots of places have MUP's that work, MA for one. Walkers right, bikes pass on the left, a little courtesy, passing left shout or bell works fine. Just what you have pedaled is not how it is everywhere.
I'm thinking of getting a bakfiet and selling flowers from it part time.
I'll be known as the pedaling petal peddler.
-mr. bill
#69
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My 20.6 km, 1hr 15min MUP route to downtown Toronto is 16.2 km in 1hr using streets some with bike lanes.
Secondly, the hills on the city streets aren't as dramatic as the hills on the MUPs.
Thirdly, according to my cycling app calories burned using the MUP route is 433.9 vs 294.6 through city streets.
Secondly, the hills on the city streets aren't as dramatic as the hills on the MUPs.
Thirdly, according to my cycling app calories burned using the MUP route is 433.9 vs 294.6 through city streets.
#70
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Same here, the two miles outside a town are usually populated with joggers, families, dog walkers etc. Takes about six minutes to get through this courteously then hammer droppin time to the next town. Love our rails to trails program.
#71
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Two main reasons come to my mind as to why a roadway or path doesn't work well for travelers: poor design, and/or user error.
On MUPs, I normally see a variety of people who are utterly, blissfully, even recklessly, unaware that others are attempting legitimate use of that same stretch of path. A good number of pedestrians act as though nobody else is going to come along at greater than walking speed, or they'll take up the full width of the path and effectively block use by anyone else. A good number of riders of other modes of transportation (bikes, boards) will also meander around on the path in a manner oblivious to others coming along at different speeds.
Above and beyond whatever design characteristics contribute, such as when they cross or come near roadways with motorized vehicles, or cross zones with large numbers of pedestrians.
The "user error" issue can be easily solved, one participant at a time. Of course, that'd take a bit of thinking, a bit of inconvenience, and a bit of sharing on the part of all who use such paths. In my experience, while the great percentage of all who use such paths are pretty good about it, there's a percentage who likely never will be.
And so, for me, when I use the local MUPs I tend to go along at a fairly safe speed differential, tend to stay more-or-less glued to the RH side of the path (until it's time to pass someone), and tend to telegraph my intended moves far in advance. It's been decades since I've had a mishap on a MUP ... that being an incident in which a pedestrian was oblivious to the fact of crossing a MUP with oncoming traffic flow. (I was the nearest "traffic flow" ... and went down because of it.)
All things considered, I prefer MUPs to motor vehicle roadways. I'd rather tangle with a hesitant pedestrian than a car with blind spots that's ~4K pounds heavier than I.
On MUPs, I normally see a variety of people who are utterly, blissfully, even recklessly, unaware that others are attempting legitimate use of that same stretch of path. A good number of pedestrians act as though nobody else is going to come along at greater than walking speed, or they'll take up the full width of the path and effectively block use by anyone else. A good number of riders of other modes of transportation (bikes, boards) will also meander around on the path in a manner oblivious to others coming along at different speeds.
Above and beyond whatever design characteristics contribute, such as when they cross or come near roadways with motorized vehicles, or cross zones with large numbers of pedestrians.
The "user error" issue can be easily solved, one participant at a time. Of course, that'd take a bit of thinking, a bit of inconvenience, and a bit of sharing on the part of all who use such paths. In my experience, while the great percentage of all who use such paths are pretty good about it, there's a percentage who likely never will be.
And so, for me, when I use the local MUPs I tend to go along at a fairly safe speed differential, tend to stay more-or-less glued to the RH side of the path (until it's time to pass someone), and tend to telegraph my intended moves far in advance. It's been decades since I've had a mishap on a MUP ... that being an incident in which a pedestrian was oblivious to the fact of crossing a MUP with oncoming traffic flow. (I was the nearest "traffic flow" ... and went down because of it.)
All things considered, I prefer MUPs to motor vehicle roadways. I'd rather tangle with a hesitant pedestrian than a car with blind spots that's ~4K pounds heavier than I.
That's my take. Encountering oblivious users is part of it. You nailed it when you mentioned the speed differential. I bring it down to a bare minimum when I pass any other user. Thankfully we have really long MUPs where we can get away from most other users.
#72
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I have to preface this by saying I don't train on any bike paths, it isn't practical, but this kind of statement kind of irks me because it's a bit derisive to those who like to train to get faster/fitter. I often see such riders referred to as "racer boys" "lance wannabes" etc. around these forums. I also have to wonder if people are really riding that fast or if it's just fast relative to those on the bike path. Every time I do venture on the bike path, I can easily say that even at the moderate pace I try to stick to when i go on the paths, I am always the passer and never the passee, and I'm quite mediocre. I never close pass (and always slow down rather than go down the middle if someone is approaching from the opposite lane), so I don't know if my pace bothers anyone. But I know motorists think all cyclists belong on paths, and if slower MUP users think faster cyclists don't belong there either, it presents a conundrum. Where the heck should people train? At home on the trainer? I know this is a bit extreme, but I think it does highlight some the issues that more fitness/performance oriented cyclists might face.
The reality is that multi-use paths have to cater to the lowest common denominator, but I do think some folks, especially faster folks, are definitely made to feel less welcome.
The reality is that multi-use paths have to cater to the lowest common denominator, but I do think some folks, especially faster folks, are definitely made to feel less welcome.
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The value of your life doesn't change based on the way you travel. - Dawn Schellenberg (SDOT)
The value of your life doesn't change based on the way you travel. - Dawn Schellenberg (SDOT)
#73
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Two main reasons come to my mind as to why a roadway or path doesn't work well for travelers: poor design, and/or user error.
On MUPs, I normally see a variety of people who are utterly, blissfully, even recklessly, unaware that others are attempting legitimate use of that same stretch of path. A good number of pedestrians act as though nobody else is going to come along at greater than walking speed, or they'll take up the full width of the path and effectively block use by anyone else. A good number of riders of other modes of transportation (bikes, boards) will also meander around on the path in a manner oblivious to others coming along at different speeds.
Above and beyond whatever design characteristics contribute, such as when they cross or come near roadways with motorized vehicles, or cross zones with large numbers of pedestrians.
The "user error" issue can be easily solved, one participant at a time. Of course, that'd take a bit of thinking, a bit of inconvenience, and a bit of sharing on the part of all who use such paths. In my experience, while the great percentage of all who use such paths are pretty good about it, there's a percentage who likely never will be.
And so, for me, when I use the local MUPs I tend to go along at a fairly safe speed differential, tend to stay more-or-less glued to the RH side of the path (until it's time to pass someone), and tend to telegraph my intended moves far in advance. It's been decades since I've had a mishap on a MUP ... that being an incident in which a pedestrian was oblivious to the fact of crossing a MUP with oncoming traffic flow. (I was the nearest "traffic flow" ... and went down because of it.)
All things considered, I prefer MUPs to motor vehicle roadways. I'd rather tangle with a hesitant pedestrian than a car with blind spots that's ~4K pounds heavier than I.
On MUPs, I normally see a variety of people who are utterly, blissfully, even recklessly, unaware that others are attempting legitimate use of that same stretch of path. A good number of pedestrians act as though nobody else is going to come along at greater than walking speed, or they'll take up the full width of the path and effectively block use by anyone else. A good number of riders of other modes of transportation (bikes, boards) will also meander around on the path in a manner oblivious to others coming along at different speeds.
Above and beyond whatever design characteristics contribute, such as when they cross or come near roadways with motorized vehicles, or cross zones with large numbers of pedestrians.
The "user error" issue can be easily solved, one participant at a time. Of course, that'd take a bit of thinking, a bit of inconvenience, and a bit of sharing on the part of all who use such paths. In my experience, while the great percentage of all who use such paths are pretty good about it, there's a percentage who likely never will be.
And so, for me, when I use the local MUPs I tend to go along at a fairly safe speed differential, tend to stay more-or-less glued to the RH side of the path (until it's time to pass someone), and tend to telegraph my intended moves far in advance. It's been decades since I've had a mishap on a MUP ... that being an incident in which a pedestrian was oblivious to the fact of crossing a MUP with oncoming traffic flow. (I was the nearest "traffic flow" ... and went down because of it.)
All things considered, I prefer MUPs to motor vehicle roadways. I'd rather tangle with a hesitant pedestrian than a car with blind spots that's ~4K pounds heavier than I.
#74
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Man, let it go! If you don't like MUPs, stay away from them. Your insistence on bending folks to your own opinion is getting rather boring.
#75
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Generally, I see this much more on dedicated bike lanes on streets than I do on MUPs. Pedestrians on streets are so fixated on avoiding cars that they don't take bikes into account. And if you're saying pedestrians are going to act the same way that they do on a dedicated bike path when they're on a MUP, how is that an argument for dedicated bike lanes?