Rubble

Maybe but it is effective. One cop told the group he could only give a ticket if they had their driver's license with them. None did (or maybe they didn't want the ticket). In one group there was a lawyer who started to speak up aggressively. He started getting too loud and in the face of the cop. He went on and on about the sitting, the reckless charge, how did he know which rider he clocked, etc. The cop very nicely said "you may be correct, would you like to go to the station where you'll get the opportunity to discuss this with a judge?" He shut up, with prodding from his buddies, and sat down.

I don't have much empathy for them. It's a busy trail on weekends. They should be on the road that parallels it half a mile away. It's a newish road, wonderful bike lane and little traffic.

Bang0Bang00

Jerks should be called out more often. Maybe they don't think they're acting like jerks.

Maelochs

interesting. This is like judges who realize that ordinary sentencing options are often ineffective and makeup weird sentences and dare the convicts to appeal.

I it unconstitutional? hard to say. "Cruel" no, but unusual ... but in the "cruel and unusual" sense? here is a situation where something should be done but none of the readily available options make sense.

A cop could bring them all in---take up lot o resources and then have a nightmare in court trying to prove who was speeding----obviously they all were but trying to prove that ....... There is no law requiring a person to have ID, just to give a valid name .... as far as i know ... but A cop probably needs more than that to write a ticket, and gain, tax dollars down the tubes when they guys fight it.

But still ... we want our MUPs to be safe from idiots or safe for idiots, right? So ... how do we do it? A little creative policing can be a good thing. In this case, pretty obviously Everyone was breaking the law (or the fast ones would have dropped or hit the slow ones) and Nobody should be allowed to break the law ,, ... and also endanger all the law-abiding people using the MUP properly.

There are times a cop (a Good cop) has to use a lot of judgment to properly "protect and serve." In this case ... maybe he had some small positive effect? Maybe the group will be a bit less likely to ride there, to avoid further embarrassment? Who knows.

if the cop had tried to search the riders or something ... but really, he nailed them, they knew it, and that is why even the lawyer shut up---or his friends shut him up.

storckm

This punishment sounds like a good idea to me. Nothing permanent or even costly (except for a little time), but something to make the cyclists think--at least we would hope so. When I first started riding to work around here, I would take a path for much of the way. One afternoon I came within an inch or two of a college student running with his track team. I swerved, and he jumped out of the way. I met him later, and he apologized for being on the wrong side of the path. I suppose he was, but it was still foolish of me, and I'm lucky that no one was injured. That is one of the reasons I usually leave the paths for slow rides with the family and do my commuting on the road.

downhillmaster

jefnvk

I don't have much empathy, but at least here, the punishment would not be commensurate with the crime, and I'm a huge fan of justice and criminal reform. It'd bar me from working anything like the job I have currently in the auto world. Screws over anyone with a CDL. Couple months of no driving a car by default. Even revokes you of a concealed pistol license for eight years (not to get political, just pointing out the far reach).

To be honest, there aren't many misdemeanors I'd rather be convicted of less than reckless driving. I also suspect as such anyone who actually stood up to such a power hungry officer would easily win their case in court, or at least have it dropped to some civil infraction about breaking park rules, wasting court resources. It is a rather significant offense here.

rumrunn6

that's hysterical

Bang0Bang00

In parenting, this is called "time out."

Maelochs

I am confused. The punishment of sitting is too harsh? or the punishment of a ticket for reckless driving.

if a large group of people are vastly exceeding the speed limit and creating a hazard, that is certainly reckless driving. if they did ti in cars, no one would think twice. On bikes, they can still kill people easily (There have been three cases in Britain in the past year where some idiot on a brakeless fixie killed a pedestrian. A bike can easily kill a pedestrian.)

So .... it is hard to ticket people on an MUP because they are not legally required to carry ID ... we just let them run amok? If your spouse got hit we might hear a different tune.

Basically, if we as cyclists want the right and privilege to ride on the roads, we need to obey the laws. What's wrong with that? And in this case, the cop is actually giving everyone a huge break. he could say that since they were riding as a group and not colliding, they were obviously riding at eh same speed---it's not like if two guys are drag-racing on the street and the cop radars one at 130 mph the other guy can claim he wasn't speeding.

That's where I think you and I differ---I see this a a large and dangerous group of criminals endangering lives on a public thoroughfare, nit a bunch of fellow cyclists. And if I were riding with that group, I would shut up and take my"time out" because I was Guilty .....

Seriously ... if they had hit a mother pushing a baby in a stroller, would we be having this conversation about the poor beleaguered cyclists innocently speeding at twice the posted limit? Should we let them go until someone is killed?
Power-Hungry officer??? Really?

I have seen cops lie in court to convict people, I have seen cops give illegal orders enforced with the threat of false arrest. This was a cop using his power Wisely if you ask me. I guess you don't know what it is like to be slung over the hood of a police car for the crime of not doing anything when cops were bored or upset about other things. i guess you haven't actually met too many "power-hungry" cops who were out to get you.

I do think anyone ticketed for reckless endangerment would be able to plead down---but if it went to a judge, not so sure.doing 25 mph among people who are doing 5 mph ... Seriously think it through.

if this had been a pack of motorcyclists running through a crowd on an MUP at 25 mph how would you feel?

That pack of wannabe racers Was driving to endanger by the intent and letter of the statute in most states. I'd say they got off easy and were treated fairly, seeing as they were a group of criminals (Strava data is sometimes admissible in court too. I;'d love it if the DA subpoenaed all their Stravas and showed not only were they speeding, they all had KOMs through there, and were bragging about how much they were speeding.))

As far as wwasting resources .... it would have taken a lot more tax dolla5rs to get a copupe vansand a biunch of officers down there to arrest everyone, transport them to jail, hold them until Monday morning for their arraignments ... and then to prepare all the indvidual cases against them. Would that be better?

I confess i find it hard to take the sides of the criminals in this case ...

By the way, in terms of justice reform .... I have been Convicted of crimes based entirely on false testimony and illegal police actions. I have a good friend (unrelated case, different state) who was similarly served. You have no idea how much i care about cops not breaking the law, but i'd say, unless you have similar experiences, your care is more academic. i Know people are in jail on false charges, Not because I saw it on a TV cop show, but because I have seen it in court.

Yet I also understand how much we need cops (which is sad, but ... ) Having been the victim of a few crimes (car stolen, robbed at gunpoint, stuff stolen form my home) I know that there are criminals out there, and that the only reason I can leave my car in my driveway overnight is ... cops. The only reason my wife can go outside alone at night is cops. I have lived in neighborhoods where the cops pretty much didn't bother answering calls .... not where I prefer to live.

Bad cops are Criminals, straight up. Power-hungry cops, cops who took the job to be bullies or compensate for perceived weakness or to have freedom to act out their macho fantasies ... I have met those cops and sometimes suffered at their hands. They are Criminals, regardless of the clothes they wear or the job titles they claim. But Most cops in my experience are not jerks. And sometimes a cop can cut people a break ... like in this case, where just locking up all those cyclists for reckless endangerment, having the arrest on their records, making them pay for attorneys, making them sit in jail for two days awaiting Monday morning arraignment .... and let's not forget, we Know they were guilty .... to me, making them all sit for 45 minutes was a wise and judicious use of police power. Think of it as a small form of community service.

jefnvk ... if You were riding down a crowded MUP at 25 mph, weaving through pedestrians while shouting "Strava segment, look out!" would you deserve Some penalty? why didn't these guys?

f i misunderstood your post, I apologize .... but I have a hard time taking the sides of criminals when the cops did nothing more offensive than make the criminals stop breaking the law for a short while. Having been manhandled, punched, stomped, and choked by law enforcement on at best questionable and in some cases clearly illegal circumstances .... not sure a "time-out" could incite me to outrage.

jefnvk

@Maelochs - way too long to quote and argue point by point, but general rebuttals:

If a cop is giving you a choice of a rather serious misdemeanor or having a "time out" sitting on the ground for 45 min, yes, that cop is power hungry. Cops jobs are to cite or arrest, not dole out their own punishment. That is on the court system. There is no provision in the law for a misdemeanor to be averted by sitting in the grass because the cop decided to do so. By giving you the choice, they are more or less saying they've got nothing to stand on, that the case would be tossed out the second it got to the prosecutor.

There is a better option: give them all speeding tickets. Couple hundred bucks will teach them a lesson. One does not need to carry an ID, but one can be ticketed without even possessing a drivers license, and the cop is well within his rights to hold you there until your identity is verified.

Yes, if my wife were killed by anyone for any reason, I'd probably want that person hung in the town park, even if Michigan doesn't even allow the death penalty. There is a very good reason we detatch emotionally involved people from the punishment decision making process, it is a silly argument to just toss out "yeah, but what if that were your loved one". What if it were your spouse on the group ride, who is now facing the inability to work in the only career they've known as a transit driver because they were going 3mph over the speed limit in a park?

And finally, if the cyclists are truly that big of a danger to treat them the same as a punishment generally reserved for incredibly serious automotive recklessness, maybe there is a point to requiring cyclists carry insurance.

burnthesheep

I'm starting to see "traffic calming" popup on greenways now, after posting this even. The little plastic poles between the lanes. Wouldn't be surprised to see speed humps or something every so far someday on some of them.

I think the truth some people need to hear is that racing on MUP's is possibly more dangerous than riding on the road with cars. You can kill someone going 20+ mph on a bike.

I'm always a fan of engineering controls before spending effort/money on active enforcement. You can insert enough curves, bumps, whatever to slow a Cat 6 rider's roll.

I also blame American bike racing culture being too much of a "loner" thing that only super fit crazy people do. I get the idea in other countries is much more social and inclusive, meaning more accessible for the average Cat 6 MUP racer.

We need more clubs that do non-USAC affiliated local competition. I think cyclocross and running people do a good job of that.

Maelochs

Actually i am pretty sure the officer cannot hold you based on that ... as i said, (Hillel vs 6th Circuit Couirt, i think?) a person is Not required to carry ID, and holding (in effect arresting a person) until an ID can be confirmed would be in effect requiring a person to carry proof of ID. A person is required to give a name. In some states, it is a felony to Not give the correct name IF you are wanted ... to discourage punks with misdemeanor warrants from lying and risking getting felony charges. It is not a felony or even a crime to give a false name otherwise ... and non one could prove it if you did. So ... the cop would write six tickets to John Smith and six more to John Doe at no address ... yeah, definitely a good plan.

And by precisely the same reasoning what if it were a guy who blew just .02 over the limit at a DUI test, right? And then couldn't do his job? It wasn't like he was drinking at work, right? So ... you are suggesting that cops should only enforce the law when it is convenient for the person breaking the law?

Hey, why put me in jail for killing a kid on the MUP while i was playing playing boy racer ... it would cramp my style.

How about this---if a person doesn't want to do the time, don't do the crime?

rgconner

Better yet, "MUPS are for old ladies and kids. Real Men ride the road for segments."

livedarklions

From what I've seen, curves would be the worst thing you could put in. The craziest riders barely slow down for them, and they're the places most likely to have a head on collision between people who can't see each other until it is too late.

If a path is straight and not too crowded, it's really not hard to operate safely at 20 mph if you are willing and prepared to slow down and/or stop for pedestrians and other bikes. Always slow down well in advance of passing kids and dogs and anyone who looks like they might be unsteady, announce your pass before you pass people from behind, and don't think about Strava and all should be good.

And if you really want to ride a path without stopping, get there right at sunrise. You can go miles seeing almost no one else on the path.

I like the rest of your post, BTW.

rgconner

We got stuff like that too... although most people call it "delayed maintenance"

Hard to go 15mph+ if the trail is full of raised roots and 2 inch wide cracks.

jefnvk

If they are in the process of ticketing you for speeding or other moving violation, you are already being detained with cause, they indeed can hold you until identity is verified and the citation issued. If you don't believe me, pull off the next time an officer pulls you over in a car and try that excuse.

If youre really equating the dangers of drunk driving to a level equivalent with a group ride on a MUP, then this has just reached a level of ad absurdum, where I simply do not care to participate. Yes, I can find rare instances where a bicycle has killed a pedestrian, no, it is nowhere near the level of drunk driving, and certainly not worth a jailable misdemeanor. Give them all speeding tickets, it is the punishment that fits the crime

Maelochs

mr. jefnvk----come on, please. That's not even a good try, let alone a citation the law. if you disagree, show me the statute.

Did you look up Hilel vs 6th Circuit Court? yeah ... do.

You cannot Legally operate a Motor Vehicle without a license. However, you can ride a bike or walk without any ID at all. Look it up, please. Beyond that ... i can show you three instances where a rider on a fixie with no brakes killed a pedestrian within a few square miles of London in the space of a year . I put the links in another thread here. So, yeah ... whatever.

Done here.

Say ... how much personal interaction have you had with the police?

venturi95

Bang0Bang00

Ding Ding Ding! You win a prize for best post introducing relevant new information that is on point! Congratulations!

Annnnd you completely missed the point. Participation ribbon for you.

Now jefnvk and Maelochs, play nice boys.

Ummm, it being less bad, still puts it on the scale of bad.

Yup, that's shockingly terrible.

Good call, self imposed time out. Let's all take a time out.

I see some grass.... Looks kinda comfy.



(Good job Maelochs, defending an substantial point. You get a cookie)

livedarklions

No, I didn't miss the point. I disagreed that curves calm speed on an MUP, and actually from what I've seen, I believe they make the problem worse. I didn't disagree with the idea of engineering solutions, I just think that particular one is a lousy idea based on places I have witnessed near accidents. You get no prize for reading comprehension.

Bang0Bang00

Ahh $hit. You got me! I foolishly read everything before that last line.

I'll try to remember to skip over everything you write next time, and focus on the last sentence as to best comprehend your argument next time.

My bad.

livedarklions

Your trolling is sub-par. I will try to remember just to skip over your posts.

Maelochs

Another thread bites the dust.

burnthesheep

In terms of a kind of more picky or "pick on you" thought process, these guys are always posting up "poser" photos of themselves with the rides. They pace line flat mall parking lot circles and apartment complexes. Then the titles of said rides are "20mph yo" "we killed it".

Same ones show up on occasion to the group ride.......back in the B group.

Nothing wrong with the B group at all. It's there for a reason, inclusion. But if you put on your big boy lycra for posting, why not wear the big boy lycra to the group ride?

spinnaker

Wut??? How many people pay attention to Strava? The only time I might use it is figuring out a good route when touring in a unfamiliar area. I never use it at home because I know the roads.