Alleged Angeles Crest Road Rage Incident Involves Cyclists
#51
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Sure, there is no hierarchy. But if it's one bike going slowly, and 50 cars wishing to go faster, then take that into consideration and behave in the way that maximizes the utility of the population as a whole. To do otherwise is to be selfish. If you simply don't give a **** about other people, then at least admit it: don't hide behind talk about rights or laws. Just admit that you want to behave as if no other humans exist.
All this talk about leaving earlier to give oneself time to go more slowly is ridiculous. That would be time taken from something else, something much more productive than simply traveling from A to B. It could be more time being productive at work, more leisure time with one's family, more sleep, whatever. The least amount of time society spends going from A to B, the better. We need to spend time living, not commuting. (now, if your commute by bicycle substitutes for time you'd spend exercising, then great. That's multitasking, ha! But otherwise, it's just a huge waste of time that could be spent making the world a better place. Don't waste other people's time as well by insisting upon holding them back when you could easily give up the right of way for a second and let them get by.)
All this talk about leaving earlier to give oneself time to go more slowly is ridiculous. That would be time taken from something else, something much more productive than simply traveling from A to B. It could be more time being productive at work, more leisure time with one's family, more sleep, whatever. The least amount of time society spends going from A to B, the better. We need to spend time living, not commuting. (now, if your commute by bicycle substitutes for time you'd spend exercising, then great. That's multitasking, ha! But otherwise, it's just a huge waste of time that could be spent making the world a better place. Don't waste other people's time as well by insisting upon holding them back when you could easily give up the right of way for a second and let them get by.)
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If a bicyclist is over to the far right, a considerate competent motorist will move at least a little into the opposite lane to pass. Unfortunately, far too many drivers are neither considerate nor competent. My experience riding on the roads in this situation is that riding in the middle, even when I'm alone causes almost all drivers to move entirely into the next lane, which means that they don't pass me close. This is even true of most of the idiots who honk and yell. When I ride to the far right in this situation, I get at least some cars passing me by mere inches almost every time. I like it better when they move into the next lane.
Yes of course. Only motorist's use of the road way matters and their time and convenience is of utmost importance. Bicyclist's use of the roads is completely unnecessary and should be banned altogether, right? The world will come to an end if a motorist has to wait a few seconds or, horror of horrors, a few minutes to find a safe place to pass.
The fact is that it is not hard to move over to pass safely, especially if the bicyclists are going really slow. 5mph is so slow that passing should be trivially easy. It must be really steep. I'm 47, asthmatic and and I ride a cheap touring bike. I'm not very fast but it generally takes a 10% or so grade to get me down to 5mph. On a much more common 6% grade I'm typically doing more like 8-10mph.
God, this place is an alternate reality.
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My question is that if this is such a "dangerous" and "twisting and narrow road" than why does it have such a fast speed limit that traveling at 30 - 40MPH is considered to be "slow?" That road looks like one that I think that most any cyclist would take the lane on for their safety.
It does seem to be that he is one of those cyclists/motorists that seems to think that the only place for cyclists to be on the road is cowering in the gutter pan/hugging the curb. And that as soon as we hear the sound of an engine behind us that we'd better vacate the road as quickly as possible. Otherwise it'll be our "fault" if we get passed too closely or run off of the road.
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Six jours,
I can't let you have a pass on this comment.
The public roads are in fact for the enjoyment and private pursuits of all of us citizens! Unless someone has red and/or blue flashing lights on the roof, their "in-a-hurry" situation is no more important than my right to travel. It does not matter if someone is going to work or going to play, there is no hierarchy of travel.
I can't let you have a pass on this comment.
The public roads are in fact for the enjoyment and private pursuits of all of us citizens! Unless someone has red and/or blue flashing lights on the roof, their "in-a-hurry" situation is no more important than my right to travel. It does not matter if someone is going to work or going to play, there is no hierarchy of travel.
#56
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The snopes page I linked to does tell where it came close to happening.
What does lawmakers trying to legislate pi (even indirectly) have to do with Pluto's status as a planet?
Pluto was not "demoted" by lawmakers. It was demoted by scientists with a scientific reason for doing so. Really, it was mostly about clarifying what the term "planet" meant. Planet is a word -- we decide what it means. pi is a constant -- we don't get to change it's meaning arbitrarily.
In any event, what really pushed Pluto out the "planet" business was the discovery of Eris -- it was discovered in 2005, and it's even larger than Pluto. In any event, if you want to read more about Pluto status, this might be a good place to start.
As if it did happen, I would imagine that it would raise as much of a stink that the demoting of Pluto from planet status created. And the interesting thing with Pluto is that from what I've read just because one "committee" has "demoted" it doesn't mean that all "committees" have to accept it.
Pluto was not "demoted" by lawmakers. It was demoted by scientists with a scientific reason for doing so. Really, it was mostly about clarifying what the term "planet" meant. Planet is a word -- we decide what it means. pi is a constant -- we don't get to change it's meaning arbitrarily.
In any event, what really pushed Pluto out the "planet" business was the discovery of Eris -- it was discovered in 2005, and it's even larger than Pluto. In any event, if you want to read more about Pluto status, this might be a good place to start.
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You can still be cited in California under CVC 21656 if you refuse to turn out when safe to do so, in order to allow faster traffic to pass if there is no other way for them to pass you safely, such as another lane or lane sharing (legally only when there are five or more vehicles waiting to pass).
I agree. I think there are plenty of situations where riding side by side doesn't make much difference (if you are in a situation where you have to take the lane anyway, having two bikes side by side won't matter in terms of blocking traffic), but I would consider it rude at best, illegal at worst, to ride side by side when road sharing is safely possible. It doesn't have to be war between us and drivers... you can cooperate and share roads safely.
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That goes both ways you know. Just because a motorist can buzz us, force us off of the road, etc. doesn't mean that they should. If the road is unsafe to pass, AND there ISN'T a safe place for us to pull over they need to be patient and wait either for a safe opening to pass us. Or a safe area for us to pull over and allow them to pass. IS that asking too much? Apparently for some on both sides of the road it is.
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Six jours,
I can't let you have a pass on this comment.
The public roads are in fact for the enjoyment and private pursuits of all of us citizens! Unless someone has red and/or blue flashing lights on the roof, their "in-a-hurry" situation is no more important than my right to travel. It does not matter if someone is going to work or going to play, there is no hierarchy of travel.
I can't let you have a pass on this comment.
The public roads are in fact for the enjoyment and private pursuits of all of us citizens! Unless someone has red and/or blue flashing lights on the roof, their "in-a-hurry" situation is no more important than my right to travel. It does not matter if someone is going to work or going to play, there is no hierarchy of travel.
#60
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Sure, but if there are two people in that car, or two cars behind you, you're being selfish to insist your rights outweigh theirs.
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That is your opinion, the next cyclist who travels down that road is likely to disagree with you. As is their right.
But as it happens, it's a teachable moment. The road on which that particular incident happened is extremely popular for recreational cycling. The behavior of cyclists over the last decade or so has resulted in pure hatred from local residents and motorists. Cyclists take over the whole road, urinate on resident's lawns, and just generally behave as if the whole place is their personal playground. The road actually is wide enough that cyclists can ride two-up and still allow safe passing, but they often take the middle of the road anyway, or ride three, four, or five abreast, or just in a big loose packs, giving everyone the finger, pounding on hoods, and just generally being as obnoxious as they possibly can. Incidents like the one with the doctor, while inexcusable, are also inevitable.
And it was only "inevitable" when hot heads like that "good" doctor were involved. Anyone who has an ounce of common sense knows that you do not swoop in front of a couple of cyclists and slam on your brakes.
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"Beyond that, you can pretty much count on the fact that a couple of Lycra-clad prettyboys riding Angeles Crest on a weekend are out for recreation."
It sure sounds as if you're saying that because they're out for a "recreational ride" that they don't have as much right to the road as someone who is also just as likely to be out for a recreational ride in their car. As you know that most people who are inclined to go out for recreational rides in their cars are more likely to do so on the weekend, right?
What "real world" are you living in? I've talked with a number of friends who also ride and we all have our "fair share" of horror stories of our dealings with reckless/clueless motorists who have endangered our lives just because they were in a hurry and perceived us as "being in their way."
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Sure, there are rare situations where a cyclist really does need to take the lane on a highway like this one. But that would be very very rare. I think in 99% of situations I would answer the claim "I didn't feel it was safe to share the road because I'm likely to crash when cars pass close by me" with "then you need to learn how to ride a freakin' bicycle before coming out in public." Your rights to be a ninny do not override the rights of everyone else to carry on with their lives.
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#64
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I haven't ridden with every cyclist who has ever gone up Angeles Crest, but the hundreds that I have know have never expressed discomfort with it. The great majority, I am sure, would think ludicrous the idea that they should ride in the middle of that road. It's unbelievable to me that someone would argue poor sightlines - IOW, cliffs that block a motorists' view of the exit to a corner - justify someone riding in the middle of the road. I mean, think about it: a driver comes around a corner with the assumption, rather than the knowledge, that the road in front of him will be clear, and you want us to put a near-stationary cyclist in the middle of that road? It's insane.
According to you. I have as I am sure others here have ridden maybe not that particular road in question, but ones very similar to it and have determined that the safest position for us is to take the lane.
Last edited by Digital_Cowboy; 07-04-11 at 01:54 PM.
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This is a bad road for "taking the lane". There are too many situations where a driver could come around a blind corner and see a cyclist too late for him to stop. (Doubtless this will be considered the driver's fault here on A&S, but out in the real world, the cyclist is still dead and the driver won't be cited.)
Have you been taking "reading between the lines" lessons from Digital Cowboy?
On this particular road, it can be quite dangerous to move into the oncoming lane, and safe opportunities are sometimes quite far between. OTOH, there are very few sections where single-file cyclists cannot be passed safely and politely.
On this particular road, it can be quite dangerous to move into the oncoming lane, and safe opportunities are sometimes quite far between. OTOH, there are very few sections where single-file cyclists cannot be passed safely and politely.
It sounds more like the world that you live in is the one that is in the "alternate reality." One where motorists are "forgiven" for assuming that the road ahead of them is always going to remain clear.
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It's California. We generally don't put up with low speed limits. It's also an internationally famous road for sports car and motorcycle enthusiasts. A certain amount of "over-the-limit" speed is tolerated, although the place is heavily patrolled on the weekends and really high speeds are frowned upon. And you'd be utterly insane to take the lane on the way up. I've never actually seen it. Once you're there, you instantly understand how foolish it would be. Or at least rational people do...
I'm sorry, but that does appear to be what you are saying. That cyclists are "crazy" or "madmen" for wanting to exercise their rights to the road, and to take the road when they (and not some motorist) determine that it is the safest thing to do.
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That may be the point that you are "trying to make," but it is coming across as cyclists have less rights to the roads than do motorists. And that by riding in a safe and legal manner that we are being "rude and inconsiderate."
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The snopes page I linked to does tell where it came close to happening.
What does lawmakers trying to legislate pi (even indirectly) have to do with Pluto's status as a planet?
Pluto was not "demoted" by lawmakers. It was demoted by scientists with a scientific reason for doing so. Really, it was mostly about clarifying what the term "planet" meant. Planet is a word -- we decide what it means. pi is a constant -- we don't get to change it's meaning arbitrarily.
In any event, what really pushed Pluto out the "planet" business was the discovery of Eris -- it was discovered in 2005, and it's even larger than Pluto. In any event, if you want to read more about Pluto status, this might be a good place to start.
What does lawmakers trying to legislate pi (even indirectly) have to do with Pluto's status as a planet?
Pluto was not "demoted" by lawmakers. It was demoted by scientists with a scientific reason for doing so. Really, it was mostly about clarifying what the term "planet" meant. Planet is a word -- we decide what it means. pi is a constant -- we don't get to change it's meaning arbitrarily.
In any event, what really pushed Pluto out the "planet" business was the discovery of Eris -- it was discovered in 2005, and it's even larger than Pluto. In any event, if you want to read more about Pluto status, this might be a good place to start.
#69
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Riding in traffic is a balancing act. I ride, inasmuch as I can, on a not to interfere basis. I don't want to hold up motorists. I stand much to lose and nothing to gain by pissing them off. I DO NOT take the lane just because I can. If I take it, it is because I have determined it is in the best interest of my safety. If I were going up a narrow winding mountain road at slow speed, I would make opportunities for motorists to safely pass me. We both benefit from that. There may be places on that road where I would take the lane, but I would not let auto traffic stack up behind me. The state of AK has a law that requires people to pull over if more than 5 vehicles are backed up behind them. That's a good law. Whether a law or not, it's considerate. Share the road works both ways.
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It goes both ways. And once more (and I'm sure not the last) IF I more than a car or two behind me and IF I can SAFELY move over to allow them to SAFELY pass me, I will. However IF I cannot SAFELY move over to allow them to SAFELY pass me, than I am not going to do so.
That is NOT being either rude or inconsiderate. And IF the motorists are insisting that I do so so that they can get to their doctor's appointment than THEY are the ones who are being rude and inconsiderate, not me.
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I don't know where this concept came from, other than pure selfishness. I can't think of any other "right" that is enforced in such a manner. Everything else in law, and in common sense, has to comply to the generally accepted standards of the community, not the selfish judgement of one person.
Sure, there are rare situations where a cyclist really does need to take the lane on a highway like this one. But that would be very very rare. I think in 99% of situations I would answer the claim "I didn't feel it was safe to share the road because I'm likely to crash when cars pass close by me" with "then you need to learn how to ride a freakin' bicycle before coming out in public." Your rights to be a ninny do not override the rights of everyone else to carry on with their lives.
Sure, there are rare situations where a cyclist really does need to take the lane on a highway like this one. But that would be very very rare. I think in 99% of situations I would answer the claim "I didn't feel it was safe to share the road because I'm likely to crash when cars pass close by me" with "then you need to learn how to ride a freakin' bicycle before coming out in public." Your rights to be a ninny do not override the rights of everyone else to carry on with their lives.
That may be how it is where you ride, but where I ride the majority of roads are too narrow for a car and a bicycle traveling in the same direction to safely pass each other. If we do not take the lane motorists will pass us with just inches between them and us. See my post in another thread about the time I had an 18-wheeler pass me trapping me between him and the curb. Had I been further out in the lane he would have had to change lanes (this is/was a road with two lanes for each direction of travel) in order to safely pass me.
#72
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Riding in traffic is a balancing act. I ride, inasmuch as I can, on a not to interfere basis. I don't want to hold up motorists. I stand much to lose and nothing to gain by pissing them off. I DO NOT take the lane just because I can. If I take it, it is because I have determined it is in the best interest of my safety. If I were going up a narrow winding mountain road at slow speed, I would make opportunities for motorists to safely pass me. We both benefit from that. There may be places on that road where I would take the lane, but I would not let auto traffic stack up behind me. The state of AK has a law that requires people to pull over if more than 5 vehicles are backed up behind them. That's a good law. Whether a law or not, it's considerate. Share the road works both ways.
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It goes both ways. And once more (and I'm sure not the last) IF I more than a car or two behind me and IF I can SAFELY move over to allow them to SAFELY pass me, I will. However IF I cannot SAFELY move over to allow them to SAFELY pass me, than I am not going to do so.
In other words, we have to be reasonable. And we ought to give a damn about other people. I do and it doesn't lessen my cycling experience one bit. I can see no reason not to continue on as I have been.
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#74
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Absolutely not. Do the math. Whichever action maximizes overall utility for society, while not particularly harming any individual, is the action to promote and expect. To behave otherwise, is to be selfish and put your solitary "rights" over those of multiple individuals.
If I read what you are saying correctly, than in that instance the cyclists needs would take priority over that of the two in the car, right?
That's all fine and dandy and accounted for in my position (check posts above). But I still think you are wrong that you alone get to determine when it is safe. I'm pretty sure every court will apply the standard of what a reasonable cyclist (as established by an "expert" giving testimony) would find safe and not let a single individual make that call.
I was in a similar circumstance not too long ago coming home from a "town hall" meeting on what to do about the Pinellas Trail/bridge in Tampa. It was 2100hrs, it was dark, I was riding along Gandy Blvd. From about BK in Tampa to about a 1/4 mile or so from the bridge the left lane was closed.
There were several cars stacked up behind me, however there was NO safe place for me to pull over and to allow them to pass me. I was IIRC riding in the right side tire track. Not ONE driver blew their horn at me. They just patently followed until the left lane opened back up and they all calmly moved over into the left lane and went on their way.
I continued up onto the bridge and moved over into the breakdown lane and road across the bridge with no one harassing me.
But apparently according to some here I was being "rude and/or inconsiderate" because I didn't leave the road to allow the cars to pass me. Even though it would have been unsafe for me to do so.
Also according to those "self-appointed" experts when I position myself in the left most through lane at an intersection when I am going to my bank that I am again being "rude and/or inconsiderate." Even though it is the safer thing for me to do. As a block from that intersection I'll be making a left turn. If I positioned myself in the right most through lane than about a half a block or so from that intersection I'd have to cross 2 or 3 lanes of traffic.
Likewise, I guess I am being "rude and/or inconsiderate" when I am going to the pet store to get crickets to fed my spiders. I start moving over to the left turn lane about a hundred or so yards before the left turn lane starts. Instead of waiting until I am almost at the intersection and than having to "fight" the traffic to get over to the left hand turn lane. Or even going through the intersection and than waiting for the light to change green for the cross street and cross street on the opposite side of the intersection. Instead of making a left hand turn from the left turn lane just as any other road user would do.
Last edited by Digital_Cowboy; 07-04-11 at 04:20 PM.
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Six Jours: "Incidents like the one with the doctor, while inexcusable, are also inevitable."
Digital Cowboy: "That does NOT excuse the "good" doctor's behavior."
Just an example of why discussing this with you has turned out to be such a waste of time. You're seeing what you want to see and ignoring what I'm actually writing.
Of course, I'm a fool for bothering with this ridiculous forum anyway...
Digital Cowboy: "That does NOT excuse the "good" doctor's behavior."
Just an example of why discussing this with you has turned out to be such a waste of time. You're seeing what you want to see and ignoring what I'm actually writing.
Of course, I'm a fool for bothering with this ridiculous forum anyway...