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Fuel resupply - white gas

Old 10-06-20, 01:28 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by KC8QVO
...It sounds like my 2 options are to get another bottle for white gas or throw in the cannister stove...
You don't like my bumming option? In the long distance hiking world, that's an acceptable tactic and it even has a name--Yogiing. You can Yogi a meal, a ride, a night in a bed. There's a well-known hiker with the trail name Yogi.

Of course, it comes from the old Yogi Bear cartoons, but you don't actually steal the picnic basket.
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Old 10-06-20, 01:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Leebo
i use denatured alcohol in my trangia. Similar?
If the trangia type stove you are referring to is what I found when I googled it - that is an alcohol stove. There are a lot of forms of "alcohol" that will burn in them - Heet is popular, as is denatured alcohol. Oddly enough, I bought a quart of denatured alcohol for use as a cleaner of sorts a while back. It says right on the can it is "fuel".

Pressurized white gas liquid stoves and alcohol stoves are opposite ends of the spectrum on how they function. I would imagine the fuel wouldn't be compatible, either.
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Old 10-06-20, 01:39 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by andrewclaus
You don't like my bumming option? In the long distance hiking world, that's an acceptable tactic and it even has a name--Yogiing. You can Yogi a meal, a ride, a night in a bed. There's a well-known hiker with the trail name Yogi.

Of course, it comes from the old Yogi Bear cartoons, but you don't actually steal the picnic basket.
Lol. Never heard that term before, but I can see it.

The catch is I don't think I'll be reliably able to do that. My intent is to be solo and away from others for the most part. So the idea of yogiing goes against the grain.
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Old 10-06-20, 04:31 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by KC8QVO
...
Pressurized white gas liquid stoves and alcohol stoves are opposite ends of the spectrum on how they function. I would imagine the fuel wouldn't be compatible, either.
Some vintage Swedish stoves could be fitted with an alcohol jet. I have an Optimus 111T, and I have seen internet references to an alcohol jet and also needing some form of an air restriction tube to use alcohol. But I have no interest in trying to make the conversion. When I refer to vintage Swedish stoves, they were all pressurized liquid fuel.

The 111T heating some water in the photo on a canoe trip.



I am not sure if the stove is running on Coleman fuel or kerosene in the photo, I have used both in that stove.
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Old 10-06-20, 05:22 PM
  #30  
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Pdlamb beat me to it, but 'white gas' used to just mean lead free. Today, all gasoline is lead free. I don't know how the ethanol admixture affects use in a stove.
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Old 10-06-20, 05:29 PM
  #31  
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Back when my folks took us camping in the '60s and early '70s, we had both a Coleman stove and lantern. 'White gas' was sold at many gas stations - but most often it was really just unleaded auto gas! That's why it was called white gas. The other leaded gas had colors to denote the octane level content due to the tetra-ethyl lead additive percentage (same method used in aviation gasolines! - Green and Red were common (76 and 90 - but I can't remember which was which) but the military used Purple to denote 115/145 for their supercharged engines) so unleaded 'white gas' was clear.
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Old 10-06-20, 08:19 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by pdlamb
Half a century ago, white gas was simply gasoline without lead, e.g., Pure (later Amoco). We made a special stop at a Pure gas station on one trip to get fuel for an even older Primus stove. (Too expensive to put in the car!)
I was around half a century ago (plus some). I’ve never heard anyone refer to “white gas” as unleaded gasoline. “Coleman Fuel” or stove fuel or lantern fuel (different from kerosene for lanterns), yes, but never gasoline.

Gasoline has never been “pure” in the roughly 120 or so years it’s been in use. It is a mixture of various hydrocarbons from the distillation of petroleum and is blended for summer and winter use. The closest you could come to “pure” gasoline would be 2,2,4-trimethypentane or iso-octane. Iso-octane is the standard used for octane rating...it’s set as 100 octane.

I also hate to admit it but 1970 was 50 years ago. The phase out of leaded gasoline started in 1970. But prior to that “unleaded” gasoline didn’t really exist. Tetraethyl lead was added to almost all gasoline mixtures from 1920 onward. Engines were designed for use with leaded gasoline. The lead was added to stop knock. The lead was also added to keep the valve seats lubricated. But it also had a bunch of other chemicals added to it to scavenge the excess lead so that it didn’t build up where it was needed. Burning unleaded gas in a motor designed for leaded gas caused all kinds of problems.

Now, I don’t doubt that you may have bought “white gas” at an automotive gasoline station. I remember the ones in my small town sold kerosene as well as gasoline because the oil companies made all these products. I don’t recall them selling “white gas” but I lived in a very small town and the kerosene was used by ranchers and farmers around the town for lanterns because rural power wasn’t always reliable. Many of them...my grandparents included...used coal and wood fired stoves because they didn’t have piped gas nor propane. White gas stoves would have been to expensive as well.
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Old 10-06-20, 11:11 PM
  #33  
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"Coleman fuel is used primarily for fueling lanterns and camp stoves. Additionally, it is a popular fuel for fire dancing.[3] Originally, it was simply casing-head gas or drip gas, which has similar properties. Drip gas was sold commercially at gas stations and hardware stores in North America until the early 1950s. The white gas sold today is a similar product but is produced at refineries and has a very low benzene content, benzene being a human carcinogen.[4]

Coleman fuel is a mixture of cyclohexane, nonane, octane, heptane, and pentane.[5]

Though Coleman fuel has an octane rating of 50 to 55 and a flammability similar to gasoline, it has none of the additives found in modern gasoline. Most burners will readily burn unleaded gasoline (or white gas), however.[6]"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coleman_fuel

"Drip gas, so named because it can be drawn off the bottom of small chambers (called drips) sometimes installed in pipelines from gas wells, is another name for natural-gas condensate, a naturally occurring form of gasoline obtained as a byproduct of natural gas extraction. It is also known as "condensate", "natural gasoline", "casing head gas", "raw gas", "white gas" and "liquid gold".[10][11] Drip gas is defined in the United States Code of Federal Regulations as consisting of butane, pentane, and hexane hydrocarbons. Within set ranges of distillation, drip gas may be extracted and used to denature fuel alcohol.[12] Drip gas is also used as a cleaner and solvent as well as a lantern and stove fuel. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natura...nsate#Drip_gas


"Beginning in the Great Depression, drip gas was used as a replacement for commercial gasoline by people in oil-producing areas. "In the days of simple engines in automobiles and farm tractors it was not uncommon for anyone having access to a condensate well to fill his tank with 'drip,'"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natura...nsate#Drip_gas

Last edited by saddlesores; 10-06-20 at 11:17 PM.
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Old 10-06-20, 11:42 PM
  #34  
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google tells me the white gas sold at stations was from amoco.

search for "amoco gas"

While most oil companies were switching to leaded gasolines en masse during the mid-to-late 1920s, American Oil chose to continue marketing its premium-grade "Amoco-Gas" (later Amoco Super-Premium) as a lead-free gasoline by using aromatics rather than tetraethyllead to increase octane levels, decades before the environmental movement of the early 1970s, led to more stringent auto-emission controls which ultimately mandated the universal phase out of leaded gasoline. The "Amoco" lead-free gasoline was sold at American's stations in the eastern and southern U.S. alongside American Regular gasoline, which was a leaded fuel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoco


we useta buy white gas for coleman lanterns and stoves for our camping trips in the 1970's
from a station outside of richmond, va. and come to think about it, i'm pretty sure it was an
amoco station (which according to google earf is now a wawa convenience store.)
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Old 10-07-20, 12:28 AM
  #35  
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I mentioned the long butane cartridges in my previous post above.
The Kovea Spider stove has a preheat tube so can burn liquid gas, in fact it actually works better on liquid. I have an adapter for the cartridges, I light the stove then flip the cartridge so the notch is down and the internal tube picks up liquid.
Same goes for screw canisters. Light then invert, especially when cold or if it's a cheap one with lots of butane.
and it's only 108 grams and around 60 bucks.
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Old 10-07-20, 05:14 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by saddlesores
(which according to google earf is now a wawa convenience store.)
Wawa rocks!
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Old 10-07-20, 06:10 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by saddlesores
google tells me the white gas sold at stations was from amoco.

search for "amoco gas"

While most oil companies were switching to leaded gasolines en masse during the mid-to-late 1920s, American Oil chose to continue marketing its premium-grade "Amoco-Gas" (later Amoco Super-Premium) as a lead-free gasoline by using aromatics rather than tetraethyllead to increase octane levels, decades before the environmental movement of the early 1970s, led to more stringent auto-emission controls which ultimately mandated the universal phase out of leaded gasoline. The "Amoco" lead-free gasoline was sold at American's stations in the eastern and southern U.S. alongside American Regular gasoline, which was a leaded fuel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoco


we useta buy white gas for coleman lanterns and stoves for our camping trips in the 1970's
from a station outside of richmond, va. and come to think about it, i'm pretty sure it was an
amoco station (which according to google earf is now a wawa convenience store.)
My memory is a little hazy on this, but I definitely remember buying unleaded gasoline from one brand that was called white gas before unleaded was a regular thing. I think that yes it was Amoco and if I remember correctly it was only the high test. I am pretty sure we burned it in lanterns and stoves at some point in time, but I also remember buying Coleman fuel in gallon cans way back around the same time. I am not clear on the timetable but it was sometime over the late 50s, the 60s, and maybe the early 70s. I can't say for sure if we burned regular gasoline at some point or not very early in that period.
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Old 10-07-20, 06:52 AM
  #38  
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I think I recall people talking about buying white gas at a pump in rural areas when I was a kid in the late 50s and 60s, but I grew up in an urban area and there were no white gas pumps in the city that I noticed.

You occasionally still see kerosene pumps in rural areas. Last time I bought more kerosene for my stoves was a couple years ago, I think the pump price was between $3 and $4 for a gallon of kerosene.
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Old 10-07-20, 07:58 AM
  #39  
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We used to buy white gas for camping from the pump in the late 60's to early 70's. Never heard of/saw any other source of it..then Coleman came out with gallon cans at a price that was a bit shocking, at least compared to pump prices.

Can still buy kerosene from a pump, but I'm in a somewhat rural area.
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Old 10-07-20, 08:08 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
Wawa rocks!
in that case, you'd be thrilled to bits visiting Wawa, Ontario.

real place, been there. Has it's own giant goose statue.
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Old 10-07-20, 09:43 AM
  #41  
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I remember kerosene at the pump, but I haven't seen it in years. A quick google search for "kerosene at the pump near me" shows it as pretty common here in Tallahassee though. Apparently I just haven't noticed.
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Old 10-07-20, 09:52 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by saddlesores
"Coleman fuel is used primarily for fueling lanterns and camp stoves. Additionally, it is a popular fuel for fire dancing.[3] Originally, it was simply casing-head gas or drip gas, which has similar properties. Drip gas was sold commercially at gas stations and hardware stores in North America until the early 1950s. The white gas sold today is a similar product but is produced at refineries and has a very low benzene content, benzene being a human carcinogen.[4]

Coleman fuel is a mixture of cyclohexane, nonane, octane, heptane, and pentane.[5]

Though Coleman fuel has an octane rating of 50 to 55 and a flammability similar to gasoline, it has none of the additives found in modern gasoline. Most burners will readily burn unleaded gasoline (or white gas), however.[6]"


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coleman_fuel
The list of alkanes in Coleman Fuel is C5 to C9 hydrocarbons. Although not listed, it probably contains hexane as well, not that it will make much difference. Mineral spirits has alkanes of C6 to C10. Lighter fluid is in the same range. Kerosene is more in the C8 to C12 range. Mineral spirits and lighter fluid might work with the same jet because they are so close to “white gas” in composition. Kerosene probably wouldn’t without a new jet. But, yet again, it would be best to test that before depending on them to work in the field.

"Drip gas, so named because it can be drawn off the bottom of small chambers (called drips) sometimes installed in pipelines from gas wells, is another name for natural-gas condensate, a naturally occurring form of gasoline obtained as a byproduct of natural gas extraction. It is also known as "condensate", "natural gasoline", "casing head gas", "raw gas", "white gas" and "liquid gold".[10][11] Drip gas is defined in the United States Code of Federal Regulations as consisting of butane, pentane, and hexane hydrocarbons. Within set ranges of distillation, drip gas may be extracted and used to denature fuel alcohol.[12] Drip gas is also used as a cleaner and solvent as well as a lantern and stove fuel. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natura...nsate#Drip_gas
This may be where the term “white gas” came from. Natural gas is mostly methane but it does contain other hydrocarbons like ethane, propane and butane as well as others. Butane is just barely a permanent gas (boiling point of 1°C or about 35°F). I doubt that drip gas is a major product from natural gas wells, however.

"Beginning in the Great Depression, drip gas was used as a replacement for commercial gasoline by people in oil-producing areas. "In the days of simple engines in automobiles and farm tractors it was not uncommon for anyone having access to a condensate well to fill his tank with 'drip,'"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natura...nsate#Drip_gas
Drip gas would have made for a very rough running engine that probably didn’t run for long. An engine running on that fuel would have knocked like crazy probably because the fuel mixture would have detonated prematurely. A Diesel engine would probably have run better on it but probably still would have had problems.

Originally Posted by saddlesores
google tells me the white gas sold at stations was from amoco.

search for "amoco gas"

While most oil companies were switching to leaded gasolines en masse during the mid-to-late 1920s, American Oil chose to continue marketing its premium-grade "Amoco-Gas" (later Amoco Super-Premium) as a lead-free gasoline by using aromatics rather than tetraethyllead to increase octane levels, decades before the environmental movement of the early 1970s, led to more stringent auto-emission controls which ultimately mandated the universal phase out of leaded gasoline. The "Amoco" lead-free gasoline was sold at American's stations in the eastern and southern U.S. alongside American Regular gasoline, which was a leaded fuel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amoco
That might explain some of the disconnect. It’s a regional thing. Lead free gas wasn’t really a thing here in the west until it had to be phased out in the 70s. My family never bought gasoline at Standard stations (which became Amoco in the 80s and 90s here) because it was way too expensive. I still don’t because it is still more expensive than other gasolines. But I kind of doubt that their lead free gas would have work very well here in the Mountain West. Our altitude allows us to use lower octane fuels because engines run at a richer fuel to air ration so the engines don’t knock. Our “regular” gas has an octane rating of 85 while most everywhere else has octane ratings of 87 to 88 for “regular”.

It also might be a case of mistaken memory. The Wikipedia article says that Amoco sold a product called “White Crown Premium”. People being people tend to shorten things so “White Crown Premium” gas becomes “White Crown” and eventually becomes just white gas. It’s still automotive gasoline which will probably burn in a Coleman stove.

For me, Coleman fuel, which we always called “white gas”, never came from the gas station. It always came in the 1 gallon metal cans from the hardware store. Additionally, I would never use gasoline in a stove of any kind even though it can be used. The risks of handling gasoline outside of a car engine is just too great. I’d cook over sticks and cow dung before I’d use gasoline.
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Old 10-07-20, 11:09 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by djb
in that case, you'd be thrilled to bits visiting Wawa, Ontario.

real place, been there. Has it's own giant goose statue.
The business took its name from the word for goose in that whatever language it is from.
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Old 10-07-20, 11:39 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
I was around half a century ago (plus some). I’ve never heard anyone refer to “white gas” as unleaded gasoline. “Coleman Fuel” or stove fuel or lantern fuel (different from kerosene for lanterns), yes, but never gasoline.

Gasoline has never been “pure” in the roughly 120 or so years it’s been in use. It is a mixture of various hydrocarbons from the distillation of petroleum and is blended for summer and winter use. The closest you could come to “pure” gasoline would be 2,2,4-trimethypentane or iso-octane. Iso-octane is the standard used for octane rating...it’s set as 100 octane.
Pure Oil Co. was the gas chain where I grew up; I think they later re-branded (or were bought out) as Amoco. Their hook was that their gas didn't have that cheap lead in it which would foul your engine. I only knew one family who bought it regularly, as it was 20-50% more expensive than leaded gas. I never thought to ask how their cars lasted (they were traded every two years), even after I bought my first lawn mower, which had explicit instructions in the owner's manual to use only leaded gasoline.

More fun factoids on petrochemicals. Straight chain CH3(CH2)6CH3, or normal octane, has a much lower octane rating than 2,2,4-trimethylpentane (not sure how low). The tert-butyl group, (CH3)3C- resulting from oxidation of the latter burns slow enough to ****** combustion and reduce or prevent knocking in high compression internal combustion engines. The standard for 0 octane is normal heptane, the analog of normal octane with only seven carbon atoms. But for the high performance, high compression aircraft engines of WWII, 100 octane wasn't good enough. The aromatic toluene has a 120 octane rating. One of my chemistry professors enjoyed telling us how they had to use benzene for most of the experiments during the war because the toluene was delivered to the navy and air force.
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Old 10-07-20, 01:19 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by staehpj1
I remember kerosene at the pump, but I haven't seen it in years. A quick google search for "kerosene at the pump near me" shows it as pretty common here in Tallahassee though. Apparently I just haven't noticed.
If you go check it out and buy some, red is for gasoline containers, I think blue is for kerosene containers. But my 5 gallon kerosene can (printed kerosene right on it) is yellow, perhaps it is an older can?

But if you had a red MSR bottle, if you stood where they could not look out the window at you, you probably would be ok.

I probably use more kerosene for wiping off my bike chains (with a paper towel) than I actually use in my camp stoves.
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Old 10-07-20, 02:46 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
If you go check it out and buy some, red is for gasoline containers, I think blue is for kerosene containers. But my 5 gallon kerosene can (printed kerosene right on it) is yellow, perhaps it is an older can?

But if you had a red MSR bottle, if you stood where they could not look out the window at you, you probably would be ok.

I probably use more kerosene for wiping off my bike chains (with a paper towel) than I actually use in my camp stoves.
Way back in the day we always kept a can of it on hand for automotive parts cleaning. We kept it in a red 2 gallon gasoline can, but I doubt they enforced any container rule back then if they even had any.

As far as stove fuel, I really don't have any intention of burning kerosene although my whisperlite international does offer that option with a jet swap.
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Old 10-07-20, 06:22 PM
  #47  
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When our family was camping for 2-3 weeks at a time in the '60s, many gas stations also had a coin-operated ice machine outside - that sold ice in either 20-25-pound pound blocks or in cubes. Dad bought the block form because it would last longer in the old KampKold metal cooler..



Before our family trip in '71 - eight weeks, and covering 13,000 miles from Cleveland to the South/west US - dad built a plywood box to fit on our boat trailer that held our camping gear - and separate plywood box containing a propane 5 cu ft RV refrigerator/freezer and the requisite 20-pound propane tank(s) ..No more searching for ice! He also had a quick-connect on the gas line to hook a hose to the three-burner propane stove, so no more Coleman gas stove Then the only thing that use the white gas was the Coleman lantern. Dad never bought Coleman fuel - too expensive.

The '73 trip was much the same - 7 weeks and 11,000 miles to the North/west including the Canadian Rockies. That trip was memorable from the standpoint that we 'took in' a young couple that were riding the Canadian Rockies by bicycle. The campground somewhere between Banff and Jasper was full, and the next campground was some distance away (and they couldn't make it there before dark) so dad offered to host them on our campsite. IIRC, he concocted a story for the camp rangers that we were the same family, just 'meeting up with the oldest son and his wife' for a few days along the way...
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Old 10-07-20, 06:57 PM
  #48  
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Nice story coug, about the young couple I mean.
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Old 10-07-20, 07:03 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
The business took its name from the word for goose in that whatever language it is from.
well whaddya know!
learn sumpin every day
cool.
must be a native American language.
I just remember the giant goose, very expensive gas for the time, 25 years ago, and a hell of a long way to drive to the next town. Was driving across Canada at the time. Kinda cemented the idea that the romantic idea of riding a bike across Canada wasn't so romantic really, that I preferred European trips just cuz of the vast distances.
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Old 10-07-20, 09:56 PM
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Originally Posted by pdlamb
Pure Oil Co. was the gas chain where I grew up; I think they later re-branded (or were bought out) as Amoco. Their hook was that their gas didn't have that cheap lead in it which would foul your engine. I only knew one family who bought it regularly, as it was 20-50% more expensive than leaded gas. I never thought to ask how their cars lasted (they were traded every two years), even after I bought my first lawn mower, which had explicit instructions in the owner's manual to use only leaded gasoline.

More fun factoids on petrochemicals. Straight chain CH3(CH2)6CH3, or normal octane, has a much lower octane rating than 2,2,4-trimethylpentane (not sure how low). The tert-butyl group, (CH3)3C- resulting from oxidation of the latter burns slow enough to ****** combustion and reduce or prevent knocking in high compression internal combustion engines. The standard for 0 octane is normal heptane, the analog of normal octane with only seven carbon atoms. But for the high performance, high compression aircraft engines of WWII, 100 octane wasn't good enough. The aromatic toluene has a 120 octane rating. One of my chemistry professors enjoyed telling us how they had to use benzene for most of the experiments during the war because the toluene was delivered to the navy and air force.
Normal octane has an “octane” rating of -20 on the Research Octane Number (RON) system. Only hexadecane has a lower number. Both of them work better in diesel fuel.

And, yes, World War II aviation fuel was higher octane than 100. Sunoco Oil developed the cracking process to make very high octane fuels...they were making it for race cars before the war. The ability to get higher octane fuels probably won the war. German and Japanese planes had to run on lower octane fuels and thus couldn’t perform as well as the Allied planes.
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Last edited by cyccommute; 10-08-20 at 06:52 AM.
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