Mid 80's Peugeot PB18. Better braking?
#1
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Mid 80's Peugeot PB18. Better braking?
Yesterday I picked up a mid 80's Peugeot PB18 that is all original and in great condition. The owner had it sitting in the garage unused for many years.
Current brakes are Weinmann non-aero levers paired with Weinmann 605 calipers. The braking system seems to be very stiff and uncomfortable so i'm thinking of replacing the levers with Shimano 105 aero levers.
Thanks!
Current brakes are Weinmann non-aero levers paired with Weinmann 605 calipers. The braking system seems to be very stiff and uncomfortable so i'm thinking of replacing the levers with Shimano 105 aero levers.
- Will I run into any compatibility issues pairing the Shimano aero levers with the Weinmann 605 calipers?
- Will I see see improved braking?
- Should I replace the calipers as well?
Thanks!
Last edited by black02em2; 09-08-20 at 01:34 PM.
#2
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Overhauling the brakeset, replacing the cables and housing, adding kool-stop brake pads, placing the levers on the bars at a comfortable position, and truing the wheels will likely correct the issue.
But some folks just don't like non-aero levers, and aero levers are an "upgrade" for them.
But some folks just don't like non-aero levers, and aero levers are an "upgrade" for them.
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#3
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Appreciate the advice. I've got the cables/housings but i'll have to look into new pads.
I maybe disassemble the calipers to polish them up, that may help.
In terms of the aero levers for a cleaner look, do you think i'd have any issues with the compatibility?
Last edited by black02em2; 09-08-20 at 01:35 PM.
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Besides esthetics, the only issue I've seen between an "upgraded" lever (to aero) and an old caliper brake concerns the location of the cable anchor on the brake. If it is the old '70s style on the non drive-side (nds) of the front caliper, it can be difficult to run the left aero lever to that position and maintain the caliper's center over the rim. This can be remedied easily by switching the front brake to the right lever. If the front caliper cable entry is on the ds, there is no issue.
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#5
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Non-aeros can provide a clean look given cable length is minimal. So often, folks run way too much cable between lever and caliper.
Besides esthetics, the only issue I've seen between an "upgraded" lever (to aero) and an old caliper brake concerns the location of the cable anchor on the brake. If it is the old '70s style on the non drive-side (nds) of the front caliper, it can be difficult to run the left aero lever to that position and maintain the caliper's center over the rim. This can be remedied easily by switching the front brake to the right lever. If the front caliper cable entry is on the ds, there is no issue.
Besides esthetics, the only issue I've seen between an "upgraded" lever (to aero) and an old caliper brake concerns the location of the cable anchor on the brake. If it is the old '70s style on the non drive-side (nds) of the front caliper, it can be difficult to run the left aero lever to that position and maintain the caliper's center over the rim. This can be remedied easily by switching the front brake to the right lever. If the front caliper cable entry is on the ds, there is no issue.
Pictures added of the current setup. I might be okay then.
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I deal with this situation all the time!
Don't take the calipers apart, it's wasted time imo. Put a couple of drops of synthetic oil (like Tri Flow) at the point between the two arms and leave it for a few hours, it will soak in.
The pads are no good, replace.
The cables are likely still good on this bike, just add some silicone lube to the inside of the housings and cut off any damaged/bent ends.
I use silicone lubes in plastic-lined housings and use grease in un-lined housings. These ones are lined I believe.
These caliper's springs are pretty stiff, and relaxing the springs (or using thicker pads to same effect) will effect a disproportionate improvement in actuation ease.
Remove the caliper and grab the end of the spring with pliers, bending slightly inward.
Relax both ends of the spring equally if possible or one end of the spring may tend to slip off of it's return peg on the arm.
Use care and experimentation to achieve the proper degree of relaxation.
Brakes should be hugely improved with all of the above. Black is usually the highest-gripping pad material in dry conditions, but also most prone to squealing (grippy pads squeal more).
These calipers require a 4mm hex socket (!!!) to center. I add a toothed washer (rotella dentata) at the mounting to prevent the caliper going off center as they tend to do.
Don't mess with the plastic knob at the pivot. It's a locking device to help hold the locknuts underneath from moving independently. It is not an adjuster!
Don't take the calipers apart, it's wasted time imo. Put a couple of drops of synthetic oil (like Tri Flow) at the point between the two arms and leave it for a few hours, it will soak in.
The pads are no good, replace.
The cables are likely still good on this bike, just add some silicone lube to the inside of the housings and cut off any damaged/bent ends.
I use silicone lubes in plastic-lined housings and use grease in un-lined housings. These ones are lined I believe.
These caliper's springs are pretty stiff, and relaxing the springs (or using thicker pads to same effect) will effect a disproportionate improvement in actuation ease.
Remove the caliper and grab the end of the spring with pliers, bending slightly inward.
Relax both ends of the spring equally if possible or one end of the spring may tend to slip off of it's return peg on the arm.
Use care and experimentation to achieve the proper degree of relaxation.
Brakes should be hugely improved with all of the above. Black is usually the highest-gripping pad material in dry conditions, but also most prone to squealing (grippy pads squeal more).
These calipers require a 4mm hex socket (!!!) to center. I add a toothed washer (rotella dentata) at the mounting to prevent the caliper going off center as they tend to do.
Don't mess with the plastic knob at the pivot. It's a locking device to help hold the locknuts underneath from moving independently. It is not an adjuster!
Last edited by dddd; 09-08-20 at 01:53 PM.
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@black02em2- When you take the calipers apart, clean all the bearing surfaces even though they are flat washers. Light film of grease will help them actuate better. I would not replace anything until everything was clean and lubed or replaced. The assess what you need to do vs what you want to do.
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#8
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I deal with this situation all the time!
Don't take the calipers apart, it's wasted time imo. Put a couple of drops of synthetic oil (like Tri Flow) at the point between the two arms and leave it for a few hours, it will soak in.
The pads are no good, replace.
The cables are likely still good on this bike, just add some silicone lube to the inside of the housings and cut off any damaged/bent ends.
I use silicone lubes in plastic-lined housings and use grease in un-lined housings. These ones are lined I believe.
These caliper's springs are pretty stiff, and relaxing the springs (or using thicker pads to same effect) will effect a disproportionate improvement in actuation ease.
Remove the caliper and grab the end of the spring with pliers, bending slightly inward.
Relax both ends of the spring equally if possible or one end of the spring may tend to slip off of it's return peg on the arm.
Use care and experimentation to achieve the proper degree of relaxation.
Brakes should be hugely improved with all of the above. Black is usually the highest-gripping pad material in dry conditions, but also most prone to squealing (grippy pads squeal more).
These calipers require a 4mm hex socket (!!!) to center. I add a toothed washer (rotella dentata) at the mounting to prevent the caliper going off center as they tend to do.
Don't mess with the plastic knob at the pivot. It's a locking device to help hold the locknuts underneath from moving independently. It is not an adjuster!
Don't take the calipers apart, it's wasted time imo. Put a couple of drops of synthetic oil (like Tri Flow) at the point between the two arms and leave it for a few hours, it will soak in.
The pads are no good, replace.
The cables are likely still good on this bike, just add some silicone lube to the inside of the housings and cut off any damaged/bent ends.
I use silicone lubes in plastic-lined housings and use grease in un-lined housings. These ones are lined I believe.
These caliper's springs are pretty stiff, and relaxing the springs (or using thicker pads to same effect) will effect a disproportionate improvement in actuation ease.
Remove the caliper and grab the end of the spring with pliers, bending slightly inward.
Relax both ends of the spring equally if possible or one end of the spring may tend to slip off of it's return peg on the arm.
Use care and experimentation to achieve the proper degree of relaxation.
Brakes should be hugely improved with all of the above. Black is usually the highest-gripping pad material in dry conditions, but also most prone to squealing (grippy pads squeal more).
These calipers require a 4mm hex socket (!!!) to center. I add a toothed washer (rotella dentata) at the mounting to prevent the caliper going off center as they tend to do.
Don't mess with the plastic knob at the pivot. It's a locking device to help hold the locknuts underneath from moving independently. It is not an adjuster!
Good to know for the plastic locknut. I have read that people have had issues getting these calipers centered because of it. Some have even removed that black nut.
For now what I gather is removing the calipers, cleaning/polishing them and greasing the pivot points. Then installing new cables/housings if I go aero levers. Should I be looking for a specific size of pads?
@black02em2- When you take the calipers apart, clean all the bearing surfaces even though they are flat washers. Light film of grease will help them actuate better. I would not replace anything until everything was clean and lubed or replaced. The assess what you need to do vs what you want to do.
#9
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Usual recommendation is for Kool Stops and vintage side pull Continentals or Eagle if there is room in the fork.
Kool Stop International - High Performance Bicycle Brake Pads Since 1977
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FWIW, I have run the 605's ancestor, the 500 (which has roots in the 1930s) and their fancier brother the Carrera, with Dia-Compe aero levers with no problems. I strongly recommend good quality stainless brake cables and good quality, lined brake cable housing, along with lubricating the brake pivots. I can see the value of working with the springs, and I can see the virtue of dismantling, cleaning, buffing, etc. - but good cables, line housing and lubricants go a long way toward fixing things. After those are done, before spending any money on brake pads, I would run sandpaper or a file over the actual braking surfaces of the existing pads to deglaze them. Seriously. I found deglazing the black stock pads on my Carreras yielded results comparable to expensive Scott-Matthauser pads.
If you decide to use the stock levers, the above tips will work. Aero levers allegedly give better results when braking from the hood rather than from the hooks of the bars, though I haven't really noticed a difference when I ride bikes with the same calipers but different levers.
If you decide to use the stock levers, the above tips will work. Aero levers allegedly give better results when braking from the hood rather than from the hooks of the bars, though I haven't really noticed a difference when I ride bikes with the same calipers but different levers.
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I would tend to choose levers by shape, whatever your preference in in this regard.
I'm OK with Weinman/DC levers since the wide body (and availability of cheap hoods) seems to best suit my own needs.
Hoods (lubed with rubbing alcohol or suds) can be fitted over the front of these levers, no need to remove them from the bars. Their clamps sometimes present a bit of added work getting the ends of the band securely latched onto the threaded square draw-nut, so I prefer to leave these levers in place when possible. The ferrules kind of get in the way of easily swapping hoods, but can be snuck in from the front after the new hood is on.
Be sure to securely tighten the band clamp screws before re-fitting the cables!
One more thing about the plastic knob is that, if it turns, then the nuts aren't tight. The knob slides off so the normal two nuts can be accessed with a thin wrench plus another wrench or socket. It's kind of a goofy system, especially with the 4mm hex thing on the end of the center bolt.
I'm OK with Weinman/DC levers since the wide body (and availability of cheap hoods) seems to best suit my own needs.
Hoods (lubed with rubbing alcohol or suds) can be fitted over the front of these levers, no need to remove them from the bars. Their clamps sometimes present a bit of added work getting the ends of the band securely latched onto the threaded square draw-nut, so I prefer to leave these levers in place when possible. The ferrules kind of get in the way of easily swapping hoods, but can be snuck in from the front after the new hood is on.
Be sure to securely tighten the band clamp screws before re-fitting the cables!
One more thing about the plastic knob is that, if it turns, then the nuts aren't tight. The knob slides off so the normal two nuts can be accessed with a thin wrench plus another wrench or socket. It's kind of a goofy system, especially with the 4mm hex thing on the end of the center bolt.
Last edited by dddd; 09-08-20 at 02:35 PM.
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#12
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New pads is almost a requirement for those 30 year old hardened bricks.
Usual recommendation is for Kool Stops and vintage side pull Continentals or Eagle if there is room in the fork.
Kool Stop International - High Performance Bicycle Brake Pads Since 1977
Usual recommendation is for Kool Stops and vintage side pull Continentals or Eagle if there is room in the fork.
Kool Stop International - High Performance Bicycle Brake Pads Since 1977
FWIW, I have run the 605's ancestor, the 500 (which has roots in the 1930s) and their fancier brother the Carrera, with Dia-Compe aero levers with no problems. I strongly recommend good quality stainless brake cables and good quality, lined brake cable housing, along with lubricating the brake pivots. I can see the value of working with the springs, and I can see the virtue of dismantling, cleaning, buffing, etc. - but good cables, line housing and lubricants go a long way toward fixing things. After those are done, before spending any money on brake pads, I would run sandpaper or a file over the actual braking surfaces of the existing pads to deglaze them. Seriously. I found deglazing the black stock pads on my Carreras yielded results comparable to expensive Scott-Matthauser pads.
If you decide to use the stock levers, the above tips will work. Aero levers allegedly give better results when braking from the hood rather than from the hooks of the bars, though I haven't really noticed a difference when I ride bikes with the same calipers but different levers.
If you decide to use the stock levers, the above tips will work. Aero levers allegedly give better results when braking from the hood rather than from the hooks of the bars, though I haven't really noticed a difference when I ride bikes with the same calipers but different levers.
I would tend to choose levers by shape, whatever your preference in in this regard.
I'm OK with Weinman/DC levers since the wide body (and availability of cheap hoods) seems to best suit my own needs.
Hoods (lubed with rubbing alcohol or suds) can be fitted over the front of these levers, no need to remove them from the bars. Their clamps sometimes present a bit of added work getting the ends of the band securely latched onto the threaded square draw-nut, so I prefer to leave these levers in place when possible. The ferrules kind of get in the way of easily swapping hoods, but can be snuck in from the front after the new hood is on.
Be sure to securely tighten the band clamp screws before re-fitting the cables!
One more thing about the plastic knob is that, if it turns, then the nuts aren't tight. The knob slides off so the normal two nuts can be accessed with a thin wrench plus another wrench or socket. It's kind of a goofy system, especially with the 4mm hex thing on the end of the center bolt.
I'm OK with Weinman/DC levers since the wide body (and availability of cheap hoods) seems to best suit my own needs.
Hoods (lubed with rubbing alcohol or suds) can be fitted over the front of these levers, no need to remove them from the bars. Their clamps sometimes present a bit of added work getting the ends of the band securely latched onto the threaded square draw-nut, so I prefer to leave these levers in place when possible. The ferrules kind of get in the way of easily swapping hoods, but can be snuck in from the front after the new hood is on.
Be sure to securely tighten the band clamp screws before re-fitting the cables!
One more thing about the plastic knob is that, if it turns, then the nuts aren't tight. The knob slides off so the normal two nuts can be accessed with a thin wrench plus another wrench or socket. It's kind of a goofy system, especially with the 4mm hex thing on the end of the center bolt.
#13
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Conveniently, it is accessible with the plastic cap left in place. The 4mm hex extension seems prone to breaking if one perhaps tried to center the caliper with the mounting nut still tight(?).
Maybe the greater intention of the plastic cap was to prevent owners from trying to tighten the pivot nut as part of routine pre-ride check?
Such tightening might leave the pivot over-tight, with the owner unable to re-adjust things without actually having a proper 10mm thin wrench.
The knurl on the knob confuses some into thinking it's some kind of adjuster, which it is not.
#14
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It's especially strange in that no bike mechanic likely has a 4mm socket handy most of the time.
Conveniently, it is accessible with the plastic cap left in place. The 4mm hex extension seems prone to breaking if one perhaps tried to center the caliper with the mounting nut still tight(?).
Maybe the greater intention of the plastic cap was to prevent owners from trying to tighten the pivot nut as part of routine pre-ride check?
Such tightening might leave the pivot over-tight, with the owner unable to re-adjust things without actually having a proper 10mm thin wrench.
The knurl on the knob confuses some into thinking it's some kind of adjuster, which it is not.
Conveniently, it is accessible with the plastic cap left in place. The 4mm hex extension seems prone to breaking if one perhaps tried to center the caliper with the mounting nut still tight(?).
Maybe the greater intention of the plastic cap was to prevent owners from trying to tighten the pivot nut as part of routine pre-ride check?
Such tightening might leave the pivot over-tight, with the owner unable to re-adjust things without actually having a proper 10mm thin wrench.
The knurl on the knob confuses some into thinking it's some kind of adjuster, which it is not.
#15
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All of the advice from @dddd is good, as always, but what he left out is that they weren't very good calipers to begin with. If you do what he says, they might perform well.
Aero levers generally have more leverage than their predecessors, so that will help as well.
Aero levers generally have more leverage than their predecessors, so that will help as well.
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I've had good results with the not very expensive Tektro levers (and Cane Creek - made by Tektro, same quality, some slightly different touches). A modest step up in power from older levers, work well and I find them a good fit for my hands. Cheap but I get good use out of them. Good cable and housing run-ins that allow changing cables without unwrapping and rarely have any issues at all, unlike my experience with some older aero levers.
Yes, I am a die-hard fan of aero levers. I wanted them in my big mileage years as a bike racer. Always wanted to be able to drape my hands over the tops; 5 years later, I saw them and had to have them. For my hands, the current Tektros are the best they've seen in 53 yeas of "10-speed" riding (except nothing matches the old MAFAC Racer levers for their wonderful lever's rolled undersides for not chafing fingers when pulling really hard when climbing)..
Ben
Yes, I am a die-hard fan of aero levers. I wanted them in my big mileage years as a bike racer. Always wanted to be able to drape my hands over the tops; 5 years later, I saw them and had to have them. For my hands, the current Tektros are the best they've seen in 53 yeas of "10-speed" riding (except nothing matches the old MAFAC Racer levers for their wonderful lever's rolled undersides for not chafing fingers when pulling really hard when climbing)..
Ben
#17
Senior Member
Thread Starter
I've had good results with the not very expensive Tektro levers (and Cane Creek - made by Tektro, same quality, some slightly different touches). A modest step up in power from older levers, work well and I find them a good fit for my hands. Cheap but I get good use out of them. Good cable and housing run-ins that allow changing cables without unwrapping and rarely have any issues at all, unlike my experience with some older aero levers.
Yes, I am a die-hard fan of aero levers. I wanted them in my big mileage years as a bike racer. Always wanted to be able to drape my hands over the tops; 5 years later, I saw them and had to have them. For my hands, the current Tektros are the best they've seen in 53 yeas of "10-speed" riding (except nothing matches the old MAFAC Racer levers for their wonderful lever's rolled undersides for not chafing fingers when pulling really hard when climbing)..
Ben
Yes, I am a die-hard fan of aero levers. I wanted them in my big mileage years as a bike racer. Always wanted to be able to drape my hands over the tops; 5 years later, I saw them and had to have them. For my hands, the current Tektros are the best they've seen in 53 yeas of "10-speed" riding (except nothing matches the old MAFAC Racer levers for their wonderful lever's rolled undersides for not chafing fingers when pulling really hard when climbing)..
Ben