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Electric bikes and bike shops

Old 12-12-19, 07:13 PM
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justinschulz9
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Electric bikes and bike shops

with the coming of electric bikes, what should mechanics do to better prepare themselves for repairing those motors.
i asked a similar question in a previous post, but where will this industry turn for more prepared bicycle shops/mechanics?
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Old 12-12-19, 09:36 PM
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Where it always has gone to for possible help. I suspect that more mechanics will learn Ebike service like they did conventional pedal bike service. From friends and fellow mechanics as they need to. The classic DC 101 type of schooling won't do the specific "if this on the meter then do that" style of diagnosis that our industry is moving toward. Manufacturer produced tech clinics will increase although be too few and far between. Andy
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Old 12-12-19, 09:41 PM
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A failed motor just gets replaced. Diagnosing is what is difficult, not repair.

Many ebike problems are software bugs, not really hardware failures.
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Old 12-12-19, 09:43 PM
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My guess is that the motors themselves will not be repairable, but the controllers, batteries and wiring will need diagnosis and repair. Likely the motor system suppliers will offer courses and tutorials and perhaps certifications. Basic DC electrical troubleshooting knowledge and a handheld meter will probably get a mechanic through most repairs, at least to the point of identifying the offending component, many of which I suspect will be poor or deteriorated connections, bad grounds and the like, as well as bad battery cells/packs.
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Old 12-12-19, 09:51 PM
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It's not answering the question (already addressed nicely above), but I think home mechanics will get on board too. I owned a Prius for ten years and did all the work on it myself. I found a great forum of like-minded hobbyists. Many of us bought factory manuals and diagnostic tools. That'll happen with ebikes too.
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Old 12-13-19, 07:33 AM
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Originally Posted by dsbrantjr
My guess is that the motors themselves will not be repairable, but the controllers, batteries and wiring will need diagnosis and repair. Likely the motor system suppliers will offer courses and tutorials and perhaps certifications. Basic DC electrical troubleshooting knowledge and a handheld meter will probably get a mechanic through most repairs, at least to the point of identifying the offending component, many of which I suspect will be poor or deteriorated connections, bad grounds and the like, as well as bad battery cells/packs.
Faulty wiring, bad batteries, burned out motors should be relatively easy to figure out. Electronic control systems should have some sort of built-in diagnostic, though I'm not sure they would be as specific as one would want. Faulty wiring should not be difficult to fix, but the rest of the stuff is likely to fall into the "replace until fixed" category. Controllers, displays, wiring harnesses are all relatively inexpensive. Batteries are not, though the trouble could be a bad cell or faulty BMS, both of which could be replaced.

A different issue is correcting a mechanical problem. I recently helped a friend with his rear hub motor. He had a lot of miles on it and the cartridge bearing on the drive side was bad. Because the spoke flanges on both sides were integral to the motor housing, we had to delace the wheel in order to open it up to get to the bearing. This effectively means that, for most owners, it won't be cost effective to do the repair so the whole wheel will be sent to the landfill. Few shops will open up a motor, even if the repair is simple, like a loose magnet, bad bearing, or faulty Hall sensors, when the customer can buy a new wheel/motor for cheaper than the labor. This sort of throw away culture is troublesome to me.

It's encouraging that there are more and more resources available on the internet that add to developing knowledge. Thank goodness for curious hobbyists.
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Old 12-13-19, 08:05 AM
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A somewhat different question; in the future will e-bikes continue to be sold in conventional LBSs along side standard pedal-only bikes or will there be dedicated e-bike only shops?
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Old 12-13-19, 09:49 AM
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Originally Posted by HillRider
A somewhat different question; in the future will e-bikes continue to be sold in conventional LBSs along side standard pedal-only bikes or will there be dedicated e-bike only shops?
Good question; probably depends on the size of the market. There are many "e" only shops in the "OC", at least two 10+ years old. I agree that diagnosis and simple repairs will be the primary skills a bike mechanic will need. Motors are time consuming to repair and at the current shop rate of $80 per hour, not feasible, controllers too difficult (probably) and batteries pretty dangerous (maybe repaired by a separate shop) IMO.
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Old 12-13-19, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by HillRider
A somewhat different question; in the future will e-bikes continue to be sold in conventional LBSs along side standard pedal-only bikes or will there be dedicated e-bike only shops?
I do not think there will be many e-bike only shops. In fact all the e-bike shops I know of also sell non-electric folding bikes and cargo bikes. Interesting because the LBS's and Co-op's I know won't touch my recumbent. Won't even look at it. It IS a bicycle though. Far more so than a lot of the electric assist projects they take on without blinking an eye. Go figure.
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Old 12-13-19, 10:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Moe Zhoost
Faulty wiring, bad batteries, burned out motors should be relatively easy to figure out. Electronic control systems should have some sort of built-in diagnostic, though I'm not sure they would be as specific as one would want. Faulty wiring should not be difficult to fix, but the rest of the stuff is likely to fall into the "replace until fixed" category. Controllers, displays, wiring harnesses are all relatively inexpensive. Batteries are not, though the trouble could be a bad cell or faulty BMS, both of which could be replaced.
My concern is will replacement wiring harnesses, controllers, displays, and even the motors and batteries be available in a few yrars for e-bikes sold today. E-bike sales are relatively small (at least in the US) and the industry is changing rapidly so there is no guarantee parts are going to be available. For examle batteries integrated into the frame are pretty specific, and nothing prevents a manufacturer from changing it in some very small but completely incompatible way. So future bike mechanics may have to give really bad news; "sorry can't get that part". Lets hope not.
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Old 12-13-19, 10:26 AM
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My take on it... I bought an eMTB from an ebike only shop. Regular LBS don't know anything about ebikes... and some of the employees hate them.
Ebike only shops will have a better selection to try out.
The good motors..Yamaha, Bosch, Brose are repairable, or at least can be worked on to change out bearings. Others...?
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Old 12-13-19, 11:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Eggman84
My concern is will replacement wiring harnesses, controllers, displays, and even the motors and batteries be available in a few years for e-bikes sold today.
I'd not be too concerned as long as you have one of the more popular systems. Manufactured e-bikes should have some replacement part support program. Kit systems may develop in a way that some parts could become unavailable; however even then you should be able to adapt other controller/displays or rebuild wiring harnesses. Motor units are probably on the disposable side of things unless it's a matter of a damaged drive gear, which are usually nylon. Batteries are no issue at all - they are constantly improving but still do the same thing: provide reliable voltage. Even if you have a custom-sized battery pack engineered specifically for your bike, it should be possible to rebuild it with new cells.
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Old 12-13-19, 01:48 PM
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Our shop has sold about a dozen ebikes in the past two seasons. Not cheapies, but good ones with mid drive. Our chief mechanic now has an ebike of his own and has found the weak spots to be wired connections and the battery.

Industry training is nearly non-existent, and the service work we have done has been done from experience with our own ebikes and with assist calls with Shimano and Bosch. Have not looked out on the web for any tutorials, but I suspect they are there and more will be on the way.
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Old 12-13-19, 06:54 PM
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I would guess it will be not dissimilar From DI2 and Hydralic brakes. Reading, playing, making mistakes, more use of computer diagnostics, tech seminars, friends

I think ebikes are not going to be a trend like fixies, but slowly become a big part of market and riders

I have a friend who is on his second (first was lower end and did not survive, current was over 7k and seems to be surviving) that he uses for mountain biking. He would not be biking otherwise.
I also am seeing more and more people commuting on them in my area......and as best I can tell these are added bike commuters, not people who switched from a regular bike.

all the good shops in my area are adding ebikes (of course many who have Specialized connections may have not option)
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Old 12-13-19, 11:17 PM
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Here in Portland there are a couple dedicated Ebike stores. There are also bike shops that deal with Ebike conversions. (Both recumbent-oriented shops also do conversions.) A good friend who's worked on bikes since the '80's just went through training for Shimano STEPS.
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Old 12-14-19, 09:55 AM
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Originally Posted by squirtdad
I would guess it will be not dissimilar From DI2 and Hydralic brakes. Reading, playing, making mistakes, more use of computer diagnostics, tech seminars, friends

I think ebikes are not going to be a trend like fixies, but slowly become a big part of market and riders

I have a friend who is on his second (first was lower end and did not survive, current was over 7k and seems to be surviving) that he uses for mountain biking. He would not be biking otherwise.
I also am seeing more and more people commuting on them in my area......and as best I can tell these are added bike commuters, not people who switched from a regular bike.

all the good shops in my area are adding ebikes (of course many who have Specialized connections may have not option)
I would guess it would be extremely dissimilar to Di2 and hydro brakes etc. Most ebikes (and mopeds), on the road, are not quality product at middling/high price tier that are engineered and worth the financial investment of repair. They're junker bikes with retrofits (either drop-in wheels or kits) and mods that either themselves failed or caused other things to fail.

Guy walks in with his cheapo $150 Chinese Amazon e-bike 1000W wheel that has sheered spokes from being underbuilt from Day 1, and a burned out hub motor from the user trying to overvolt it to get more moped speed to hit 30MPH on the MUT. What do you tell him, beyond "buy a new wheel"?
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Old 12-14-19, 11:48 AM
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Originally Posted by HillRider
A somewhat different question; in the future will e-bikes continue to be sold in conventional LBSs along side standard pedal-only bikes or will there be dedicated e-bike only shops?

Some motorbike manufacturers get into ebikes, so they likely will sell them through their motorbike dealerships. i assume those motorcycle manufacturers will cooperate with regular bicycle manufacturers or with the 3rd party bicycle manufacturers (same like Giant builds bikes for Trek now and some "manufacturers" use kinesis frames etc.).

We may not realize (or may even hate) it yet, but the ebike business will open a whole new world of riders and users. Like with many new inventions, as you add comfort, more people will use it. with an aging and "gaining" population taking the physical activity out of the equation will make ebikes popular.

Remember when TVs didn't have a remote and one had to get up from the couch to change volume or channel?
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Old 12-14-19, 05:50 PM
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We, at Full Moon Vista, are currently pondering our shop policies and whether ebikes not sold by us will be a part of our servicing in the future. We haven't yet been burned but we see so many cheaply made ands poorly supported non LBS sourced ones in for servicing the usual pedal bike type of needs. One would think that a LBS would be able and want to service these "standard" aspects of ebikes, at least. But we've had a few issues with wheel removal (hub based motors) and wiring connections and are finding that some of the "standard" bike bits are not really so standard. We remounted a disk caliper after it's unique adaptor had fallen off and gotten lost just a couple of weeks ago. Had to use a stack of washers and a non OEM adaptor to get the pads to line up well enough to send the bike out the door. The customer doesn't see why we are not willing to continue this type of McGiver repairs. (And that the customer was continuing to ride the bike as the brake was flopping about, rubbing and the mounting hardware was coming loose/falling off is a reason to maybe not have them as our liability anyway).

So I see some shops refusing to service the ebikes that don't have a support system in place, refusing to service ebikes not sold by them. Can't say I blame this choice. No flat tire repair profit can pay for a screwed up connector that isn't distributed in the USA. If a shop breaks the bike they own the repair too, no matter how cheap the bike is or how reassuring the customer initially seems to be at the drop off. Andy
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Old 12-14-19, 06:56 PM
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Y'all are on the right track..

As a rider/mechanic of both motorcycles and bicycles since the mid '60s and an electrician/building computerized control systems tech for the last 30 I am probably well qualified to make a comment or two.
After a few years of "shakedown" of the not so obvious problems and software bugs which will be for the most part completed within one or two more years 80% of problems will be poor connections. The next 10% will be mechanical failure (most due to damage) followed by most of the rest being battery issues. Most cycling enthusiasts will have no serious problem dealing with 99 of a hundred things they run into. A ten dollar electrical meter from the hardware store is all you will need. I think we (bikers in this loop) are aware of the problem that non bike stores will present. I can remember (and bought) motorcycles BITD sold through furniture and appliance stores as well as Sears and Roebuck. The box stores will flood the young Ebike market with cheap disposable machines. SMART bike shops will get on board early but restrict themselves to working only on in-house product or more likely adding a clear list of the major quality brands. This is already happening. We will be better for it in the long run because of the new engineering and thinking being introduced.
Note: wireless will be neat, but also introduce some difficult "conflicting signals" problems. (school building - I had to replace a six-figure automation system due to boy scout radio operated cars ).
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Old 12-14-19, 07:03 PM
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Y'all are on the right track..

As a rider/mechanic of both motorcycles and bicycles since the mid '60s and an electrician/building computerized control systems tech for the last 30 I am probably well qualified to make a comment or two.
After a few years of "shakedown" of the not so obvious problems and software bugs which will be for the most part completed within one or two more years 80% of problems will be poor connections. The next 10% will be mechanical failure (most due to damage) followed by most of the rest being battery issues. Most cycling enthusiasts will have no serious problem dealing with 99 of a hundred things they run into. A ten dollar electrical meter from the hardware store is all you will need. I think we (bikers in this loop) are aware of the problem that non bike stores will present. I can remember (and bought) motorcycles BITD sold through furniture and appliance stores as well as Sears and Roebuck. The box stores will flood the young Ebike market with cheap disposable machines. SMART bike shops will get on board early but restrict themselves to working only on in-house product or more likely adding a clear list of the major quality brands. This is already happening. We will be better for it in the long run because of the new engineering and thinking being introduced.
Note: wireless will be neat, but also introduce some difficult "conflicting signals" problems. (school building - I had to replace a six-figure automation system due to boy scout radio operated cars ).
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Old 12-14-19, 07:10 PM
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oops

Sorry about the double post. My mistake. But on a related note, If there is anyone out there into RF engineering or experience please input any info that might help. (strength of signal, range, what happens in a close pack? And you don't want the ugly details of what hand-held radios could do to digital signals of sensors!
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Old 12-15-19, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by grayEZrider
Sorry about the double post. My mistake. But on a related note, If there is anyone out there into RF engineering or experience please input any info that might help. (strength of signal, range, what happens in a close pack? And you don't want the ugly details of what hand-held radios could do to digital signals of sensors!
The wireless connectivity for Ebike systems is generally Bluetooth. There's many more consumer devices using Bluetooth than Ebike systems and they seem to be reasonably reliable and isolated from one another.
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Old 12-16-19, 12:48 PM
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Originally Posted by HerrKaLeun
Some motorbike manufacturers get into ebikes, so they likely will sell them through their motorbike dealerships. i assume those motorcycle manufacturers will cooperate with regular bicycle manufacturers or with the 3rd party bicycle manufacturers (same like Giant builds bikes for Trek now and some "manufacturers" use kinesis frames etc.).

We may not realize (or may even hate) it yet, but the ebike business will open a whole new world of riders and users. Like with many new inventions, as you add comfort, more people will use it. with an aging and "gaining" population taking the physical activity out of the equation will make ebikes popular.

Remember when TVs didn't have a remote and one had to get up from the couch to change volume or channel?
most of the big bike manufactures are offering ebikes in mountain, road and commuting/comfort areas i.e https://www.specialized.com/us/en/electric-bikes

My understanding it that in the Netherlands, ebikes are rapidly outselling regular bikes
https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...es-netherlands

https://cyclingindustry.news/how-the-e-bike-has-become-the-star-performer-for-the-netherlands/

I agree that ebikes will bring new people onto the streets (once they get past the sticker shop) I see people commuting on ebikes in my area that I can pretty much guarantee would not be commuting on a non ebike
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Old 12-16-19, 08:00 PM
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Oh, man, do not service any ebike that you did not sell to begin with. There is a lot of junk out there and the shop cannot afford to be burdened with a failed part that is irreplaceable. We turn them down every time they come in. Hub drives are the worst. The connectors, although not too tough to deal with, are often times very low quality and break quite easily. We learned our lesson the hard way.
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Old 12-17-19, 10:15 AM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero
Oh, man, do not service any ebike that you did not sell to begin with. There is a lot of junk out there and the shop cannot afford to be burdened with a failed part that is irreplaceable. We turn them down every time they come in. Hub drives are the worst. The connectors, although not too tough to deal with, are often times very low quality and break quite easily. We learned our lesson the hard way.
Good advice as there is also the problem of some cheapo Ebikes that come with poor quality chargers combined with questionable batteries and connectors that can cause a fire. The shop will get blamed if the customers house burns down after getting it serviced there.
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