Helix Update?
#2026
Senior Member
True, this is the place to discuss Bromptons and Bike Fridays.
#2027
Senior Member
Current update
The March update has come at last!
The assembly process had to be restructured, some part of the locking mechanism had to be refined, The factory had to be tidied up, and two more hands had to be hired for the finishing job. These technicalities behind, they should now be on the road to full production. No numbers yet on production rates for the remaining 1700 odd orders in queue.
Peter addresses some concerns that came at the forum. Yes, the bicycle will just accommodate in a standard 62" suitcase. The cardboard packages in which the bike ships to customers are 65", because of cardboard strength.
Peter addresses in great detail the concerns about the strength of the helix mechanism and the prospect of dirt getting into the helix, sit post and between wheels and frame. If I understood correctly, the mechanism is somehow self cleaning. The helix is built to withstand am astronomical number of foldings.
Mudguards are under design. Peter hopes mudguards, universal front bag adapter and cases, both hard and soft, to be ready for summer.
Peter also addresses the issue of weight. The frame is not going to change in the near future. However, some parts may be replaced, saving up to 1.5 pounds. The prospect of weight just below 20 pounds for 10 speed bike is not trivial but feasible.
Peter also addresses the issue of tires. Additional high quality 24" tires from Kenda to be available from the site, later.
Will I get my helices for the summer vacation? (I am in the 1300's). Holding fingers... 👌
The assembly process had to be restructured, some part of the locking mechanism had to be refined, The factory had to be tidied up, and two more hands had to be hired for the finishing job. These technicalities behind, they should now be on the road to full production. No numbers yet on production rates for the remaining 1700 odd orders in queue.
Peter addresses some concerns that came at the forum. Yes, the bicycle will just accommodate in a standard 62" suitcase. The cardboard packages in which the bike ships to customers are 65", because of cardboard strength.
Peter addresses in great detail the concerns about the strength of the helix mechanism and the prospect of dirt getting into the helix, sit post and between wheels and frame. If I understood correctly, the mechanism is somehow self cleaning. The helix is built to withstand am astronomical number of foldings.
Mudguards are under design. Peter hopes mudguards, universal front bag adapter and cases, both hard and soft, to be ready for summer.
Peter also addresses the issue of weight. The frame is not going to change in the near future. However, some parts may be replaced, saving up to 1.5 pounds. The prospect of weight just below 20 pounds for 10 speed bike is not trivial but feasible.
Peter also addresses the issue of tires. Additional high quality 24" tires from Kenda to be available from the site, later.
Will I get my helices for the summer vacation? (I am in the 1300's). Holding fingers... 👌
Last edited by AvnerBen; 03-18-19 at 06:10 AM.
#2028
Senior Member
Swapping parts for a weight savings of 1.5 lbs. is not going to create an under-20 lbs. 10-speed Helix.
#2029
Member
Join Date: Nov 2017
Posts: 41
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 20 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
I think it's rather good that Peter addresses all the points described here. Indeed 1.5 pounds knock-off is not going to drop the whole under 20 pounds but I'd rather have the founder and CEO of helix give a reasonable, albeit disappointing to some, estimate. I know all too many people in the industry (CEOs included) who'd have waved around the prospect of major optimisation and room for progress. It seems to me like Peter says "enough". He redesigned the bike fully. He took painstakingly long to bring his vision to a compromised by realistic outcome, and I for one appreciate the attitude he's displaying. Development creep and shifting goalposts is a scourge.
good luck producing/getting the bikes!
good luck producing/getting the bikes!
#2030
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 339
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 38 Times
in
20 Posts
b) Even if he can somehow shave 1.5lbs, 10 speed bike will be 23.5lbs, not "just below 20 pounds".
#2031
Widely Despised
For the sake of accuracy, the update didn't say "under" or "below" 20 pounds.
Even a 1.5# reduction looks costly.
But my "costly" might be someone else's cheap.
$500 might do it, but I wouldn't spend it to make the change myself.
If Helix offered a weight reduction package based upon substituting lighter
components, this could be pretty cost effective...much cheaper than our
buying duplicate but lighter components after receiving the new bike.
I'd rather have Peter select the components, Helix do the assembly, while
I do no work other than paying a little extra. I could go for that.
Even a 1.5# reduction looks costly.
But my "costly" might be someone else's cheap.
$500 might do it, but I wouldn't spend it to make the change myself.
If Helix offered a weight reduction package based upon substituting lighter
components, this could be pretty cost effective...much cheaper than our
buying duplicate but lighter components after receiving the new bike.
I'd rather have Peter select the components, Helix do the assembly, while
I do no work other than paying a little extra. I could go for that.
Last edited by Revoltingest; 03-18-19 at 11:49 AM.
#2032
Senior Member
a) Exactly WHAT parts? Helix doesn't have that many parts to shave weight to begin with, and I highly doubt they can shave that much without significantly increasing the price.
b) Even if he can somehow shave 1.5lbs, 10 speed bike will be 23.5lbs, not "just below 20 pounds".
b) Even if he can somehow shave 1.5lbs, 10 speed bike will be 23.5lbs, not "just below 20 pounds".
1. custom parts - dropouts, swingarm, wheel to-wheel-connection - up to half pound.
2. Other components - saddle, cranksets and rims - up to one pound.
#2033
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2016
Posts: 78
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
3 Posts
I know we were asked not to share too much from the backer portal, but I think the issue of weight has been so tediously over-discussed here that having anything other than the full quote from Peter regarding weight is doing him a disservice. Here it is (this is just a small portion of the update):
Sounds to me like he first identifies a couple of areas for weight reduction that may be possible in the future, then mentions for those with more money than sense there are further possibilities if you are willing to spend on replacing standard components with currently available light weight parts. If I recall correctly, he also mentioned in a previous update that he went overboard with the Ti tube wall thickness when ordering it, and that they could get away with a thinner tube. Personally I don't really care, I just want to get my bike one day
The weight
I wanted to quickly address the weight of the bike one more time to lend some insight so that anyone who wishes to reduce the weight will know what to do.
The weight comes from 3 specific areas. One is the frame which for the time being will not be changing. The other is the custom parts specifically the dropouts, the swingarm feet and the wheel to wheel connector which may see about a 1/2 pound reduction in the overall weight of Helix. Lastly, there are three components that have become available in the last year, specifically lighter saddle, cranksets and rims. These will further reduce the weight of Helix by about 1 pound.
Of course, for anyone wishing to build an ultra light version of Helix, the possibilities are only limited by your willingness to spend as there is a huge aftermarket of standard components that are compatible with Helix. Everything from light weight stems, handlebars, pedals, cranksets, hubs, spokes, cassettes etc. With some loose calculations a 20 pound 10-speed Helix is well within reach.
One important note when comparing to other bikes is to consider that Helix has 160 mm disk brakes, has a normal drivetrain, accommodates riders up to 6'6", has 24" wheels and does not leave out any conveniences on the fold such as staying together when folded, standing, rolling, not dropping the chain, proper cable management etc. Future iterations will of course be a bit lighter but Helix is very rideable and functional in its current state.
I wanted to quickly address the weight of the bike one more time to lend some insight so that anyone who wishes to reduce the weight will know what to do.
The weight comes from 3 specific areas. One is the frame which for the time being will not be changing. The other is the custom parts specifically the dropouts, the swingarm feet and the wheel to wheel connector which may see about a 1/2 pound reduction in the overall weight of Helix. Lastly, there are three components that have become available in the last year, specifically lighter saddle, cranksets and rims. These will further reduce the weight of Helix by about 1 pound.
Of course, for anyone wishing to build an ultra light version of Helix, the possibilities are only limited by your willingness to spend as there is a huge aftermarket of standard components that are compatible with Helix. Everything from light weight stems, handlebars, pedals, cranksets, hubs, spokes, cassettes etc. With some loose calculations a 20 pound 10-speed Helix is well within reach.
One important note when comparing to other bikes is to consider that Helix has 160 mm disk brakes, has a normal drivetrain, accommodates riders up to 6'6", has 24" wheels and does not leave out any conveniences on the fold such as staying together when folded, standing, rolling, not dropping the chain, proper cable management etc. Future iterations will of course be a bit lighter but Helix is very rideable and functional in its current state.
Last edited by MrFlamey; 03-19-19 at 02:46 AM.
#2034
Senior Member
I don't think weight has been tediously over-discussed here. Some people just don't like talking about it, and for them there are dozens of other topics right here on this forum they can tediously over-discuss.
#2035
Senior Member
Likes For FolderBeholder:
#2036
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 16
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
For instance, what about steel? I got a Torelli Zona Cross a couple of months ago and it feels pretty good to me. Is it possible to fabricate the Helix with standard triple butted tubes in the main (only) "triangle"? Does steel make the fabrication easier and cheaper? If you use overly thick titanium in the main tubes does that wreck the legendary feel of a titanium frame? Is there actually any such thing as a legendary feel using titanium if you aren't building a diamond frame anyway? How much weight does fine triple butted steel add to the build vs. over-sized plumbing pipe titanium?
#2037
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2017
Posts: 1,544
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 800 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 247 Times
in
211 Posts
First, the legendary feel of titanium is... partly legendary several titanium frames do not provide this legendary feel (some are too stiff and uncomfortable, some are too soft and lack rigidity...).
Second, it depends of the type of titanium used and indeed of the diameter and thickness of the tubes.
Third, it depends of the shape of the frame and indeed, helix frame is different from a diamond frame what should change the feeling. For instance, the titanium fork and rear triangle of the Brompton do not provide any improvement on comfort, they just weight less than their steel equivalent. When I see the Seattle Cycle Burke, I have many doubts about its comfort.
About steel, yes, part of the costs will be reduced if the frame is made of steel instead of titanium but the complex CNC parts of Helix (and related costs) will remain.
The price of steel and weight of a steel frame depends a lot of the type of steel used. If you use the new stainless steel type like Columbus XCR or Reynolds 953, I am pretty sure you can make a frame that weight less than the current frame but the cost will probably not be much lower and again, there are all these CNC machined parts and complex design that impact both weight and cost.
Second, it depends of the type of titanium used and indeed of the diameter and thickness of the tubes.
Third, it depends of the shape of the frame and indeed, helix frame is different from a diamond frame what should change the feeling. For instance, the titanium fork and rear triangle of the Brompton do not provide any improvement on comfort, they just weight less than their steel equivalent. When I see the Seattle Cycle Burke, I have many doubts about its comfort.
About steel, yes, part of the costs will be reduced if the frame is made of steel instead of titanium but the complex CNC parts of Helix (and related costs) will remain.
The price of steel and weight of a steel frame depends a lot of the type of steel used. If you use the new stainless steel type like Columbus XCR or Reynolds 953, I am pretty sure you can make a frame that weight less than the current frame but the cost will probably not be much lower and again, there are all these CNC machined parts and complex design that impact both weight and cost.
#2038
Member
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 26
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17 Post(s)
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Great point. I know you're also referring to the quality of steel used. From what I know, the highest-quality steel endures time and wears better than the low-grade steel. I'm interested in the quality of the source materials more than the weight of those materials.
#2040
Widely Despised
#2042
Senior Member
If you like the Change Bike... then get one. No harm, no foul.
#2043
Newbie
Join Date: Mar 2019
Location: https://t.me/pump_upp
Posts: 16
Bikes: CharlesraP
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
I believe this will be a quality product. They will start selling preorders in March. I have investigated Ti frames and it is not easy. The atmosphere affects the weld, hence it is more complicated than steel or aluminum. Realistically I would either do it in the USA or Ukraine. I have connections in Ukraine, and they have an abundant supply of legally obtained titanium I learned that there is a large grey market for Titanium that is not legal. Honestly last year sales doubled, and so far this year we are experiencing another doubling.....so a four fold increase in a short timespan. I have no idea what is going on but we are not setup for much more of an increase.
#2044
Widely Despised
I've no doubt that Changebike is better for some people & applications.
But the fold is too large for me, & the Helix is cooler, so I'll stick with it.
Last edited by Revoltingest; 03-25-19 at 07:18 AM.
#2045
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 339
Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 105 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 38 Times
in
20 Posts
If you ignore the folded size (I do, as long as they fit in car trunk) Change BIke is better in every possible ways (Cheaper, lighter, objectively stronger, comes in multiple sizes, can use suspension fork and knobbies, etc)
If you value the folded size a lot, Helix is better. But then there are folders with smaller wheels.. (Brompton, EEZZ, etc)
#2046
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: SF Bay Area
Posts: 3,463
Bikes: Trident Spike 2 recumbent trike w/ e-assist
Mentioned: 25 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1321 Post(s)
Liked 374 Times
in
288 Posts
Isn't the Change bike either 26" or 700c? That makes comparison like apples and oranges, regardless of fold.
#2047
Senior Member
Sort of. I *think* the premise of the Helix is that at 24", it offers a near "full size" ride compared to most folders that have only 16" or 20" wheels. At the same time, unlike ChangeBike or other full size bikes that can be folded or disassembled, the Helix offers to fold down to near Brompton-sized folded dimensions without having to disengage any parts but still offer the compact form factor that a smaller wheeled bike offers when transporting folded. So, the Helix might represent that "sweet spot" between functionality, rideability, and foldability. We're all just waiting for actual use reviews from the new owners!
#2048
Senior Member
Change Bike is full size and folds in half like Montague and some old (I think they still exist in Japan) Bridgestones. The comparison to Helix is uhhhh ridiculous.
#2049
Senior Member
So, 5 bikes shipped in February. 5 bikes shipped in March. Any sign of that rate improving?
#2050
55+ Club,...
Join Date: Aug 2012
Location: Somewhere in New York, NY
Posts: 4,326
Bikes: 9+,...
Mentioned: 11 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1115 Post(s)
Liked 849 Times
in
593 Posts
I agree. Comparing the Helix to the Change Bike is like comparing an SUV to a hatchback,... Totally rediculous.
__________________
If it wasn't for you meddling kids,...