queerpunk

It's a bit more robust than that.

I'm not a sprinter, so not the best-suited to speak on this - I'm sure some others on this board will have some very good things to say.

But, to simplify it so that you can get a sense of the type of things going on here -

Let's say Rider A and Rider B are racing against each other. Rider A has a better top speed, but Rider B has a better jump/acceleration. Rider B is going to try to go to the front, keep rider A behind him (overlapping wheels, taking him toward the rail, keeping the pace slow, blocking rider A's route to the front with his bike and body). Rider A, on the other hand, will want to get to the front and ramp up speed to such a high speed that rider B will have a very hard time overtaking.

Sometimes riders try to dance around a bit to try to catch their opponent looking in the wrong direction. Or, like in the video I showed you, Forstemann took Hoy by surprise to open a gap. Forstemann may have noticed that Hoy had on a very large gear that would be hard for him to accelerate fast. Forstemann knew that he would have a hard time beating Hoy in a head-to-head sprint; but Forstemann has the best standing start in the world. So: how does he try to beat Hoy?

There's a ton more. Like: drafting helps you save energy, but the power demands at these speeds are so high, and the races often come down to a measure of centimeters, that though the intuitive approach is to let your opponent start the sprint so that you can draft, often high-level sprinters will want to lead the sprint out and hold on to a leading position, forcing the other to come around.

Also, because of the way velodromes are shaped, there's a ton of positional tactics, too. Jumping from higher up means that you can drop down and gain speed. Also, forcing somebody to try to come around you in a corner means two things - one is that they have a longer distance to go (wider radius), and two is that at some point they have to go "uphill" on a banked track, even slightly, which takes some of their speed away.

This is far from a complete accounting of the concerns of sprinting - it's just the tip of the iceberg to give you a sense of the kinds of calculations that go into one of these very straightforward-seeming races.

gtrob

Match sprinting is a very hard thing to explain lol.

As simple as I can put it, lets say both riders feel that going first is a death sentence. An even matched race, you are better off in 2nd in the draft at 60kmh until the very end where you slingshot around. At the same time, 2nd rider only works if you are on the wheel, so if you can get the jump on the other guy and gap him, he will never catch you. Add to that 750m is a lot longer than 250m, so the earlier you go the slower you go.

So if BOTH guys want the same thing, imagine how it would play out.

taras0000

In the race tactics thread, these things get explained pretty well. @carleton has also posted a few youtube vids and some explanations/analyses that do a pretty good job and are worth checking out, but ask as many questions about what's going on as you want, because at some point, that's how we all learned how to race

taras0000

I don't know why, but I just want to reach through the screen and slap those two for wearing tall socks. Can't explain why, but I hate it! Tall socks owned by sprinters should all be burned! Sockless all the way.

carleton

https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cycl...e-tactics.html

intransit1217

Very cool ! Thank you, gentlemen.

carleton

When the athletes are evenly matched (this is usually the case late in tournaments...even local tournaments) and the race will be won and lost by a few inches, everything matters.

WhatsYoCadence

awesome, thanks for the links. I couldn't find anything about loner bikes. I'd rather not bring my bike on the plane I f I can. do you know if they have loaners?

SBUndefeated201

I believe the Brian Piccolo Park has old steel track bikes for rental. But if you come early on Monday nights (6:15ish), there are a couple of Jamis Soniks and steel Fujis for use. You shouldn't have a problem using a bike there.

Murakami

I'm looking at getting these chinese carbon bars for my pursuit: 2013 High quality hongfu new carbon handlebar,carbon tt handlebar bicycle parts, View carbon tt handlebar, OEM Product Details from Shenzhen Hongfu Sports Goods Co., Ltd. on Alibaba.com

I don't like ski extensions and would rather an R-bend, anyone know where I could get these separtely? I still need to contact these guys re stack height as they only seem to supplu one spacer.

carleton

Assuming it's the standard diameter, any well-equiped local triathlon shop will have different extensions in stock (alu or carbon) for you to buy.

The tricky part will be the proprietary risers.

The best and most adjustable system that I've seen is the 3T family of aerobars. They are the closest you can get to what the Brits use. Pricy, but worth it.

Murakami

I'm getting finicky, but they all seem to be gloss, whereas the bars would be matt, lol, I'll keep searching. Thanks

The hong fu seem similar to the ADR version: ADR Ultimate TT Bars | ADR Carbon Ltd But they have a warning link there about buying straight from China. I think they're new frame is also Hong Fu, which is odd as bike I have from them was not a generic Chinese import. Anyway, the ADR come with two spacers, 20mm and 10mm

I'll just email Hong Fu as this bike seems to have them: https://hongfu-bikes.en.alibaba.com/p..._HF_FM376.html

carleton

Matte:




Most (if not all) aluminum extensions will be matte.

You can get these locally within a week, if they don't already have them in stock.

Murakami

Thanks Carelton, I really didn't mean for you to go looking for stuff. I appreciate it.

taras0000

Carelton does this as much for newbs as he does for himself. You have to understand that Carelton is different. He doesn't sustain and repair himself with food like you or me, but on tips and good deeds he does for others. In fact, he has harvested so much of this sustenance for himself that he is currently one of the few people in this galaxy that can put out over 2100 Watts.

WhatsYoCadence

See.. I still don't really understand watts. When I go on strava and I see a climb someone did who has a power meter. the KOM never has more than 500 watts. And then I hear all this track talk about 2000 watts. Can anyone give me some watt guidance?

carleton

+1

I also can's stop dancing...otherwise the world will explode.

carleton

It's like this:


VS this:


or



VS this:




The major difference is TIME.

Sprinters can apply huge amounts of power, but for very short periods of time...like under a minute (hence, the very high max power numbers). The endurance runners won't even be warmed up by the time Sprinters are done with half of their workouts So, their max wattage is low, but they can ride at a much higher average power for MUCH longer than sprinters.

The reason you hear about watts so much on the track is because track races are MUCH shorter than in any other discipline of cycling except for BMX.

carleton

To make it even more simple. Watts to cyclists are what Horse Power is to automobiles. More isn't necessarily better.

Read up on "Muscle Fiber Types" for a general understanding.

Dalai

Force in Newtons times velocity in m/s = power in Watts. Can be discussed in many ways.

Strava would be suggesting average Watts for the duration of the climb, the 2000 Watts discussed above would be more like peak watts or extremely short output. Bigger units should be able to produce more Watts in total, so you will often read about Watts / per Kg, shorter durations higher Watts...

Velocirapture

What sort of drills do the points-specialists incorporate especially/ focus on in training? (a particular type of interval? loads of 500s? pursuit efforts?)
ta

carleton

Every really good points racer I know is also good at criterium racing and I'd imagine that's where they do the majority of their training, on the road somehow.

One of the most directly-related track drills that I've seen is one where a rider would motorpace behind a motorcycle/scooter for a prescribed number of laps at a given pace then on the "sprint lap" try to pull even with the motorbike. Then the rider would settle back in behind the motor for x number of laps again. Rinse. Repeat.

queerpunk

thing about being a point race specialist is that there are a lot of different ways to be a points race specialist. locally, i have two rivals - one who won the points race series, and one who won the points race state championship. the first guy is a pursuit specialist, and he'll try to get away with one other rider. that's it. he won't really work if he's away with two. the second guy can survive working in a long-distance move (whether or not it laps the field), but he'd rather keep things together and suck up points in the sprint. [then there's me. i can do each of those things, but not as well as each of those two guys. so i'm kind of ****ed]

anyway, it comes down to looking at your strengths, and also improving your weaknesses.

in the winter, i do points race simulations on rollers. these involve repeated sprint intervals (enduro style sprints - 500s, like you mention), and when i'm feeling good they fly right into a 3-minute interval. early in my work with these, my 'off' time is truly off, and when i'm really going good, off is more like sweet spot (high sub-threshold).

i also do sprint work, some pursuit work, and some vo2max work. sprint work helps my jump, pursuit or team pursuit work helps just about everything (maybe 5-minute-and-under power is really the hallmark of a good track enduro), and vo2max work is kind of like a lot of other anaerobic work... good to improve your power when the going gets rough, or your ability to keep riding at all when the going gets rough.

carleton is right about overlap between points racers and crit racers. similarly, there are a lot of different ways to be good but ultimately you're going to need a good jump to stay with accelerations, good medium-term power to stick when it gets hot, and a halfway decent kick.

you also need a good tactical nose and there are no intervals that help with that.

Velocirapture

cool, thanks queerpunk and Carleton. Sounds like i'm mostly on the right track. Prolly need more pursuit training though :-/

queerpunk

couldn't hurt. it's a real sweet spot area to target that makes you fast as hell. i can think of no downsides.