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(indexed) Downtube shifters should make comeback

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(indexed) Downtube shifters should make comeback

Old 11-15-18, 12:17 PM
  #176  
79pmooney
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Originally Posted by manapua_man
This.

I've yet to see a single person IRL who actually wants to go back to DT shifters on newer bikes. Everyone I know that owns a bike with DT shifters either just likes the aesthetic or picked up an older bike as a beater/commuter.
Granted, no longer "newer" but when I ordered my custom (2007), I had it built with a "braze-on" for the SunTour top mounted DT shifter. If I were doing it over now, I'd make the same choice. That bike is what I want to ride. Never had any regrets when I got on it. Absolutely love the shifting on that bike! So now you know one.

Ben
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Old 11-15-18, 12:29 PM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK
...However, I think we're to a point where there is just not a lot of benefit of DT shifters over the brifters. And, even less so if one tosses in Di2/EPS.
In my opinion, the electric shifting scenario (especially with it's associated higher cost and occasional reliability issues) puts friction DT levers on an even higher relative level, all things considered.
Same with internal cabling and the much-maligned frequent failure of cables in today's integrated shifters.
I've known many fellow riders who missed rides due to either their cable having failed or because of an electric power failure.
On one recent morning ride, at our first re-group, the man I was speaking with collapsed with a full cardiac arrest incident as we were talking. We had an emergency-room doctor on our ride who actually was not present at that point because his cable had failed inside of his integrated shifter during the first few miles. It was only the arrival within a minute of a rider schooled in nursing care who was able to diagnose his condition and begin the correct life-sustaining actions.
And I have been at several rides where an arriving rider soon departed for home before even getting out of the parking lot because of no electrical power to his/her shifting aparatus.
And riders with downtube levers more often are able to maintain their shift cabling at home (versus down-time and skipped rides as integrated-shifted bikes sit in the shop).
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Old 11-15-18, 12:30 PM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney
Granted, no longer "newer" but when I ordered my custom (2007), I had it built with a "braze-on" for the SunTour top mounted DT shifter. If I were doing it over now, I'd make the same choice. That bike is what I want to ride. Never had any regrets when I got on it. Absolutely love the shifting on that bike! So now you know one.

Ben
Lets face it, this site is hardly a good representation of what we're likely to encounter in the real world.

IRL the only time I ever really interact with anyone that even has a custom bike is at larger organized events.

It'd be amusing to see what a poll regarding DT shifters etc. on this site looks like though.

Last edited by manapua_man; 11-15-18 at 12:33 PM.
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Old 11-15-18, 12:41 PM
  #179  
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Originally Posted by dddd
I think that you may have hinted at the true difference between a rider/driver and an enthusiast.
Some of us enjoy the added dimension or challenge of friction shifting, AND are aware of key benefits that non-enthusiasts rarely even imagine.
Classic example of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
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Old 11-15-18, 12:54 PM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Classic example of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
If it weren't for logical fallacies BF would be like 3 posts.
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Old 11-15-18, 12:57 PM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Classic example of the "No True Scotsman" fallacy.
It's hard for me to imagine where you are coming from with that statement.

Are you a CAT-# racer who needs the incremental cumulative benefit of every new "improvement" available?
Maybe you have a very good shop looking after your bike, visited regularly?

Again, I just don't know. Perhaps it's just that your riding position is off so that reaching down to shift greatly affects comfort or control, or that (for same reason) you find it difficult and uncomfortable to move quickly enough into and out of the seated position.
I do know that marketing plays huge, and that people tend to be creatures of habit.
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Old 11-15-18, 01:01 PM
  #182  
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Originally Posted by dddd
I've known many fellow riders who missed rides due to either their cable having failed or because of an electric power failure.
...
And riders with downtube levers more often are able to maintain their shift cabling at home (versus down-time and skipped rides as integrated-shifted bikes sit in the shop).
I met a guy on a century ride stuck at the first rest stop with a rear derailleur cable failure. If it had been flat, I think he could have completed the ride, but several big hills were ahead of us.

I should toss a couple of cables in my bag next time, but so far no cable issues with my Campy shifters.

I do all of my own maintenance, although I've heard digging out broken cable bits from some shifters is a major pain.
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Old 11-15-18, 01:25 PM
  #183  
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Originally Posted by dddd
It's hard for me to imagine where you are coming from with that statement.

Are you a CAT-# racer who needs the incremental cumulative benefit of every new "improvement" available?
Maybe you have a very good shop looking after your bike, visited regularly?

Again, I just don't know. Perhaps it's just that your riding position is off so that reaching down to shift greatly affects comfort or control, or that (for same reason) you find it difficult and uncomfortable to move quickly enough into and out of the seated position.
I do know that marketing plays huge, and that people tend to be creatures of habit.

I'm someone who rides roads, about 1000 miles a month in the spring summer and fall, has used DT shifters and prefers virtually any handlebar mounted placement. My placement preference says nothing about my level of enthusiasm, and I suggest you actually look up what the "No True Scotsman" fallacy is before you try to make this personal. Guess what? Enthusiast bicyclists have different things they're enthusiastic about. My riding position is fine, BTW. I also like to get out of the saddle a lot because I find it fun, and I don't particularly want to have to choose between that and shifting on any given stretch of ground. You may look at shifting as some sort of performance art, and being adept at multiple shifter positions as some kind of needed virtuosity to prove enthusiasm, I look at it as something I want to function well so I can ride fast.

Look, I'm not saying you're wrong for appreciating the aspects of biking that you do, but denigrating the enthusiasm of people who don't share that particular appreciation is the phoniest-looking kind of snobbishness.

I'll take my ability to shift gears in the middle of a steep grade and accelerate while climbing over a perfectly executed reach down and shift both derailleurs every time. I don't race, but I'm wayyyyyy more interested in the performance of my legs than the elegance of my shifting motions.
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Old 11-15-18, 01:28 PM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by manapua_man
Lets face it, this site is hardly a good representation of what we're likely to encounter in the real world.

IRL the only time I ever really interact with anyone that even has a custom bike is at larger organized events.

It'd be amusing to see what a poll regarding DT shifters etc. on this site looks like though.
I took one of my rare, out-of-area, urban "errand" rides yesterday on my mostly-stock 1985 Peugeot PH501 road bike (with a thick "rope"-style lock Velcro'd onto the top- and seat-tubes). Despite the smoky conditions, I saw a few relatively casual-looking riders out riding older road bikes with DT shifters.
One guy I saw practically sprinting away from a stop light, gaining distance on the accelerating cars while shifting what looked like old friction levers.
That was my view of the "real world" yesterday at least.
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Old 11-15-18, 01:44 PM
  #185  
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[QUOTE=livedarklions;20664581]
...Look, I'm not saying you're wrong for appreciating the aspects of biking that you do, but denigrating the enthusiasm of people who don't share that particular appreciation is the phoniest-looking kind of snobbishness...QUOTE]

No "denigration" of any kind expressed, implied or intended.

I didn't mean to criticize any rider buying newer "better" stuff, or having others maintain their bike on a tight schedule, since those things are good for the bike industry and enthusiasts often like to try different (often newer) stuff.

Just saying that riders in many cases have rediscovered the virtues of older shifting apparatus, and will likely continue to do so. I've built quite a few bikes for such people.
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Old 11-15-18, 01:53 PM
  #186  
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[QUOTE=dddd;20664614]
Originally Posted by livedarklions
...Look, I'm not saying you're wrong for appreciating the aspects of biking that you do, but denigrating the enthusiasm of people who don't share that particular appreciation is the phoniest-looking kind of snobbishness...QUOTE]

No "denigration" of any kind expressed, implied or intended.

I didn't mean to criticize any rider buying newer "better" stuff, or having others maintain their bike on a tight schedule, since those things are good for the bike industry and enthusiasts often like to try different, even newer stuff.

Just saying that riders in many cases have rediscovered the virtues of older shifting apparatus, and will likely continue to do so. I've built quite a few bikes for such people.

And I'm sure you do fine work, and it's great that people appreciate it. I just think you took a really bad turn when you tried to distinguish enthusiasts from riders on the basis of their appreciation of any particular piece of equipment.

There's a lot of people out there doing some pretty great riding on bikes you or I would consider absolute piles of junk, I always love meeting them on the road from time to time.
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Old 11-15-18, 02:18 PM
  #187  
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I was speaking in the context of equipment choice when I repeated the "enthusiast" link to the preceding comparison to cars.
To many drivers, the details of their vehicle's mechanics and of traditional driving skills are nil, but to the enthusiast...

As one example, driving enthusiasts may effect actual control/trajectory dynamics of their vehicle using their clutch and transmission, just as a roadie might be approaching their hill attacks with well-timed, premeditated sequences of shifting and rising off the saddle as they perhaps are passing riders going up through a set of switchbacks. And in urban riding, as I mentioned about the guy who could "sprint" ahead of traffic, enthiusiasm was clearly evident in his efficiency.

It's the additional and more-compex involvement that I see as distinguishing those I might term as "enthusiasts", though I or another rider might define a completely different set of parameters, depending on circumstances. Many riders today for example are watching watt-meters and such, and are no less enthusiasts for it.

Last edited by dddd; 11-15-18 at 02:34 PM.
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Old 11-15-18, 02:41 PM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by dddd
I was speaking in the context of equipment choice when I repeated the "enthusiast" link to the preceding comparison to cars.
To many drivers, the details of their vehicle's mechanics and of traditional driving skills are nil, but to the enthusiast...
As one example, driving enthusiasts may effect actual control dynamics parameters of their vehicle using their clutch and transmission, just as a roadie might be approaching their hill attacks with well-timed sequences of shifting and rising off the saddle.
It's the additional and more-compex involvement that I see as distinguishing those I might term as "enthusiasts", though I or another rider might define a completely different set of parameters, depending on circumstances. Many riders today for example are watching watt-meters and such, but they are no less enthusiasts for it.

Huh?

Whatever distinction you're trying to draw, that clarified nothing, especially by the last two sentences. In any event, one could be enthusiastic over the equipment and still hate the placement of DT shifters--that was where you really went True Scotsman. One of the hallmarks of a true equipment enthusiast has got to be strong preferences for some features over others.

I'm sure you'll continue to find a market for your custom DT bikes. I took the OP to be calling for mass market bikes to start featuring it again, and that seems absurdly unlikely to me.
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Old 11-15-18, 02:49 PM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by livedarklions
Huh?

Whatever distinction you're trying to draw, that clarified nothing, especially by the last two sentences. In any event, one could be enthusiastic over the equipment and still hate the placement of DT shifters--that was where you really went True Scotsman. One of the hallmarks of a true equipment enthusiast has got to be strong preferences for some features over others.

I'm sure you'll continue to find a market for your custom DT bikes. I took the OP to be calling for mass market bikes to start featuring it again, and that seems absurdly unlikely to me.
Sorry, too much negativity coming from your direction.

I hope that you can get out and ride your bike.
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Old 11-15-18, 02:50 PM
  #190  
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Originally Posted by dddd
I've known many fellow riders who missed rides due to either their cable having failed or because of an electric power failure.
On one recent morning ride, at our first re-group, the man I was speaking with collapsed with a full cardiac arrest incident as we were talking. We had an emergency-room doctor on our ride who actually was not present at that point because his cable had failed inside of his integrated shifter during the first few miles. It was only the arrival within a minute of a rider schooled in nursing care who was able to diagnose his condition and begin the correct life-sustaining actions.
And I have been at several rides where an arriving rider soon departed for home before even getting out of the parking lot because of no electrical power to his/her shifting aparatus.
And riders with downtube levers more often are able to maintain their shift cabling at home (versus down-time and skipped rides as integrated-shifted bikes sit in the shop).
Umm, what? DT cables can snap and leave the rider screwed too. Your doctor story, if it actually happened, is nothing but an unfortunate coincidence. He could have just as easily had an issue with his DT shifter, if the issue really was a cable. He could have caught his hand on the front tire on an aggressive shift and not even been on the ride.

And you are lamenting how hard it is for some to shift DT, but you are incapable of maintaining a modern shifter at home? I've set up and changed cables on any number of modern, STI/trigger/grip shifters. They're a half step more complicated than DTs, at absolute worst, if you can;t maintain them you can't maintain an indexed DT either.

Originally Posted by dddd
It's hard for me to imagine where you are coming from with that statement.

Are you a CAT-# racer who needs the incremental cumulative benefit of every new "improvement" available?
Maybe you have a very good shop looking after your bike, visited regularly?

Again, I just don't know. Perhaps it's just that your riding position is off so that reaching down to shift greatly affects comfort or control, or that (for same reason) you find it difficult and uncomfortable to move quickly enough into and out of the seated position.
I do know that marketing plays huge, and that people tend to be creatures of habit.
Retrogrouchyness and the need to be different and unique from everyone is a very real thing too, and I'd far more believe that the people that insist upon DT fall into that category than the people that insist on the ubiquitous standard of the day.
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Old 11-15-18, 03:02 PM
  #191  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk
...Retrogrouchyness and the need to be different and unique from everyone is a very real thing too, and I'd far more believe that the people that insist upon DT fall into that category than the people that insist on the ubiquitous standard of the day.
Except that no one here is "insisting on" DT.

It's like people log on here to fight(?)
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Old 11-15-18, 03:14 PM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by dddd
I think that you may have hinted at the true difference between a rider/driver and an enthusiast.
Some of us enjoy the added dimension or challenge of friction shifting, AND are aware of key benefits that non-enthusiasts rarely even imagine.

When I first tried returning to friction shifting after having built and ridden my first couple of bikes having integrated shifters, my first reaction actually was that "one can never go back" to adjusting to the added dimension of skill needed to engage in one's most spirited riding efforts.
But I kept at it in the interest of correctly restoring a few bikes and discovered that I had been very wrong about that!

These days I alternate between bikes having every common type of shifting system, and have no difficulty at all adjusting to and enjoying the ride that goes with any of them.
But as I mentioned, each has it's own best combination of chain and cogs that exploit the benefits of the particular system.
And even the friction-shifted stem shifters are great to have along on a spirited training ride once the rider has acclimated to the use of them in widely-varying conditions.
The rider after all is extremely adaptable if not limited by pre-conceived opinion or by closed-mindedness.

Several years ago I purchased an old 10-speed bike for which I had a very good old replacement wheelset at the ready. The frame and the good wheels were both spaced 120mm and the old Phil hubs were not spaced for even the added width of an Ultra-6 freewheel, so I gambled on another strategy that might permit spirited riding in hilly terrain at the challenging pace of my familiar riding companions.
The chainrings on this late-60's bike happened to be the familiar 52-36t which was very common in those days, so I built up a custom 5sp Uniglide freewheel having ratios just tight enough to work well with the DT friction levers (13-15-17-20-24t).
So I then had the range I needed and only had to learn to do a one-handed double-shift whenever I used the front derailer in more-spirited riding conditions.
It didn't take long to validate my presumption, and the old Simplex derailers worked snappily enough (after some cage-pivot spring tension adjustment) to support my efforts.
It did require that I know how adjust the derailer's chain gap, and did require that good-performing chain and freewheel cogs were used, as well as the usual attention to shifter lubrication and good cabling. But the rider-adaptation was learned within a few rides, and the bike worked well over a subsequent 3,000 miles. I still have the bike, and ride it occasionally, with no problem in re-adapting to it's operating parameters (which, as an enthusiast, I find to be an entertaining challenge).







Yes, I did say spirited riding.
Non-enthusiasts need not apply!
I wanted to tldr, but decided to read all this...and feel like that dude from Billy Madison saying 'may God have mercy on your soul. If you don't get the reference, you are missing out. It's a funny reference to your post.

anyways- great, awesome, cool that you lile DT shifters. Nobody wants to take them away, no need to defend yourself.

1- I didn't read any 'key benefits' of DT shifting. Can you just bullet point them so its clear?
2- your entire story about DT shifting and that old clubman is neat, but it's hardly commonplace and this thread started because the OP thinks indexed DT shifting should make a comeback.
That is what so many have disagreed with- DT shifting making a comeback, as in being spec'd on new bikes. Very few people are going to go to the lengths you went to get a Clubman up and running. That simply isnt an interest for most. I like it, but it's clear that most(both here and in person) dont have an interest in doing that.

recreational riders want convenience and comfort, which means SIT shifting. Competitive riders want performance and comfort, which means STI shifting.
a small segment of geeks wants DT shifters, just like a small segment of geeks likes bar end shifter(I am one) and an even smaller segment of geeks likes Gevenalle shifters(I am one).

We do not represent the masses. DT shifters making a comeback should not happen. Its that simple.
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Old 11-15-18, 03:23 PM
  #193  
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Originally Posted by dddd
I think that you may have hinted at the true difference between a rider/driver and an enthusiast.
Some of us enjoy the added dimension or challenge of friction shifting, AND are aware of key benefits that non-enthusiasts rarely even imagine..................
These days I alternate between bikes having every common type of shifting system, and have no difficulty at all adjusting to and enjoying the ride that goes with any of them.

Yes, I did say spirited riding.
Non-enthusiasts need not apply!

Exactly. It all depends on what you want to get out of the ride. Is the purpose of the bike to aid the rider in the completion of the goal, or is the act of riding the bike itself part of the challenge?
Some of us enjoy more than one flavor, that's why N+1.

Last edited by Ironfish653; 11-15-18 at 03:28 PM.
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Old 11-15-18, 03:36 PM
  #194  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk
Umm, what? DT cables can snap and leave the rider screwed too.
You just triggered memories of drilling Campy shifter cables out of non-Campy downtube shifters. Not fun.
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Old 11-15-18, 04:30 PM
  #195  
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Plenty of people on car track days driving manuals. I don't think they are any less "enthusiasts" than I am.
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Old 11-15-18, 05:39 PM
  #196  
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Many posts to "REPLY" to, but yeah, the car enthusiasts very often prefer manual transmission and clutch, and have their good reasons.

Broken cables; I've never in 40+ years of using DT shifters had a cable break. I've replaced the cabling for other reasons, but never had the cable break.

I must confess, I'm one of the "N+1" riders that Ironfish653 refers to, and yet I do actually enjoy doing hammerfest rides on my current (though bought used) Argon18 with Dura-Ace 9100!

I didn't read through all five(?) pages of this topic, I did notice though that the OP's suggestion about new bikes coming with DT shifters seemed to have been shot down early. But then I had experiences to share about why I came back to riding with DT friction levers, and about how I thought that I achieved an efficient setup.

mstateglfr asked about the benefits of DT levers, and I recall (1) mentioning that they really seem to minimize downtime from cable and other issues (such as STI levers that suddenly "catch a cold" when the weather changes, and stop reacting to lever inputs).
And there is (2) an element of ergonomics that doesn't always make integrated levers the best, what with the wrist action that is needed when honking out of the saddle, and such as having to position one's hands forward on the bars to shift.
Setting up today's bikes with internal cabling and short, stiff cable housings going from the handlebar to the frame (3) is way more work than setting up an old bike that requires less maintenance, by far, and requires more skill and patience to perform such setup and maintenance.
Crashing a bike with integrated shifters (4) can have implications that DT levers are immune to, not to mention that integrated shifters are also heavier and more expensive.

Some folks might never feel safe while having to shift with one hand off of the bars, but I've had moments when using STI levers left me vulnerable to loss of control as I shifted during the varying conditions that often occur, just as I have had moments when I chose not to shift because I feared taking a hand off of the bars to move a DT lever.
I think that riders are capable of deciding how safely to use their particular setup regardless of what setup that they choose, and can understand how shifting from the handlebar can offer certain advantages, including better racing performance in certain circumstances. I've never liked shifting DT levers using "corncob"-style freewheels or cassettes, this having mostly to do with the hilly terrain where I rode.

The best argument for using DT levers might be that a lot of now-inexpensive older bikes have them, and that they can work pretty well. And for urban riders who don't want to park their bike leaving too much in the way of merchandise value out of eyeshot, it's good way to go since their bikes don't have to be as attractive to roaming thieves.

If I'm biased here it is in the sense that I have quite a few bikes, am familiar with all of them, and don't ride the same style of bike on all of the training and recreational rides that I participate in weekly. I can't be convinced that any of the popular shifting systems offered over the past 50 years is deficient, except in the sense of (A) serious competition where the rider is giving it his or her all (and needs a more-current bike), or perhaps where (B) a modern bike is poorly maintained or where (C) a vintage bike is assembled with poor drivetrain component choices.

Last edited by dddd; 11-15-18 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 11-15-18, 06:00 PM
  #197  
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Originally Posted by dddd
Crashing a bike with integrated shifters (4) can have implications that DT levers are immune to, not to mention that integrated shifters are also heavier and more expensive.
And when you crash a bike with DT shifters and trash the mounting boss? Now you're talking about taking the bike to a frame builder to cut out and braze in a new one, or leaving a mangled hunk of metal on and adding a clamp on mount. I can guarantee that either is much more difficult (and in most cases, much more costly) or ugly than buying a new lever to pop on.

And before you say that doesn't happen, I have a frame downstairs that I piked up for nothing because someone did exactly that to the front shifter mount, that I intend to build into a 1x city setup some day.
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Old 11-15-18, 06:11 PM
  #198  
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Originally Posted by dddd
The best argument for using DT levers might be that a lot of now-inexpensive older bikes have them, and that they can work pretty well. And for urban riders who don't want to park their bike leaving too much in the way of merchandise value out of eyeshot, it's good way to go since their bikes don't have to be as attractive to roaming thieves.
Old cheap stock is a great reason to ride them, and a reason that has been mentioned. As to preventing theft, I doubt it, junkies will steal anything they can get their hands on, and vintage is in fashion and values are rising that may encourage it.

Originally Posted by dddd
Except that no one here is "insisting on" DT.
No one here is saying those that want to ride them should be forced to use STIs either, just that there is little market sense for a whole myriad of reasons to make new ones, the beginning of which is that any objective observer can admit to them requiring considerably more involvement to use without much, if any benefit.

And it is you that is writing quite the long, elaborate responses about how difficult STIs were to setup, and now, use, I would personally quantify that as akin to "insisting on".
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Old 11-15-18, 06:14 PM
  #199  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk
And when you crash a bike with DT shifters and trash the mounting boss? Now you're talking about taking the bike to a frame builder to cut out and braze in a new one, or leaving a mangled hunk of metal on and adding a clamp on mount. I can guarantee that either is much more difficult (and in most cases, much more costly) or ugly than buying a new lever to pop on.

And before you say that doesn't happen, I have a frame downstairs that I piked up for nothing because someone did exactly that to the front shifter mount, that I intend to build into a 1x city setup some day.
Do you have a picture of this destroyed braze on?
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Old 11-15-18, 06:23 PM
  #200  
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Originally Posted by jefnvk
And when you crash a bike with DT shifters and trash the mounting boss? Now you're talking about taking the bike to a frame builder to cut out and braze in a new one, or leaving a mangled hunk of metal on and adding a clamp on mount. I can guarantee that either is much more difficult (and in most cases, much more costly) or ugly than buying a new lever to pop on.

And before you say that doesn't happen, I have a frame downstairs that I piked up for nothing because someone did exactly that to the front shifter mount, that I intend to build into a 1x city setup some day.
Ok, that is a scenario unique to having a lever mounted on the downtube. But I have also seen where cabling routed from the bars snagged on a stem bolt or even a reflector bracket and damaged the housing entry into the frame, not to mention the housing itself.

And I've seen where a riveted-on cable stop broke free. ...Also seen many cases where an auxiliary inline cable adjuster tended to detension the cable adjustment with regularity.

I've seen many a DT lever that took a hit and became bent, but with no damage to the frame.

I had a following rider rear-end my bike last year, and end up with a jammed (left) STI lever due to the lever seemingly having moved beyond it's range. He finished the ride in the small ring iir after loosening the pinch bolt at the derailer.

The current breed of STI lever are indeed very nice ergonomically, very refined.
Yet I still as often choose one of my older bikes to do a ride on when gearing limitations won't get in the way (they rarely do).
I genuinely feel that it is a luxury to ride any decent road bike from the past 40 or 50 years.
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