Well, I guess I don't
#26
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Like many of the car manufacturers (eg. VW), they withhold access to their software (and error codes) from non-OEM mechanics for about 5 years and then lease it out for profit. This is firmly entrenched in digital industries.
Edit. Of course if you're going to do that, you'd better have a substantial, strong network of OEM service peoples to fix faulty product..
Edit. Of course if you're going to do that, you'd better have a substantial, strong network of OEM service peoples to fix faulty product..
Last edited by clubman; 06-20-19 at 10:54 PM.
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#27
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My bicycles tend to communicate the error codes via mechanical noises and, if the error is severe enough, tactile feedback. The flat tire alarm could be a lot more subtle.
#28
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I Can Do All Things Through Him, Who Gives Me Strength. Philippians 4:13
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I Can Do All Things Through Him, Who Gives Me Strength. Philippians 4:13
#30
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Error Code 16 = "pedal"
#31
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attempt at humor.....A&S is all over the definitions. I agree that pedal assist is a different beast that anything that you don't have to pedal. And if I ever get where the choice is riding or riding on a pedal assist (which i hope is never....but you never know) i would choose to ride.
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#32
No one cares
attempt at humor.....A&S is all over the definitions. I agree that pedal assist is a different beast that anything that you don't have to pedal. And if I ever get where the choice is riding or riding on a pedal assist (which i hope is never....but you never know) i would choose to ride.
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#33
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I'm not against new technology and I understand how pedal assist works. What I am against is defining an e-bike as a bicycle. When you add a motor, it fundamentally changes the concept. It doesn't matter what fantastic new tech is governing the application of power from the motor. The fact is that there is a motor, a second source of power that is not the human riding it. This is not even remotely equivalent to other advances in bicycle technology, such as: tension spokes, pneumatic tires, derailleur gears, hollow steel tubes, etc.
Also, many e-bikes are not pedal assist, but operate like traditional mopeds or motorized bicycles.
Here in LA, e-bikes are often used on bike and multi use paths, to circumvent traffic. I consider this an abuse and I am against that. Motor + pedals = moped. E-bikes may be a great improvement for the general population's simply getting around. They are certainly more environmentally friendly than cars. I'm not against them, only think bicycles should be considered a separate category.
Also, many e-bikes are not pedal assist, but operate like traditional mopeds or motorized bicycles.
Here in LA, e-bikes are often used on bike and multi use paths, to circumvent traffic. I consider this an abuse and I am against that. Motor + pedals = moped. E-bikes may be a great improvement for the general population's simply getting around. They are certainly more environmentally friendly than cars. I'm not against them, only think bicycles should be considered a separate category.
#34
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"I guess you don't! I guess you don't!"
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And to think I was angry with my washing machine stupid error codes... now on bicycles?
Oh wait, it wasn't a bicycle!
Oh wait, it wasn't a bicycle!
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I'm not against new technology and I understand how pedal assist works. What I am against is defining an e-bike as a bicycle. When you add a motor, it fundamentally changes the concept. It doesn't matter what fantastic new tech is governing the application of power from the motor. The fact is that there is a motor, a second source of power that is not the human riding it. This is not even remotely equivalent to other advances in bicycle technology, such as: tension spokes, pneumatic tires, derailleur gears, hollow steel tubes, etc.
Also, many e-bikes are not pedal assist, but operate like traditional mopeds or motorized bicycles.
Here in LA, e-bikes are often used on bike and multi use paths, to circumvent traffic. I consider this an abuse and I am against that. Motor + pedals = moped. E-bikes may be a great improvement for the general population's simply getting around. They are certainly more environmentally friendly than cars. I'm not against them, only think bicycles should be considered a separate category.
Also, many e-bikes are not pedal assist, but operate like traditional mopeds or motorized bicycles.
Here in LA, e-bikes are often used on bike and multi use paths, to circumvent traffic. I consider this an abuse and I am against that. Motor + pedals = moped. E-bikes may be a great improvement for the general population's simply getting around. They are certainly more environmentally friendly than cars. I'm not against them, only think bicycles should be considered a separate category.
I mean, after all, electric trains are not real trains either, are they?
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#38
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fwiw,
I think the classification should look some thing like this
pedal assist: needs to be pedaled to start, needs to be pedaled to get assist, no throttle (just assist level) assist is speed limited to 18 mph or so. This would fit needs of people who are carrying more stuff, out of shape, infirm etc.
any thing else whether it has pedals or not that can start without pedaling, go faster that 18 mph, has a throttle is a motorized vehicle and should require licensing, insurance, etc...... of course that does not cover things like gyro stablized single wheel electric skateboards and other vehicles
I will say the guy on the huge fat tire, e-bike bombing down the mup I use, and acting like he has priority is a pain
I can say
I think the classification should look some thing like this
pedal assist: needs to be pedaled to start, needs to be pedaled to get assist, no throttle (just assist level) assist is speed limited to 18 mph or so. This would fit needs of people who are carrying more stuff, out of shape, infirm etc.
any thing else whether it has pedals or not that can start without pedaling, go faster that 18 mph, has a throttle is a motorized vehicle and should require licensing, insurance, etc...... of course that does not cover things like gyro stablized single wheel electric skateboards and other vehicles
I will say the guy on the huge fat tire, e-bike bombing down the mup I use, and acting like he has priority is a pain
I can say
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#39
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Well, he does have priority of course because he's a riding a motorized vehicle like a grown-up (even if he's on a MUP where he's not supposed to be) and you're pedaling a kid's toy that doesn't go very fast.
Remember, a lot of e-bike users have never ever ridden bicycles as adults and haven't paid their dues as muscle-powered road users. They're not transitioning from bicycles because of age/infirmity, they're transitioning from motor vehicles because they've lost their driver's licenses for impaired driving convictions, or it's just another motorized toy to play with until the novelty wears off. (Of course I have no evidence for any of this: this is the Internet for Heaven's sake.)
I see the Greens getting all splinter-factionalized about this -- some want to lump e-bikes in with bicycles because neither are "cars" and both get people out of them; some see e-bikers as arriviste interlopers who make cycling less enjoyable because of high-speed competition in our space at the right edge of the road or on MUPs. (And be aware that walkers rightly see many of us as interlopers who make walking less enjoyable on their sidewalks and hiking trails.)
The nice thing about winter here is that it has done the same to e-bikes that it did to gas-powered mopeds in the 1970s: very few survive their first winter. By this I don't mean that winter destroys them, just that because no-one rides them through the winter, they finish life at garage sales in spring. (Someone once said the life of a Huffy, from Wal-Mart to dumpster, was 75 miles. E-bikes about the same I bet.)
/Rant off. Thanks, I needed that. -> ->
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#41
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Well, he does have priority of course because he's a riding a motorized vehicle like a grown-up (even if he's on a MUP where he's not supposed to be) and you're pedaling a kid's toy that doesn't go very fast.
Remember, a lot of e-bike users have never ever ridden bicycles as adults and haven't paid their dues as muscle-powered road users. They're not transitioning from bicycles because of age/infirmity, they're transitioning from motor vehicles because they've lost their driver's licenses for impaired driving convictions, or it's just another motorized toy to play with until the novelty wears off. (Of course I have no evidence for any of this: this is the Internet for Heaven's sake.)
I see the Greens getting all splinter-factionalized about this -- some want to lump e-bikes in with bicycles because neither are "cars" and both get people out of them; some see e-bikers as arriviste interlopers who make cycling less enjoyable because of high-speed competition in our space at the right edge of the road or on MUPs. (And be aware that walkers rightly see many of us as interlopers who make walking less enjoyable on their sidewalks and hiking trails.)
The nice thing about winter here is that it has done the same to e-bikes that it did to gas-powered mopeds in the 1970s: very few survive their first winter. By this I don't mean that winter destroys them, just that because no-one rides them through the winter, they finish life at garage sales in spring. (Someone once said the life of a Huffy, from Wal-Mart to dumpster, was 75 miles. E-bikes about the same I bet.)
/Rant off. Thanks, I needed that. -> ->
Remember, a lot of e-bike users have never ever ridden bicycles as adults and haven't paid their dues as muscle-powered road users. They're not transitioning from bicycles because of age/infirmity, they're transitioning from motor vehicles because they've lost their driver's licenses for impaired driving convictions, or it's just another motorized toy to play with until the novelty wears off. (Of course I have no evidence for any of this: this is the Internet for Heaven's sake.)
I see the Greens getting all splinter-factionalized about this -- some want to lump e-bikes in with bicycles because neither are "cars" and both get people out of them; some see e-bikers as arriviste interlopers who make cycling less enjoyable because of high-speed competition in our space at the right edge of the road or on MUPs. (And be aware that walkers rightly see many of us as interlopers who make walking less enjoyable on their sidewalks and hiking trails.)
The nice thing about winter here is that it has done the same to e-bikes that it did to gas-powered mopeds in the 1970s: very few survive their first winter. By this I don't mean that winter destroys them, just that because no-one rides them through the winter, they finish life at garage sales in spring. (Someone once said the life of a Huffy, from Wal-Mart to dumpster, was 75 miles. E-bikes about the same I bet.)
/Rant off. Thanks, I needed that. -> ->
Yoga pants.
#43
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Worst thing about MUPs?
In some instances - Yoga pants.
Here, it's illegal to use a motor on any vehicle on an MUP. The vehicle can have a motor, but you have to operate it on human power. Power/"fuel" source, drive/assist type, etc. are all irrelvant. Exception is mobility assistance for someone with a disability, but you'd better have documentation of such. And those electric skateboards, electrified Razor-type scooters, all those annoyances, are all classified as "motorized toys", and are illegal on streets and MUPs. But they're taking over like dandelions.
The electric train / "real" train analogy would be meaningful if "real" trains were human-powered. Or if a diesel-powered bicycle could be considered a "real" bicycle. Otherwise, it's nonsense.
In some instances - Yoga pants.
Here, it's illegal to use a motor on any vehicle on an MUP. The vehicle can have a motor, but you have to operate it on human power. Power/"fuel" source, drive/assist type, etc. are all irrelvant. Exception is mobility assistance for someone with a disability, but you'd better have documentation of such. And those electric skateboards, electrified Razor-type scooters, all those annoyances, are all classified as "motorized toys", and are illegal on streets and MUPs. But they're taking over like dandelions.
The electric train / "real" train analogy would be meaningful if "real" trains were human-powered. Or if a diesel-powered bicycle could be considered a "real" bicycle. Otherwise, it's nonsense.
#44
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depends on the person wearing them
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#45
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Methinks half of you guys have either A. Never tried a pedal-assisted e-bike before, or B. Are curmudgeonly set in your old road bike ways to accept that pedal-assisted e-bikes are tools that can help make bicycle commuting more accessible for many people.
For the most part, we're missing the infra to make it happen effectively here in the U.S., but that doesn't negate the potential practicality. No need to hate on it because it's new (but every right to hate on it when it's a POS like this VanMoof that provides more error codes to its user than electric assist).
You just did
Technically, the pedal assist variety are "pedelecs."
Define "many." Thanks to Jump and Lime's dockless equipment, there are probably more pedelec e-bikes in existence right now than throttle-controlled. All of the Bosch-powered models are pedelecs from factory.
I'm intrigued, @mechanicmatt. Source? Any other info?
-Kurt
For the most part, we're missing the infra to make it happen effectively here in the U.S., but that doesn't negate the potential practicality. No need to hate on it because it's new (but every right to hate on it when it's a POS like this VanMoof that provides more error codes to its user than electric assist).
You just did
Technically, the pedal assist variety are "pedelecs."
I'm intrigued, @mechanicmatt. Source? Any other info?
-Kurt
Last edited by cudak888; 06-21-19 at 06:35 PM.
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#46
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On one hand the concept seems sympathetic: no exhaust gasses, easier for people with limited abilities, enabling longer commutes. On the other hand: what I'm seeing here, in real life, is that they do not replace cars but bicycles and the occasional moped. They are mainly bought by the general public, people who were riding 'normal' bicycles to school and to work before, and are glad they don't have to pedal that hard anymore. It's a luxury item that's quickly becoming the new normal.
To give you some data points, these are the Dutch stats from 2018:
Total population: 17 million
Total bicycle sales: 1,01 million
E-bike sales: 409,400 (up from 294.000 in 2017)
'Normal' bike sales: 495.390 (down from 545.490 in 2017)
So, less people are pedaling and the electricity has got to come from somewhere, so I'm not entirely convinced yet things are getting greener and healthier overall, at least not where I live.
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#47
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Whether it is nonsense or not is for y'all to decide. I made the remark for some additional perspective and, quite frankly, because I find it difficult to make up my mind about e-bikes.
On one hand the concept seems sympathetic: no exhaust gasses, easier for people with limited abilities, enabling longer commutes. On the other hand: what I'm seeing here, in real life, is that they do not replace cars but bicycles and the occasional moped. They are mainly bought by the general public, people who were riding 'normal' bicycles to school and to work before, and are glad they don't have to pedal that hard anymore. It's a luxury item that's quickly becoming the new normal.
To give you some data points, these are the Dutch stats from 2018:
Total population: 17 million
Total bicycle sales: 1,01 million
E-bike sales: 409,400 (up from 294.000 in 2017)
'Normal' bike sales: 495.390 (down from 545.490 in 2017)
So, less people are pedaling and the electricity has got to come from somewhere, so I'm not entirely convinced yet things are getting greener and healthier overall, at least not where I live.
On one hand the concept seems sympathetic: no exhaust gasses, easier for people with limited abilities, enabling longer commutes. On the other hand: what I'm seeing here, in real life, is that they do not replace cars but bicycles and the occasional moped. They are mainly bought by the general public, people who were riding 'normal' bicycles to school and to work before, and are glad they don't have to pedal that hard anymore. It's a luxury item that's quickly becoming the new normal.
To give you some data points, these are the Dutch stats from 2018:
Total population: 17 million
Total bicycle sales: 1,01 million
E-bike sales: 409,400 (up from 294.000 in 2017)
'Normal' bike sales: 495.390 (down from 545.490 in 2017)
So, less people are pedaling and the electricity has got to come from somewhere, so I'm not entirely convinced yet things are getting greener and healthier overall, at least not where I live.
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(looking for Torpado Super light frame/fork or for Raleigh International frame fork 58cm)
#48
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Whether it is nonsense or not is for y'all to decide. I made the remark for some additional perspective and, quite frankly, because I find it difficult to make up my mind about e-bikes.
On one hand the concept seems sympathetic: no exhaust gasses, easier for people with limited abilities, enabling longer commutes. On the other hand: what I'm seeing here, in real life, is that they do not replace cars but bicycles and the occasional moped. They are mainly bought by the general public, people who were riding 'normal' bicycles to school and to work before, and are glad they don't have to pedal that hard anymore. It's a luxury item that's quickly becoming the new normal.
To give you some data points, these are the Dutch stats from 2018:
Total population: 17 million
Total bicycle sales: 1,01 million
E-bike sales: 409,400 (up from 294.000 in 2017)
'Normal' bike sales: 495.390 (down from 545.490 in 2017)
So, less people are pedaling and the electricity has got to come from somewhere, so I'm not entirely convinced yet things are getting greener and healthier overall, at least not where I live.
On one hand the concept seems sympathetic: no exhaust gasses, easier for people with limited abilities, enabling longer commutes. On the other hand: what I'm seeing here, in real life, is that they do not replace cars but bicycles and the occasional moped. They are mainly bought by the general public, people who were riding 'normal' bicycles to school and to work before, and are glad they don't have to pedal that hard anymore. It's a luxury item that's quickly becoming the new normal.
To give you some data points, these are the Dutch stats from 2018:
Total population: 17 million
Total bicycle sales: 1,01 million
E-bike sales: 409,400 (up from 294.000 in 2017)
'Normal' bike sales: 495.390 (down from 545.490 in 2017)
So, less people are pedaling and the electricity has got to come from somewhere, so I'm not entirely convinced yet things are getting greener and healthier overall, at least not where I live.
You know that the earliest trains were indeed human- or horse- powered. Coal mines had small rail-ways underground. Miners loaded coal into small ore cars which men or specially bred small pit-ponies hauled to the elevators by which the coal was brought to the surface. This latter operation was mechanized by steam power long before there was a way to mechanize the trip from the coal face to the pit shaft. And don't forget the horse-drawn street cars in every large city. I don't think anyone would want to go back to those good old days of brawn and sweat (and horse excreta.)
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I want to build a pedal assist bike with a 2 stroke motor, just to push the point that pedal assist IS motorized.
It'd be rather easy to build, something that drags on the BB spindle pulls the throttle cable and makes the engine go BRAAPPPP!!!! One of the cheapo chainsaw motors with a centrifugal clutch on a rack on the back of the bike with a couple of gear reductions which ends up pulling on the largest cog on the back of the mountain bike could be put together in a couple evenings in the laboratory...
It'd be rather easy to build, something that drags on the BB spindle pulls the throttle cable and makes the engine go BRAAPPPP!!!! One of the cheapo chainsaw motors with a centrifugal clutch on a rack on the back of the bike with a couple of gear reductions which ends up pulling on the largest cog on the back of the mountain bike could be put together in a couple evenings in the laboratory...