Texans Against High-Speed Rail
#27
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
Posts: 5,058
Bikes: 2013 Haro FL Comp 29er MTB.
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1470 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 45 Times
in
35 Posts
My point was that Europe and its rail system is still a smaller undertaking than the US even if it would take a bit more space than east of the Mississippi. Maybe it would fit east of the continental devide? Not that passenger rail stirs the heart or the average American.
The issue for US citizens is property rights and compensation for that property. Once that hurdle is jumped over there is the issue of is it something the voters want. We used to have passenger rail in the US and I found it charming. But it couldn't compete and I am not convinced it can now.
The issue for US citizens is property rights and compensation for that property. Once that hurdle is jumped over there is the issue of is it something the voters want. We used to have passenger rail in the US and I found it charming. But it couldn't compete and I am not convinced it can now.
#28
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
No boys and girls, it's about Southwest Airlines and their lobbying power. They have been fighting HSR on their legacy route for a long, long time. SAT-HOU-LUV and AUS.
#29
Sophomoric Member
My point was that Europe and its rail system is still a smaller undertaking than the US even if it would take a bit more space than east of the Mississippi. Maybe it would fit east of the continental devide? Not that passenger rail stirs the heart or the average American.
The issue for US citizens is property rights and compensation for that property. Once that hurdle is jumped over there is the issue of is it something the voters want. We used to have passenger rail in the US and I found it charming. But it couldn't compete and I am not convinced it can now.
The issue for US citizens is property rights and compensation for that property. Once that hurdle is jumped over there is the issue of is it something the voters want. We used to have passenger rail in the US and I found it charming. But it couldn't compete and I am not convinced it can now.
As for property rights, the Roberts Court has pretty much written those off with it's eminent domain rulings. Even private developers can now confiscate private homes to build shopping malls or apartment complexes, so it shouldn't be too hard to take over the land for public projects like a railway or highway.
__________________
"Think Outside the Cage"
#30
Sophomoric Member
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Okefenokee Swamps.
Posts: 577
Bikes: Rockhopper, Azor Oma cruiser
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
I'd rather invest in a HSR with links to outlying smaller cities as such than our space program. Imagine all of the dui's and auto accidentseaths that could be avoided during travel..
#32
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Bay Area, Calif.
Posts: 7,239
Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 659 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
6 Posts
While I like the idea of high-speed rail, I wonder how the economics for it will look if/when autonomous cars become common. Sure the train would still be much faster, but personally I wouldn't be that concerned about having a 3-hour travel time vs. 1.5 hours by train if I could relax in the car while watching a movie/reading a book/surfing the web/catching up on email/etc. And if you include the total end-end time it probably wouldn't be much different when including the time to get to the station, wait for the train, get a rental car at the other end, and drive to the destination.
Wouldn't even need fully autonomous cars to seriously dent the demand for long distance trains since only limited-access highway travel would have to be autonomous and that's an easier technological problem to solve.
Wouldn't even need fully autonomous cars to seriously dent the demand for long distance trains since only limited-access highway travel would have to be autonomous and that's an easier technological problem to solve.
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2012
Location: Okefenokee Swamps.
Posts: 577
Bikes: Rockhopper, Azor Oma cruiser
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times
in
2 Posts
A train is much smoother riding than any automobile as long as you don't ride in the last car. And full meals are served on trains - at least in Europe. And it's nice to be able to walk around in the passenger car of the train to stretch one's legs. And you get to meet new people. Amerikans live in such an encapsulated lifestyle.
Last edited by tjkoko; 02-06-16 at 03:14 AM.
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Seville, Spain
Posts: 4,403
Bikes: Brompton M6R, mountain bikes, Circe Omnis+ tandem
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
Such service is an endangered species in Spain. Is it still available in other European countries?
- Food & drink: On most long-distance trains there's a cafe-bar serving tea, coffee, drinks and snacks. Preferente fares used to include an at-seat meal with wine on all AVE, Altaria, EuroMed and most Alvia trains, but this was almost completely discontinued in December 2013. A meal with wine remains included in Preferente class only on AVE & EuroMed trains on Mondays-Fridays, but not at weekends. Of course, you're also free to take your own food and even wine or beer onto the train.
A beginner's guide to train travel in Spain | How to use www.renfe.com
#35
Senior Member
Yes, this is part of it. High speed rail isn't competing just with cars but also air transportation. So HSR costs sometimes offset a bunch of other things like airport expansion, and carbon emissions from airplanes which are less efficient, especially when they climb, then immediately descend as is common on short routes. This was a big part of the California HSR scenario. Some very high number of flights within the state are between the Bay Area and LA.
#36
Senior Member
I don't know either if good rail could compete here. But competition isn't really something that can be known, since highways were given every advantage by government while railways were being starved out of existence. There has never been free competition in the transportation sector--nor should there be. Transportation is part of the "common good" that can most efficiently be provided by government, not by the private sector. So it's kind of foolish to talk about competition between highways and railways. This form of competition doesn't even exist now, never has, and never will. Nor should it.
As for property rights, the Roberts Court has pretty much written those off with it's eminent domain rulings. Even private developers can now confiscate private homes to build shopping malls or apartment complexes, so it shouldn't be too hard to take over the land for public projects like a railway or highway.
As for property rights, the Roberts Court has pretty much written those off with it's eminent domain rulings. Even private developers can now confiscate private homes to build shopping malls or apartment complexes, so it shouldn't be too hard to take over the land for public projects like a railway or highway.
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Montreal
Posts: 55
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
#38
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
Of course Texans don't want to give up their "way of life", which last I observed included very large air-conditioned homes and use of an F350 to go everywhere. They will cling to their "way of life" as will many Americans, until it turns into a living hell of climate change - from mosquito born disease, floods, drought, super tornadoes, etc. Then they will of course expect disaster relief from the government. Nothing new here.. just don't challenge their right to "live free or die", lol.
In a way, my intuition is that the calculations are short sighted. When people do these kinds of projections it's dead certain that they've missed something, and furthermore cascading effects are unpredictable. I'd love to see the rail implemented, win or lose, so that we'd have some real information on the economic impact under modern conditions.
#39
Junior Member
#40
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Part of the problem is that you need a comprehensive Metro system to feed and disseminate the riders on the HSR line. Otherwise, by the time you rent a car, you'd be better off driving. The city transit systems in the cities being talked about for HSR systems generally suck.
Even The NYC airports are just now being funded for rail link to the city, where there is subway access to go everywhere you need to go. You just can't get there right now quickly and cheaply. Finally, the taxi cab lobby has been vanquished.
Even The NYC airports are just now being funded for rail link to the city, where there is subway access to go everywhere you need to go. You just can't get there right now quickly and cheaply. Finally, the taxi cab lobby has been vanquished.
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Seville, Spain
Posts: 4,403
Bikes: Brompton M6R, mountain bikes, Circe Omnis+ tandem
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
Part of the problem is that you need a comprehensive Metro system to feed and disseminate the riders on the HSR line. Otherwise, by the time you rent a car, you'd be better off driving. The city transit systems in the cities being talked about for HSR systems generally suck.
#42
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
Question is replacing frequent trips between the two cities. I've driven a number of times Dallas to Houston, but never flown. It seems to me that a hassle getting in and out of the terminal would be a big factor in whether to drive or take the rail.
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Seville, Spain
Posts: 4,403
Bikes: Brompton M6R, mountain bikes, Circe Omnis+ tandem
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
Getting in and out of a railway station tends to be much faster and hassle-free than going through an airport; plus, the train leaves you right in the city center, not at an airport out in the sticks. I suppose the biggest disadvantage to both rail and plane travel between these two cities, given the lack of good mass transit, is the fact that once you get there you're going to need a car to get around.
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
Getting in and out of a railway station tends to be much faster and hassle-free than going through an airport; plus, the train leaves you right in the city center, not at an airport out in the sticks. I suppose the biggest disadvantage to both rail and plane travel between these two cities, given the lack of good mass transit, is the fact that once you get there you're going to need a car to get around.
#46
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Seville, Spain
Posts: 4,403
Bikes: Brompton M6R, mountain bikes, Circe Omnis+ tandem
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
That's the way I travel between Seville and Madrid. My trusty Brompton goes with with me on the high-speed AVE. Bike sharing is available in both cities for those who are so inclined.
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Atlanta, GA. USA
Posts: 3,804
Bikes: Surly Long Haul Disc Trucker
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1015 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time
in
1 Post
If the plan doesn't include a big revamp of mass transit and bicycle and pedestrian infrastructure then you have to wonder more about the economic case for doing it. People avoid flying such short distances, and will avoid the rail too unless they can quickly and cheaply connect to their final destination. If that challenge is not met then the riders will be occasional tourists and carless people (a small minority source of revenue).
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2011
Location: Dallas Fort Worth Metroplex
Posts: 5,058
Bikes: 2013 Haro FL Comp 29er MTB.
Mentioned: 9 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1470 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 45 Times
in
35 Posts
I don't know either if good rail could compete here. But competition isn't really something that can be known, since highways were given every advantage by government while railways were being starved out of existence. There has never been free competition in the transportation sector--nor should there be. Transportation is part of the "common good" that can most efficiently be provided by government, not by the private sector. So it's kind of foolish to talk about competition between highways and railways. This form of competition doesn't even exist now, never has, and never will. Nor should it.
As for property rights, the Roberts Court has pretty much written those off with it's eminent domain rulings. Even private developers can now confiscate private homes to build shopping malls or apartment complexes, so it shouldn't be too hard to take over the land for public projects like a railway or highway.
As for property rights, the Roberts Court has pretty much written those off with it's eminent domain rulings. Even private developers can now confiscate private homes to build shopping malls or apartment complexes, so it shouldn't be too hard to take over the land for public projects like a railway or highway.
If if the people along the way can be convinced that there is something in it for them personally it would go a long way in opening ROW for a HSR. That being said it seems as if those ROWs come mostly at the expense of those communities and property owners that have the least power to fight it so the ROWs get moved to those areas. The origional HSR in my state was supposed to run straight down the coast from SF to LA and San Diego. The wealthier communities along the way have more or less stopped that plan and moved the planned route inland to sparsely populated communities. And it has been years since the origional plan was approved and yet little or no real progress is being made. The following may be one reason:
Bullet train runs into rising opposition over Southern California routes - LA Times
#49
Senior Member
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Seville, Spain
Posts: 4,403
Bikes: Brompton M6R, mountain bikes, Circe Omnis+ tandem
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 146 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 6 Times
in
5 Posts
If the plan doesn't include a big revamp of mass transit and bicycle and pedestrian infrastructure then you have to wonder more about the economic case for doing it. People avoid flying such short distances, and will avoid the rail too unless they can quickly and cheaply connect to their final destination. If that challenge is not met then the riders will be occasional tourists and carless people (a small minority source of revenue).
#50
Member
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 37
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Oh yes, the post 9/11 security hassles supposedly reduced short haul passenger traffic, although it really isn't much of a time factor anymore if you are willing to do pre-check and so forth.