Motorist vs. Courier in Toronto
01-27-06, 02:51 PM
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Give it some time to load. Several photos of an altercation between a bike messenger and motorist in Toronto. According to the photographer:
"i did not see the beginning of this, but the report goes as follows:
motorist throws food out of window. courier, disliking littering, picks up food and throws food back in car. motorist dumps coffee on courier. courier scratches car with key. road rage ensues."
https://www.citynoise.org/article/2770/by/hool
"i did not see the beginning of this, but the report goes as follows:
motorist throws food out of window. courier, disliking littering, picks up food and throws food back in car. motorist dumps coffee on courier. courier scratches car with key. road rage ensues."
https://www.citynoise.org/article/2770/by/hool
01-27-06, 03:18 PM
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Rather interesting. Little surprise that of all the comments there were only a few which were balanced and pointed out that both those involved were jerks.
I want to make one comment about those who complained about a guy going arter a female. He did not take physical action against her until she vandalized his car. If anyone takes that kind of action they should be ready to deal with the consequences. If someone did that to my car I might me better behaved than he was. I'm now older and calmer, I would simply detain them until the police could arrive. But I would not be gentle.
I want to make one comment about those who complained about a guy going arter a female. He did not take physical action against her until she vandalized his car. If anyone takes that kind of action they should be ready to deal with the consequences. If someone did that to my car I might me better behaved than he was. I'm now older and calmer, I would simply detain them until the police could arrive. But I would not be gentle.
01-27-06, 03:21 PM
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I agree that both were out of line... but littering... com'on. How many years has the anti littering message been spouted... and this jagoff just dumps the stuff out of his car!
Of course what we don't know is whether he threw it at her in the first place.
Of course what we don't know is whether he threw it at her in the first place.
01-27-06, 03:38 PM
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That's a shame, and I'll probably get flamed for this but the courier should have just ridden away. These kind of incidents only ever escalate and it's usually the cyclist who gets the worst of it. I don't know if the girl thought she was above being struck or a badass, but she was obviously wrong on both counts. The other sad thing is that images like this only reinforce negative stereotypes of cyclists and especially couriers. Nothing wrong with being a badass, but dang, pick your battles seems kind of stupid to risk a fight over littering in a big city.
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01-27-06, 03:39 PM
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I swear that same courier has nearly T'd me on a crossroads. I really have precious little sympathy.
01-27-06, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith99
If someone did that to my car I might me better behaved than he was. I'm now older and calmer, I would simply detain them until the police could arrive. But I would not be gentle.
Like so many others, you seem to see your car as an extension of your person. If the side panel of a car was vandalized, you see it as assault. It isn't. It isn't even close.
The person who parks beside me in my parking garage repeatedly dented the door of my new car deliberately, because she was expressing her anger and trying to make a point the parking spaces in the garage were too small for her needs. Had I forcibly detained her and "not been gentle" , as you suggest, I would have most likely been charged with assault and spent considerable time in jail. And I would have deserved it.
And no, I was not able to get her to pay up for the damage she did to the car. I take that as just another vehicle-related cost. I don't try to make citizen's arrests and play rough.
Minor property offences and assaulting a women are not interchangeable deeds. Fortunately, it appears in the photoset that the people of my city recognize this.
01-27-06, 03:43 PM
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And had I seen that guy littering in my "big city" I might have thrown in back in the SUV as well. In fact, I'd be mad at myself afterwards if I didn't.
01-27-06, 04:05 PM
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Originally Posted by ghettocruiser
Like so many others, you seem to see your car as an extension of your person. If the side panel of a car was vandalized, you see it as assault. It isn't. It isn't even close.
The person who parks beside me in my parking garage repeatedly dented the door of my new car deliberately, because she was expressing her anger and trying to make a point the parking spaces in the garage were too small for her needs. Had I forcibly detained her and "not been gentle" , as you suggest, I would have most likely been charged with assault and spent considerable time in jail. And I would have deserved it.
And no, I was not able to get her to pay up for the damage she did to the car. I take that as just another vehicle-related cost. I don't try to make citizen's arrests and play rough.
Minor property offences and assaulting a women are not interchangeable deeds. Fortunately, it appears in the photoset that the people of my city recognize this.
The person who parks beside me in my parking garage repeatedly dented the door of my new car deliberately, because she was expressing her anger and trying to make a point the parking spaces in the garage were too small for her needs. Had I forcibly detained her and "not been gentle" , as you suggest, I would have most likely been charged with assault and spent considerable time in jail. And I would have deserved it.
And no, I was not able to get her to pay up for the damage she did to the car. I take that as just another vehicle-related cost. I don't try to make citizen's arrests and play rough.
Minor property offences and assaulting a women are not interchangeable deeds. Fortunately, it appears in the photoset that the people of my city recognize this.
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01-27-06, 04:11 PM
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Originally Posted by ghettocruiser
Like so many others, you seem to see your car as an extension of your person. If the side panel of a car was vandalized, you see it as assault. It isn't. It isn't even close.
The person who parks beside me in my parking garage repeatedly dented the door of my new car deliberately, because she was expressing her anger and trying to make a point the parking spaces in the garage were too small for her needs. Had I forcibly detained her and "not been gentle" , as you suggest, I would have most likely been charged with assault and spent considerable time in jail. And I would have deserved it.
And no, I was not able to get her to pay up for the damage she did to the car. I take that as just another vehicle-related cost. I don't try to make citizen's arrests and play rough.
Minor property offences and assaulting a women are not interchangeable deeds. Fortunately, it appears in the photoset that the people of my city recognize this.
The person who parks beside me in my parking garage repeatedly dented the door of my new car deliberately, because she was expressing her anger and trying to make a point the parking spaces in the garage were too small for her needs. Had I forcibly detained her and "not been gentle" , as you suggest, I would have most likely been charged with assault and spent considerable time in jail. And I would have deserved it.
And no, I was not able to get her to pay up for the damage she did to the car. I take that as just another vehicle-related cost. I don't try to make citizen's arrests and play rough.
Minor property offences and assaulting a women are not interchangeable deeds. Fortunately, it appears in the photoset that the people of my city recognize this.
01-27-06, 04:28 PM
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Originally Posted by genec
I agree that both were out of line... but littering... com'on. How many years has the anti littering message been spouted... and this jagoff just dumps the stuff out of his car!
01-27-06, 04:34 PM
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I took action.
It included 3rd party arbitration with building managment.
It didn't include the use of force.
It wasn't too effective. If that means I got walked on, sure.
(That was spoken like a parody of a true american, by the way.)
I don't physically accost people for something of this nature. I don't forcibly detain women. I guess I'm a whimp.
And "Criminal?" Maybe in america someone who causes superficial damage to a car is a *criminal* and deserves to 'get what's coming to them'. Not here. Do you honestly think the police give a crap?
I'd like to think that people dispensing their own justice was a thing of the past. But either way your legally-minded argument breaks down when you call people whimps for not using force to solve problems.
It included 3rd party arbitration with building managment.
It didn't include the use of force.
It wasn't too effective. If that means I got walked on, sure.
(That was spoken like a parody of a true american, by the way.)
I don't physically accost people for something of this nature. I don't forcibly detain women. I guess I'm a whimp.
And "Criminal?" Maybe in america someone who causes superficial damage to a car is a *criminal* and deserves to 'get what's coming to them'. Not here. Do you honestly think the police give a crap?
I'd like to think that people dispensing their own justice was a thing of the past. But either way your legally-minded argument breaks down when you call people whimps for not using force to solve problems.
01-27-06, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by ghettocruiser
I took action.
It included 3rd party arbitration with building managment.
It didn't include the use of force.
It wasn't too effective. If that means I got walked on, sure.
(That was spoken like a parody of a true american, by the way.)
I don't physically accost people for something of this nature. I don't forcibly detain women. I guess I'm a whimp.
And "Criminal?" Maybe in america someone who causes superficial damage to a car is a *criminal* and deserves to 'get what's coming to them'. Not here. Do you honestly think the police give a crap?
I'd like to think that people dispensing their own justice was a thing of the past. But either way your legally-minded argument breaks down when you call people whimps for not using force to solve problems.
It included 3rd party arbitration with building managment.
It didn't include the use of force.
It wasn't too effective. If that means I got walked on, sure.
(That was spoken like a parody of a true american, by the way.)
I don't physically accost people for something of this nature. I don't forcibly detain women. I guess I'm a whimp.
And "Criminal?" Maybe in america someone who causes superficial damage to a car is a *criminal* and deserves to 'get what's coming to them'. Not here. Do you honestly think the police give a crap?
I'd like to think that people dispensing their own justice was a thing of the past. But either way your legally-minded argument breaks down when you call people whimps for not using force to solve problems.
That seems like a reasonable action to take.
However the actions of the bike courier are a bit differrent. Her action was to key the car, it's ONLY reason was to inflict damage, to say if you mess with me I'll hurt you. She was not someone known and if she left the scene she would be gone forever. Detaining someone like that with reasonable physical force is entirely justified. Honestly the drivers eventual action of smashing the rear wheel of her bike while wrong almost surely caused far less damage in terms of cost to repair than her damage to his car.
BTW I'm much more a Paladin than a brute. I usually shrug off attacks directed at me. But mess with that nice little old lady and I am still an even money bet to get nasty.
01-27-06, 05:54 PM
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Originally Posted by ghettocruiser
Like so many others, you seem to see your car as an extension of your person. If the side panel of a car was vandalized, you see it as assault. It isn't. It isn't even close.
The person who parks beside me in my parking garage repeatedly dented the door of my new car deliberately, because she was expressing her anger and trying to make a point the parking spaces in the garage were too small for her needs. Had I forcibly detained her and "not been gentle" , as you suggest, I would have most likely been charged with assault and spent considerable time in jail. And I would have deserved it.
And no, I was not able to get her to pay up for the damage she did to the car. I take that as just another vehicle-related cost. I don't try to make citizen's arrests and play rough.
Minor property offences and assaulting a women are not interchangeable deeds. Fortunately, it appears in the photoset that the people of my city recognize this.
The person who parks beside me in my parking garage repeatedly dented the door of my new car deliberately, because she was expressing her anger and trying to make a point the parking spaces in the garage were too small for her needs. Had I forcibly detained her and "not been gentle" , as you suggest, I would have most likely been charged with assault and spent considerable time in jail. And I would have deserved it.
And no, I was not able to get her to pay up for the damage she did to the car. I take that as just another vehicle-related cost. I don't try to make citizen's arrests and play rough.
Minor property offences and assaulting a women are not interchangeable deeds. Fortunately, it appears in the photoset that the people of my city recognize this.
Yeah, the whole attitude changes when you see a car for what it really is... simple transportation. For this reason (and others) I have never bought a new car, and the one I have now reflects the use I bought it for... 4WD in Mexico... and the scratches and dents are proud badges of my adventures.
BTW my father used to sell new cars for a living... so I have seen plenty of new cars in my life.
01-27-06, 06:25 PM
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I'll (try) to finish this thought rationally. Let's say that the guy hadn't just littered (the fine in Toronto is now $405 CDN) and hadn't just splashed someone with hot(?) coffee, (which might well be an assault in itself). Let's say some random cyclist just rode up and keyed his car.
If you want to detain someone, it is a real bad idea under Canadian Law to physically try to hold them if they haven't already assaulted or threatened you or someone else. If you did, you could get in a great deal of trouble yourself and much more so if it was a woman and you were a man.
Hypothetically speaking, It would be much better to just grab their bike and hold onto it while calling the police. Even that would be a bit dicey, and you're still going to need witnesses and obvious intent for the cops to even consider action in your favour.
From the photos it looks like this character was trying to answer the damage to his car with damage to her bike, but it just ended up looking like a guy assaulting a woman in another road rage incident on the street.
If you want to detain someone, it is a real bad idea under Canadian Law to physically try to hold them if they haven't already assaulted or threatened you or someone else. If you did, you could get in a great deal of trouble yourself and much more so if it was a woman and you were a man.
Hypothetically speaking, It would be much better to just grab their bike and hold onto it while calling the police. Even that would be a bit dicey, and you're still going to need witnesses and obvious intent for the cops to even consider action in your favour.
From the photos it looks like this character was trying to answer the damage to his car with damage to her bike, but it just ended up looking like a guy assaulting a woman in another road rage incident on the street.
01-27-06, 06:53 PM
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And now for something completely different, the messenger herself...
Originally Posted by Leah
Hello all! I am the girl in the pics. My name is Leah and although I am a courier, I was WALKING my bike up Agusta when the incident took place. He was driving and opened his door (while driving) and yelling profanities he threw his beef patty on a bun out of his door. I walked over to his car, and right or wrong, I opened the door and "gave" him back his food (which he MUST have dropped by accident!) He then lost it, and jumped out of his car and threw 2 large Timmies at meand then grabbed me by my helmet and tried to toss me around a bit.It was at that point that my bike lock key (that I wear on a bracelet around my wrist) scratched his car. I have read all the postings about people sympathetic to the car driver due to the expense of repairing the scratch but sorry folks, i doubt that it will cost him anything to repair as it was a 1.2cm mark in the clearcoat only(did not damage the paint) but regardless a scratch none the less. Then with some "encouraging" from some helpfull bystanders he got in his car and drove away...or so I thought! People were comming up to me and saying that I should have him charged but at that point I just figured I had made my anti-littering point and and eye for and eye with the coffee shower, I mean I did throw that patty right. But just as I was getting on my bike to ride home he came running back and thats when the photos start. He had driven half a block and decided that the scratch was worthy of a more thorough beating I guess.
Now for a bit of clarity on a couple of things...
The blonde girl is his girlfriend...she also makes a pretty good shield from an angry mob!
I was NOT punching anyone! especially not with keys in my hand! I was just trying to save my bike (I just built it a week ago!!)
And as for the police charging him....
He took off in his car as soon as he heard the sirens....they chased him down but it is not a crime to leave the scene. They were going to charge him with a variety of things including assult with a weapon x2, mischief x2, aggravated assult, etc, but the police informed me that if I went ahead and placed those charges then they would have to charge me with mischeif for the scratch.
So in the interests of good karma (and my own sanity) I have opted to "let it go" and allow the universe to repay this angermanagement case in its own way.
And finally to those who say that i must have had a sudden case of self ritousness in regard to littering.....YOU ARE WRONG! I hate littering and NEVER do> In fact I am constantly picking up litter and make my son pick up litter at the park. I just feel that it is such a fixable issue in the world today. If everyone would not throw their own piece of litter then there would be none!! What a concept eh!?
enjoy the beautiful winter riding!
Now for a bit of clarity on a couple of things...
The blonde girl is his girlfriend...she also makes a pretty good shield from an angry mob!
I was NOT punching anyone! especially not with keys in my hand! I was just trying to save my bike (I just built it a week ago!!)
And as for the police charging him....
He took off in his car as soon as he heard the sirens....they chased him down but it is not a crime to leave the scene. They were going to charge him with a variety of things including assult with a weapon x2, mischief x2, aggravated assult, etc, but the police informed me that if I went ahead and placed those charges then they would have to charge me with mischeif for the scratch.
So in the interests of good karma (and my own sanity) I have opted to "let it go" and allow the universe to repay this angermanagement case in its own way.
And finally to those who say that i must have had a sudden case of self ritousness in regard to littering.....YOU ARE WRONG! I hate littering and NEVER do> In fact I am constantly picking up litter and make my son pick up litter at the park. I just feel that it is such a fixable issue in the world today. If everyone would not throw their own piece of litter then there would be none!! What a concept eh!?
enjoy the beautiful winter riding!
01-27-06, 07:00 PM
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"Timmies?" Brand name, like "Starbucks?"
01-27-06, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by genec
"Timmies?" Brand name, like "Starbucks?"
01-27-06, 07:51 PM
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Don't it figure that a w_nker like that would have a hot blonde for a GF? Personally I thought the messenger was hotter - I love a gal with spunk! Gawd I'm a pig! 
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"Let us hope our weapons are never needed --but do not forget what the common people knew when they demanded the Bill of Rights: An armed citizenry is the first defense, the best defense, and the final defense against tyranny. If guns are outlawed, only the government will have guns. Only the police, the secret police, the military, the hired servants of our rulers. Only the government -- and a few outlaws. I intend to be among the outlaws" - Edward Abbey
01-27-06, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by chipcom
Don't it figure that a w_nker like that would have a hot blonde for a GF? Personally I thought the messenger was hotter - I love a gal with spunk! Gawd I'm a pig!
01-27-06, 08:12 PM
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Originally Posted by ObscureRefMan
motorist throws food out of window. courier, disliking littering, picks up food and throws food back in car.
However I don't think it's wise to stick around much longer after that. Throw it back in and get out of there.
01-27-06, 08:16 PM
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Originally Posted by bike messenger girl
They were going to charge him with a variety of things including assult with a weapon x2, mischief x2, aggravated assult, etc, but the police informed me that if I went ahead and placed those charges then they would have to charge me with mischeif for the scratch.
So in the interests of good karma (and my own sanity) I have opted to "let it go" and allow the universe to repay this angermanagement case in its own way.
So in the interests of good karma (and my own sanity) I have opted to "let it go" and allow the universe to repay this angermanagement case in its own way.
01-27-06, 09:15 PM
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Gee just a bit situation all together, made progressively worse by their actions. I've been in bad situations where things got heated, just glad it didn't get anywhere close to such a confrontation. I guess if someone dumped coffee on my Chrome bag I'd be a wee bit angry.
01-27-06, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by Keith99
Hardly, my car is a tool, nothing more. But someone who deliberatly damages the property of someone else is a criminal and deserves to be treated as a criminal. If you really felt someone deliberately and repeatedly damaged your property and took no action you are both a wimp and a poor citizen. What will she do next? Perhaps tap a cyclist to show her displeasure because he is taking up part of her road?
The driver also went after the camera guy with a baseball bat, and the police did not arrest him.
01-27-06, 11:29 PM
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Tim Horton's is the Canadian Dunkin Donuts, not the Canadian Charbucks!!!!
I've sworn off Canada as much as possible after being forced to pay for refills at a 'timmie's' over 20 years ago....you canooks that frequent Tim Horton's should be getting free refills of that lousy swill passed off as coffee up north there.
I've sworn off Canada as much as possible after being forced to pay for refills at a 'timmie's' over 20 years ago....you canooks that frequent Tim Horton's should be getting free refills of that lousy swill passed off as coffee up north there.
01-28-06, 12:05 AM
#25
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Originally Posted by Dchiefransom
When did she deliberately damage his property? Did you read all of the responses? The courier (Leah), explained what happened waaaay down in the posts. The guy grabbed her helmet and was wrestling her around. While he was doing this, the key to her lock, which is around her wrist, ended up scratching his car. The driver actually had left the scene, then came back to assault her again.
The driver also went after the camera guy with a baseball bat, and the police did not arrest him.
The driver also went after the camera guy with a baseball bat, and the police did not arrest him.
