njkayaker

If you don't pedal, it's not really an "e-bike". It's an electric moped.

Polaris OBark

My DIY CycPhoton conversion has an optional throttle. After reading comments such as this, I decided to take it out for a spin yesterday, and pressed down on the throttle for a minute or two, and stopped pedaling.

Based on the above statement, and that of Veganbikes, I predicted that this drop bar steel mountain bike would instantly transmogrify into an electric moped, but sadly, nothing happened.

In other news, I have noticed that my conventional bikes don't transmogrify into scooters every time I decided to coast. It could be that the Chris King hub noises somehow interfere, or, much less likely, the prediction might somehow have been in error.

3alarmer 

.
....you need a real, scientifically based transmogrifier, for that to work.

3alarmer 

...I realize you probably don't follow the recent developments in this industry, but this statement is incorrect. Here's the latest Juiced marketing campaign. Clearly they are making and selling a couple of "e-bikes" that exceed 750 watts (or about 1HP) in power. They are not alone in going in that direction. A peak motor output of 1800 watts is more than enough to qualify as dangerous, when applied on two wheels.

Maelochs

It is not a "conspiracy" if it is real.

3alarmer 

...I've had you on ignore, but I suppose this one deserves a response. Congressional lobbying is a real thing, so if this is not more snark (which I suspect it is), you are partially correct. Without lobbying by manufacturers and other special interests, we'd have to pay the same prices for drugs as all the other first world countries. That would provide fewer reasons for trips across the border into Mexico and Canada, to buy them cheaply. That would be horrible.

Are you really naive enough to suggest that manufacturers of bicycles had no input on this legislation? That's sweet.

njkayaker

You are saying, since they too can coast, cars are bicycles. One could pedal mopeds and no one called them bicycles.

Being able to coast your normal bicycle derives (nearly always) from pedaling (human power). So, it's still "human powered" when coasting.

===============================

There are a bunch of laws restricting access to certain facilities to "nonmotorized vehicles". The e-bikes you have to pedal (that don't have throttles) might exist (in part) to allow them in such places (by them being "motor assist").

(I suspect there aren't many bicycle clubs that allow the don't-have-to-pedal types.)

It would be easier/cheaper for the manufacturers to not have models with and without throttles. So, there's has to be a compelling reason to have both.

Maelochs

The overpowered bikes which are listed in post #154 a re Not designed for road use. This means that if a rider chooses to ignore regulations and ride such a machine on the roadways ... the manufacturer is not at fault.

As (I think) @njkayaker noted (post #150), the police cannot and do not try to enforce consumer protection laws ... all they can do is issue traffic citations if they see actual offenses occur.

I can absolutely guarantee you that there are no organizations of producers or promoters of e-bikes which are devising these regulations and lobbying to get them enacted ... on Mars .... (or on the paper or the cheese Moons.)

It is not a conspiracy, it is a random concatenation of unexpected occurrences which just happen all to favor the people trying to make a quick killing on e-bikes.

And Mr. Hski .... the first article which only referenced but didn't quote some study (which no one has subsequently found, to demonstrate if it was misquoted or misinterpreted) claimed that e-bikes offered more overall exercise ... or whatever.. I did nto bother reading the other cited studies ... but i did note this note:

(Post #143 From PubMed:
Quote:
Health benefits of electrically-assisted cycling: a systematic review

Results: Seventeen studies (11 acute experiments, 6 longitudinal interventions) were identified involving a total of 300 participants. There was moderate evidence that e-cycling provided physical activity of at least moderate intensity, which was lower than the intensity elicited during conventional cycling, but higher than that during walking. There was also moderate evidence that e-cycling can improve cardiorespiratory fitness in physically inactive individuals. Evidence of the impact of e-cycling on metabolic and psychological health outcomes was inconclusive. Longitudinal evidence was compromised by weak study design and quality.

Which categorically proves that bouncing on an e-bike is more taxing than sitting on a couch ... but the studies were so poorly designed, no one can say if it even matters in the long run.

As I mentioned earlier, we al know all this. E-bikes are varied, people are varied, exercise routines and needs ... and the exercise equipment in no way determines the outcome of the exercise session. What did that dude say ... " full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.”

mschwett 

it is indeed a bit nuanced, but the 20mph limit is explicitly mentioned, with the actual language around the speed limit being:

"...whose maximum speed on a paved level surface, when powered solely by such a motor while ridden by an operator who weighs 170 pounds, is less than 20 mph."

this actually doesn't imply a motor cut-off at 20mph, more like the motor can continue supplying the amount of power that is required to go 20mph on level ground indefinitely, and if the rider is capable of adding some power, you can in fact go faster with the motor still active. however, that amount of power is really only 150-300 watts, depending on tires and drag and all that, far less than what most full weight ebikes will do. the definition is very clear that you can't have a motor pumping out 750w while you're going 25 or 30mph. it's a fairly clever definition but i have never seen any document or vehicle which actually takes into the account the nuance of that wording, in other words, that the controller allows operation up to 20mph on level ground solely from the motor, but doesn't actually cut that power off immediately at 20.1mph, which i don't see as required by that definition. there's also the obvious fact that a 750w motor can propel you UPHILL at 20mph, which i assume is allowed, but not specifically stated, nor do any ebike controllers actually care if you're going uphill or not!

mschwett 

i would note that just because juiced says it's an e-bike doesn't mean it's legal to ride on the street without registration and insurance. they can call it whatever they want, it's illegal to ride on public streets/paths in most states at those power levels. juiced themselves has a lot to say on the subject, taking advantage of a "switch" which in their mind turns the bike into a class 2 bike. i'm not sure that's really a legally correct strategy, since the switch can be switched at will.

https://www.juicedbikes.com/blogs/ne...nd-regulations

spelger

where are you pulling that from. i went back to look at the image and did not see that. there was a usage row but nothing to indicate you could not use the bike on a road.

njkayaker

It's clear there's no requirement to cut off power.

The law is indicating that the motor can only output a limited amount of useful power (the power needed to move a 170lb rider at 20 mph on level ground). (It would not be a reasonable interpretation that the law is saying the power limit only applies to riders who happen to be exactly 170lbs.)

Thus, if you are a 170lb (or heavier) rider going faster than 20 mph on level ground, the extra power is coming from your legs. (Note that the maximum speed will be higher for lighter riders.)

I suspect that a set -up that limits the power output on level ground is not going to add extra power going uphill.

The point of the "a 170lb rider at 20 mph on level ground" language is to make a clear situation to test against.

Maelochs

Combine the parts where class 2 and class 3 are street legal as per already cited regulations about specific power output and top speed and the fact that all the bikes with twice that power and greater top speed have (Off-Roads) next to them .... or don't. whatever.


We are all free to examine all the data and draw whatever conclusions. You can agree or not ... but there is what I saw. Now you see it too.

3alarmer 

...thanks. I'll go back to ignoring you, and you can go back to telling people they are dishonest. It's comforting to know that none of these legislative efforts on state and federal levels, had manufacturers involved. Where would that leave us, with regard to legislation ?

Note the key phrases, which I have bolded for you to make it easier. Note also that everyone from Specialized on down, jumped in early on this as a way to sell more product. More and stricter regulation = sell less product. It's a relatively simple equation.

3alarmer 

...because the honor system has worked so well on this, up until now.

Maelochs

LOL you are hilarious ..... can you please keep completely missing the point? I cannot stop laughing ......

njkayaker

It seems like it would be cheaper/easier for manufacturers not to make models with and without throttles. That they do make both models suggests there's a good reason for having both.

There are places where the law prohibits "motorized vehicles". I suspect not having throttles was a way to try to satisfy some states that they weren't really "motor vehicles".

(Most, if not all, bicycle clubs don't allow the ones with throttles.)

3alarmer 

...like I said.

Polaris OBark

No, I am not. And I know you know that.



I haven't done an exhaustive search, but what all of these appear to have in common is that they are based on Chinese-made conversion kits, which come with an optional throttle. BFANG is one such example Cyc is another. Mine came with one, so I used it, initially for diagnostic purposes, but then I realized it actually had some utility for getting started on a hill. (One of the main problems my wife has with her Class 1 ebike is she finds it very hard to get re-started if she has to stop on a hill. It is reminiscent of riding a fully-loaded touring bike, and she has degenerative arthritis.)

The commercial e-bikes I have seen (Cannondale, which my wife has, Trek, Specialized, Santa Cruz, etc) don't have optional throttles, as far as I am aware.

I took my e-bike conversion out for a quick spin yesterday, and used the throttle more than I ever have before, cumulative, just to play around with it. My average speed on that ride was 11.5 mph. My max speed, about 22 mph, was going downhill unassisted. Even if I had throttled it the whole way, I doubt I would have exceeded about 12 mph. The reason for this is quite simple: I set the bike up with a 30T front chainring (the largest that would fit this frame without a Q-factor atrocity) and I don't have a burning need to go faster. The conversion kit makes it really easy for those interested to re-program and "hot rod" their e-bike. I have no interest in doing that.

My wife could really benefit from having a throttle to get (re)-started, and it could potentially help her avoid further injury. If we could add one to her bike, I would. I decided to keep mine in place if I need to get started under unfavorable conditions or if I need to escape a dangerous situation quickly. This isn't the kind of bike I would take on a club ride, and I actually don't enjoy riding it recreationally. It is an alternative to having a second, back-up car.

BTW, they don't cost a whole lot:

Polaris OBark

There is.

For class 1, assist must cut off at 20mph. The high-quality systems like Bosch make a big selling point of how they ramp down the assist as they approach 20 mph so that the transition is smooth. In other words, if you are pedaling at 21 mph, you are doing so without any assist on a class 1 ebike. I tried this on my wife's bike. The transition is smooth, but I can feel it.

For class 3, the cutoff is 28mph. I assume it works the same way with the throttle and class 2.

njkayaker

What you said was dumb. And you managed to carefully elide all the reasons why it was dumb.

The fact of coasting has nothing to do with where the energy is coming from.

There is likely a reason they don't have throttles. It's not them being "disingenuous" (weird word to use) as somebody else said. I suspect a big part of it is to make them work with the established bicycle laws.

Note that I don't care whether you use or like having a throttle.

The regular bike companies are making e-bikes that are legally bicycles in every state (that can be used in every place normal bicycles can). They are making a choice to make their e-bikes more like regular bicycles than like electric mopeds. Since people manage to use regular bicycles without throttles, they should be able to manage to use e-bikes without throttles.

Of course, nothing is going to work for everybody.

njkayaker

Thanks.

It's the easiest thing to do.

Note that this (a federal consumer safety law) is not requiring a cut-off just based on speed. (It's also not talking about e-bike classes, which can and do have other requirements.)

For this particular law, clearly, a speed-only cut-off is sufficient but not necessary.

Pop N Wood

There have been even higher power systems available for years. Not sure what that has to do with the legal definition of a low power ebike vs a motor vehicle. If the power output exceeds what is legally allowed they become motor vehicles. Motor vehicles need a bunch of things to be legally ridden on public roads.

Pop N Wood

Man, I'm not reading it the way you are.

Pop N Wood

Again, not all states adopted the various classes, and there is no guarantee that the states that did defined them exactly the same. I don't believe there is a federal regulation limiting speed. Some European countries do. Bosch units designed for the European market carry some of that over, like their 250 watt limit.