what I'd like in a touring app
#26
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Since I usually don't bring any technology with me other than a Spot, an app wouldn't do me much good. However, I may bring a toy along sometime in the future and I'm a little disappointed that so many people are trying to shut the OP down. If you're not interested in his game, don't play.
If I were to go the smartphone route, I'd like an app to look for campgrounds with showers near my route. I'm incredibly partial to having a shower at day's end and the only planning I do usually revolves around making that happen. If I need to do a couple of 200 mile days in a row to have showers, I generally just do it (not as bad as it sounds since I usually average over 100 miles per day).
If I were to go the smartphone route, I'd like an app to look for campgrounds with showers near my route. I'm incredibly partial to having a shower at day's end and the only planning I do usually revolves around making that happen. If I need to do a couple of 200 mile days in a row to have showers, I generally just do it (not as bad as it sounds since I usually average over 100 miles per day).
#27
Senior Member
1. Distance/estimated time to next food/drink
2. Distance/elevation gain to top of current hill
#28
Senior Member
Okay, I'm not offering to code it, you don't mention what's meant by "app" even. Is this going to be distributed via some app store and downloaded on the phone or is it to run directly in the phone's browser? What phones are you targeting here?
Okay, GPS is easy, geocoding that to a street address, more difficult, but not impossible.
Errm, how do you define "automatically when needed"? You could rely on cell phone tower location databases like OpenCellID to get an approximate location, but that's not going to work unless you're in an area with coverage.
Okay, so some kind of primitive social networking where you can stalk your "friends" (people on your contact list, some of whom may be genuine friends).
That's going to chew through SMSes rather rapidly depending on update rate and will be a privacy minefield.
You might want to have a look at APRS for ideas. APRS is decades old now, traditionally runs over the VHF/UHF amateur radio bands using 1200 baud packet radio modems using a subset of the AX.25 protocol.
Since the data link is 1200 baud (i.e. if you were to download files over it, your download rate would be less than 150 bytes per second), you want to minimise the amount of traffic you send, so many APRS trackers use what's called SmartBeaconing, where they adjust the update rate depending on your speed of travel and rate of change in direction.
You can then use a client application to display this on a map like this:
or more elaborately like this.
Of the phone or the cyclist? Not all phones have accelerometers to detect a crash and a lot of accidental movements could look like a crash too.
How about services not on Google?
Sounds a lot like 5, no?
You might want to have a look at APRS for ideas. APRS is decades old now, traditionally runs over the VHF/UHF amateur radio bands using 1200 baud packet radio modems using a subset of the AX.25 protocol.
Since the data link is 1200 baud (i.e. if you were to download files over it, your download rate would be less than 150 bytes per second), you want to minimise the amount of traffic you send, so many APRS trackers use what's called SmartBeaconing, where they adjust the update rate depending on your speed of travel and rate of change in direction.
You can then use a client application to display this on a map like this:
or more elaborately like this.
Of the phone or the cyclist? Not all phones have accelerometers to detect a crash and a lot of accidental movements could look like a crash too.
How about services not on Google?
Sounds a lot like 5, no?
#29
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I've been seeing a lot of questions on various forums regarding apps for displaying their map coordinates to others.
Instead of asking about what apps people use, I thought I'd put down what I'd like from an app and I thought maybe others would want to chime in too:
1. report current address and gps coordinates at configurable intervals.
2. Shut off gps when not required by the app to save battery. Wake up gps automatically when needed.
3. Easily add 'friends' to ongoing tour profile (NFC, wifi, texting number, etc).
4. Friends location update via SMS/TXT (configurable). (SMS messages are almost always available.)
5. Track friends on map
6. Permissions for location - coarse, fine, friends only, etc.
7. Sense crash
8. Use Google Places API to look up local services
9. Display services, friends, etc. on a map
10. ...?...
Instead of asking about what apps people use, I thought I'd put down what I'd like from an app and I thought maybe others would want to chime in too:
1. report current address and gps coordinates at configurable intervals.
2. Shut off gps when not required by the app to save battery. Wake up gps automatically when needed.
3. Easily add 'friends' to ongoing tour profile (NFC, wifi, texting number, etc).
4. Friends location update via SMS/TXT (configurable). (SMS messages are almost always available.)
5. Track friends on map
6. Permissions for location - coarse, fine, friends only, etc.
7. Sense crash
8. Use Google Places API to look up local services
9. Display services, friends, etc. on a map
10. ...?...
Here's the problem.
1. The APPS will need Data on all the time -- If the app is going to do all these tasks, it will need to be pulling data constantly. Therefore, everyone in the group will need a very good and costly data plan.
2. To get the apps to function 100% or close to it, will require that everyone has Verizon --- If someone in the group is using Sprint or T-Mobile, expect them to lose you as their service will be non-existant in the middle of no where.
I was thinking a better plan would be if everyone was carying a portable CB radio to communicate on the road. They are not that expensive but then again, there's the weight and another battery to charge.
#30
Senior Member
I think from the description, the idea was to send position updates via SMS… not necessarily relying on everyone being on a specific carrier (Verizon would be useless here for example unless they had a peering arrangement with Telstra/Optus). The concept being that people who are not with you, can track you.
However, doing it with any kind of frequency would drive the "friends" barmy with SMSes and send phone bills through the roof. Not sure what the charges are these days, but I recall my charges being something like 10-20c/SMS through Telstra back in 2001 when I got my mobile service.
A tracking application like this has its purposes. Google did have their Latitude service, however they had problem monetising it, so on the scrap heap it went.
APRS is the closest I can immediately think of, but it requires people have an amateur radio license, and the privacy options are more limited: I can give a position ambiguity so that the location covers a 2km² area, but everyone including the general public, see the same data, there's no option to send some a precise location and others a more grainy one. The concepts in the SmartBeaconing would be worth duplicating however, since that's solving a problem you have with 3G: overuse of a data channel.
However, doing it with any kind of frequency would drive the "friends" barmy with SMSes and send phone bills through the roof. Not sure what the charges are these days, but I recall my charges being something like 10-20c/SMS through Telstra back in 2001 when I got my mobile service.
A tracking application like this has its purposes. Google did have their Latitude service, however they had problem monetising it, so on the scrap heap it went.
APRS is the closest I can immediately think of, but it requires people have an amateur radio license, and the privacy options are more limited: I can give a position ambiguity so that the location covers a 2km² area, but everyone including the general public, see the same data, there's no option to send some a precise location and others a more grainy one. The concepts in the SmartBeaconing would be worth duplicating however, since that's solving a problem you have with 3G: overuse of a data channel.
#31
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The reason I'd like to have the ability to optionally do updates by SMS is because I recognize that in a lot of areas you don't have any cellphone network available. SMS runs through a data channel that doesn't rely on the cellphone's internet / gprs being available. If you have the ability to dial, you have the ability to do SMS. Phones are capable of intercepting sms messages, acting on them, and deleting the SMS prior to a person seeing it so it doesn't really have to be something that drives someone crazy with the updates.
I agree that there can be a cost involved in it but that's why I'd like to see it as an optional feature.
I agree that there can be a cost involved in it but that's why I'd like to see it as an optional feature.
I think from the description, the idea was to send position updates via SMS… not necessarily relying on everyone being on a specific carrier (Verizon would be useless here for example unless they had a peering arrangement with Telstra/Optus). The concept being that people who are not with you, can track you.
However, doing it with any kind of frequency would drive the "friends" barmy with SMSes and send phone bills through the roof. Not sure what the charges are these days, but I recall my charges being something like 10-20c/SMS through Telstra back in 2001 when I got my mobile service.
A tracking application like this has its purposes. Google did have their Latitude service, however they had problem monetising it, so on the scrap heap it went.
APRS is the closest I can immediately think of, but it requires people have an amateur radio license, and the privacy options are more limited: I can give a position ambiguity so that the location covers a 2km² area, but everyone including the general public, see the same data, there's no option to send some a precise location and others a more grainy one. The concepts in the SmartBeaconing would be worth duplicating however, since that's solving a problem you have with 3G: overuse of a data channel.
However, doing it with any kind of frequency would drive the "friends" barmy with SMSes and send phone bills through the roof. Not sure what the charges are these days, but I recall my charges being something like 10-20c/SMS through Telstra back in 2001 when I got my mobile service.
A tracking application like this has its purposes. Google did have their Latitude service, however they had problem monetising it, so on the scrap heap it went.
APRS is the closest I can immediately think of, but it requires people have an amateur radio license, and the privacy options are more limited: I can give a position ambiguity so that the location covers a 2km² area, but everyone including the general public, see the same data, there's no option to send some a precise location and others a more grainy one. The concepts in the SmartBeaconing would be worth duplicating however, since that's solving a problem you have with 3G: overuse of a data channel.
#32
Senior Member
A voice app hat says:
You should have brought along a paper map of this area and followed that. My battery is about to expire and you don't have a cell service, you don't have a way to recharge the battery or a spare one, you are stuck out in the middle of nowhere with it getting dark, and you have put all your faith in me to tell you where you are and where to go. You are on your own, now. Have fun, sucker!!
/sarcasm
You should have brought along a paper map of this area and followed that. My battery is about to expire and you don't have a cell service, you don't have a way to recharge the battery or a spare one, you are stuck out in the middle of nowhere with it getting dark, and you have put all your faith in me to tell you where you are and where to go. You are on your own, now. Have fun, sucker!!
/sarcasm
#33
Senior Member
The reason I'd like to have the ability to optionally do updates by SMS is because I recognize that in a lot of areas you don't have any cellphone network available. SMS runs through a data channel that doesn't rely on the cellphone's internet / gprs being available. If you have the ability to dial, you have the ability to do SMS. Phones are capable of intercepting sms messages, acting on them, and deleting the SMS prior to a person seeing it so it doesn't really have to be something that drives someone crazy with the updates.
I agree that there can be a cost involved in it but that's why I'd like to see it as an optional feature.
I agree that there can be a cost involved in it but that's why I'd like to see it as an optional feature.
I remember when we had one big storm hit our area of Brisbane (The Gap) in late 2008. It took out the local mobile phone tower so basically all of The Gap had no mobile phone coverage. My phone (a Nokia 3310) would occasionally get the odd SMS message from Michelton or Red Hill. It did not have sufficient transmit power to reach the towers to send replies, and of course, phone calls were a no go.
Had the thing been capable of GPRS, I suspect that would struggle too.
The other consideration here is the likelihood that you'd have voice/SMS availability without an Internet service. 2G is circuit-switched and so you have to actually physically connect to the Internet. With the move to 3G, the network became packet switched, and so establishing calls forwarding Internet traffic is merely a matter of slicing and encapsulation.
4G moves to transmitting the voice data over TCP/IP.
2G is slowly being phased out… so I think the chances are good that, if you have no Internet coverage, SMS won't work either.
A voice app hat says:
You should have brought along a paper map of this area and followed that. My battery is about to expire and you don't have a cell service, you don't have a way to recharge the battery or a spare one, you are stuck out in the middle of nowhere with it getting dark, and you have put all your faith in me to tell you where you are and where to go. You are on your own, now. Have fun, sucker!!
/sarcasm
You should have brought along a paper map of this area and followed that. My battery is about to expire and you don't have a cell service, you don't have a way to recharge the battery or a spare one, you are stuck out in the middle of nowhere with it getting dark, and you have put all your faith in me to tell you where you are and where to go. You are on your own, now. Have fun, sucker!!
/sarcasm
#34
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#35
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LOL. Great post.
really? ya need an app for dat?
i s'pose i'm showin' ma age....but back in the
day, if we was bleedin' and had gravel pokin'
in our knees, we prolly done crashed.
no wait, as a society, we are doomed.
i just read this:
"Hydration-tracking water bottle glows when you need a drink"
Hydration-tracking water bottle glows when you need a drink - CNET
"It has a sensor inside that tracks how much you drink and it transmits that information to an accompanying app on your smartphone via Bluetooth. The app collects data about your physical stats and activity levels and then calculates your ideal water intake per day. A graphic of a drop fills up the more you drink till you've reached your goal. If it's been awhile since your last guzzle, the bottle will glow to remind to take a swig.
Additionally, the app can track your location and adjust your recommended water intake based on that. If you're in the desert in Arizona for example, you might need more water than if you're in the Louisiana bayou."
so yeah, now you got an app that can alert your friends that you
fall down go boom hurt your boo-boo, please bring some water.
i s'pose i'm showin' ma age....but back in the
day, if we was bleedin' and had gravel pokin'
in our knees, we prolly done crashed.
no wait, as a society, we are doomed.
i just read this:
"Hydration-tracking water bottle glows when you need a drink"
Hydration-tracking water bottle glows when you need a drink - CNET
"It has a sensor inside that tracks how much you drink and it transmits that information to an accompanying app on your smartphone via Bluetooth. The app collects data about your physical stats and activity levels and then calculates your ideal water intake per day. A graphic of a drop fills up the more you drink till you've reached your goal. If it's been awhile since your last guzzle, the bottle will glow to remind to take a swig.
Additionally, the app can track your location and adjust your recommended water intake based on that. If you're in the desert in Arizona for example, you might need more water than if you're in the Louisiana bayou."
so yeah, now you got an app that can alert your friends that you
fall down go boom hurt your boo-boo, please bring some water.
This one had me LOL.
Thanks for the addition of the "water app".
I guess the next one will be an app that tells you when to pee.
#36
Senior Member
On a more serious note I've almost found the set of perfect touring apps on my android phone. Nothing to do with messaging or tracking but everything to do with navigation.
I've decided to use in unison Oruxmaps and OsmAnd.
Oruxmaps because
1) it's fast, especially when compared to the OsmAnd
2) Offline GPS tracking
3) Offline maps of the whole touring area, ie Europe in relatively compact space with ridiculous accuracy (although some setbacks which I'll get back to)
4) Waypoint creation system so in simple terms I can plot an easy intersection to intersection route every day for the next day. Kinda tedious but if I want to stay on small roads its useful
5) The maps I use show bicycle repair shops, rain cover (bus stops, sheds, whatnot), water sources and other neat cycling related stuff
6) the maps also show official bicycle routes and cycleways with different colors (Eurovelo for example)
Using it almost 100% offline is handy since the roaming freedom has not yet hit full force in Europe so I'm not too keen on paying ridiculous prices per megabyte when I'm outside our national limits. Also saves battery when all internet networkings are off.
CONS of the Oruxmaps (or actually more like the maps I'll use offline) are
1) doesn't show road size. This will be an issue when plotting routes offline. On online maps I can get very accurate road size info and plot my route on the smaller roads. However if I don't have an internet connection I will either have to follow official routes and cycleways (detours) or I will have to use two phones for the plotting with OsmAnd (good thing we have 2)
2) very poor or nonexistant database for utilites such as camping sites, or restaurants, hotels etc.
3) quite poor route plotting tool. Doesn't recoqnize roads so one needs go with vector waypoints.
So to supplement the Oruxmaps We'll use OsmAnd which has
1) a massive database of all the utilities we'll need in the whole Europe area offline and also a neat search function which is location based so we can find camping site or hotel or hostel or motel nearest to us, OR nearest to our destination for that day. Pretty neat
2) shows road sizes offline, even though the cycleway map is really, really bad.
3) again, everything happens offline with predownloaded info. Takes up space from the phone but not really that much.
OsmAnd is also
1) a lot slower and clunkier than Oruxmaps
2) worse utility in that it's not as complex
3) would not use for actual navigation except in an emergency or trying to find a camping site (but that will be plotted into oruxmaps beforehand anyway so hopefully no need)
Sooo yeah. Having a phone mounted on the handlebar bag so that a click opens up the map really helps with areas with lost of intersections and stuff. We also have a habit of going off course every once in a while so it'll help with that as well.
I've decided to use in unison Oruxmaps and OsmAnd.
Oruxmaps because
1) it's fast, especially when compared to the OsmAnd
2) Offline GPS tracking
3) Offline maps of the whole touring area, ie Europe in relatively compact space with ridiculous accuracy (although some setbacks which I'll get back to)
4) Waypoint creation system so in simple terms I can plot an easy intersection to intersection route every day for the next day. Kinda tedious but if I want to stay on small roads its useful
5) The maps I use show bicycle repair shops, rain cover (bus stops, sheds, whatnot), water sources and other neat cycling related stuff
6) the maps also show official bicycle routes and cycleways with different colors (Eurovelo for example)
Using it almost 100% offline is handy since the roaming freedom has not yet hit full force in Europe so I'm not too keen on paying ridiculous prices per megabyte when I'm outside our national limits. Also saves battery when all internet networkings are off.
CONS of the Oruxmaps (or actually more like the maps I'll use offline) are
1) doesn't show road size. This will be an issue when plotting routes offline. On online maps I can get very accurate road size info and plot my route on the smaller roads. However if I don't have an internet connection I will either have to follow official routes and cycleways (detours) or I will have to use two phones for the plotting with OsmAnd (good thing we have 2)
2) very poor or nonexistant database for utilites such as camping sites, or restaurants, hotels etc.
3) quite poor route plotting tool. Doesn't recoqnize roads so one needs go with vector waypoints.
So to supplement the Oruxmaps We'll use OsmAnd which has
1) a massive database of all the utilities we'll need in the whole Europe area offline and also a neat search function which is location based so we can find camping site or hotel or hostel or motel nearest to us, OR nearest to our destination for that day. Pretty neat
2) shows road sizes offline, even though the cycleway map is really, really bad.
3) again, everything happens offline with predownloaded info. Takes up space from the phone but not really that much.
OsmAnd is also
1) a lot slower and clunkier than Oruxmaps
2) worse utility in that it's not as complex
3) would not use for actual navigation except in an emergency or trying to find a camping site (but that will be plotted into oruxmaps beforehand anyway so hopefully no need)
Sooo yeah. Having a phone mounted on the handlebar bag so that a click opens up the map really helps with areas with lost of intersections and stuff. We also have a habit of going off course every once in a while so it'll help with that as well.
#37
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I've been seeing a lot of questions on various forums regarding apps for displaying their map coordinates to others.
Instead of asking about what apps people use, I thought I'd put down what I'd like from an app and I thought maybe others would want to chime in too:
1. report current address and gps coordinates at configurable intervals.
2. Shut off gps when not required by the app to save battery. Wake up gps automatically when needed.
3. Easily add 'friends' to ongoing tour profile (NFC, wifi, texting number, etc).
4. Friends location update via SMS/TXT (configurable). (SMS messages are almost always available.)
5. Track friends on map
6. Permissions for location - coarse, fine, friends only, etc.
Instead of asking about what apps people use, I thought I'd put down what I'd like from an app and I thought maybe others would want to chime in too:
1. report current address and gps coordinates at configurable intervals.
2. Shut off gps when not required by the app to save battery. Wake up gps automatically when needed.
3. Easily add 'friends' to ongoing tour profile (NFC, wifi, texting number, etc).
4. Friends location update via SMS/TXT (configurable). (SMS messages are almost always available.)
5. Track friends on map
6. Permissions for location - coarse, fine, friends only, etc.
https://play.google.com/store/apps/d...tracker2&hl=en
That being said, I wouldn't use it without having an auxiliary power source.
#38
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Seems like some fairly sensible ideas. Couple folks snorted at the crash thing--but don't phones have some sort of acceleration sensor? Not a dumb idea at all IMO. But corps/coders not much interested in the tiny touring market. Garmin etc still can't handle pre-programmed routes very well. Racing/fitness GPS's probably outsell touring models by 10:1 at least.
#39
Senior Member
I'm gathering some ideas for a web application that might help in planning tours, but the ideas there are more in line with giving good elevation data and offering a reasonable estimate about how long it will take to get there having inputted what one's acceleration characteristics were on different grades. (Google's "bicycling directions" estimates seem a way too optimistic for my liking.)
#40
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Mine doesn't. My previous four didn't, and my next one probably won't either.
I'm gathering some ideas for a web application that might help in planning tours, but the ideas there are more in line with giving good elevation data and offering a reasonable estimate about how long it will take to get there having inputted what one's acceleration characteristics were on different grades. (Google's "bicycling directions" estimates seem a way too optimistic for my liking.)
I'm gathering some ideas for a web application that might help in planning tours, but the ideas there are more in line with giving good elevation data and offering a reasonable estimate about how long it will take to get there having inputted what one's acceleration characteristics were on different grades. (Google's "bicycling directions" estimates seem a way too optimistic for my liking.)
What is Accelerometer and how does it work on smartphones
"Accelerometer is also used in many devices like laptop for detecting drops. Whenever any drop is detected, it signals the hard disk's heads and they are parked or stopped to avoid the data losses."
#41
Senior Member
My understanding is that accelerometers are basically std feature in most current smartphones.
What is Accelerometer and how does it work on smartphones
"Accelerometer is also used in many devices like laptop for detecting drops. Whenever any drop is detected, it signals the hard disk's heads and they are parked or stopped to avoid the data losses."
What is Accelerometer and how does it work on smartphones
"Accelerometer is also used in many devices like laptop for detecting drops. Whenever any drop is detected, it signals the hard disk's heads and they are parked or stopped to avoid the data losses."
I've only ever seen accelerometers in the higher end phones. Phones that lack the basic functionality that my needs call for like being able to make a voice phone call in a weak signal area.
By weak, I mean a weak enough area that the internal antenna just doesn't cut it, and inductive or capacitive coupling incurs too much loss. I've been in a few places where the phone didn't work without plugging a cable into a small port in the back of the phone.
The use of accelerometers could be ambiguous. A sudden fall could indicate a crash, it could also indicate that the phone simply got dropped on the ground from a stationary position. If the phone really did get flung any distance, I wouldn't hold much hope for the device being in a usable state, given how easily the modern smartphone screens can be damaged.
I can see some benefit in the phone "phoning home" to some online system so others can track progress for welfare purposes. It'd need to be non-realtime though, just monitoring for an Internet connection, then making a one-shot post of a track log when a service is established.
Trying to detect a crash sounds like a good idea, until you consider false positives and their effects.
#42
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I've been seeing a lot of questions on various forums regarding apps for displaying their map coordinates to others.
1. report current address and gps coordinates at configurable intervals.
2. Shut off gps when not required by the app to save battery. Wake up gps automatically when needed.
10. ...?...
1. report current address and gps coordinates at configurable intervals.
2. Shut off gps when not required by the app to save battery. Wake up gps automatically when needed.
10. ...?...
The only existing app that I could find doing this was FollowMee. You can set it to wake up on any interval, turn on the GPS, take a fix and report to their servers, and then turn it back off. Getting it out of their servers requires paying them $2 or $3 / month. You can either have it sent to you as as attachment, or use a JSON interface to query it from one of your machines. So I have a machine that queries their servers every couple of hours, and updates a map served by my machine.
Not perfect by a long stretch, but I haven't found anything better yet, and I don't feel like learning a new language/environment/set-of-libraries just for this thing useful for me once a year when I go on my yearly tour.
#43
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I've been seeing a lot of questions on various forums regarding apps for displaying their map coordinates to others.
Instead of asking about what apps people use, I thought I'd put down what I'd like from an app and I thought maybe others would want to chime in too:
1. report current address and gps coordinates at configurable intervals.
2. Shut off gps when not required by the app to save battery. Wake up gps automatically when needed.
3. Easily add 'friends' to ongoing tour profile (NFC, wifi, texting number, etc).
4. Friends location update via SMS/TXT (configurable). (SMS messages are almost always available.)
5. Track friends on map
6. Permissions for location - coarse, fine, friends only, etc.
7. Sense crash
8. Use Google Places API to look up local services
9. Display services, friends, etc. on a map
10. ...?...
Instead of asking about what apps people use, I thought I'd put down what I'd like from an app and I thought maybe others would want to chime in too:
1. report current address and gps coordinates at configurable intervals.
2. Shut off gps when not required by the app to save battery. Wake up gps automatically when needed.
3. Easily add 'friends' to ongoing tour profile (NFC, wifi, texting number, etc).
4. Friends location update via SMS/TXT (configurable). (SMS messages are almost always available.)
5. Track friends on map
6. Permissions for location - coarse, fine, friends only, etc.
7. Sense crash
8. Use Google Places API to look up local services
9. Display services, friends, etc. on a map
10. ...?...
this must be an intergenerational thing. i am a sort-of retired engineer, in a way partly responsible for some of the stuff alluded to here. in no way, shape, form do i want to track, be tracked, be added, add, or whatever. we invented all that stuff to help your life, not rule it.
#44
multimodal commuter
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: NJ, NYC, LI
Posts: 19,808
Bikes: 1940s Fothergill, 1959 Allegro Special, 1963? Claud Butler Olympic Sprint, Lambert 'Clubman', 1974 Fuji "the Ace", 1976 Holdsworth 650b conversion rando bike, 1983 Trek 720 tourer, 1984 Counterpoint Opus II, 1993 Basso Gap, 2010 Downtube 8h, and...
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I'd like a gps-related app that shows me places where I could camp, with an emphasis on places where free, primitive, or "hobo" camping is permitted.
State forests, Walmart parking lots, Warmshowers hosts, campgrounds, whatever.
State forests, Walmart parking lots, Warmshowers hosts, campgrounds, whatever.
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