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Are Cat 1 racers considered pros?

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Are Cat 1 racers considered pros?

Old 08-03-20, 12:17 AM
  #176  
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late to the party but.. what's the answer?!

am I pro??
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Old 08-03-20, 06:39 AM
  #177  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Sorry, that simply makes zero sense. Nurture doesn't account for a 90 VO2 max, or a photographic memory, or being 7 feet tall, or being primarily fast twitch, or having near-neurotic drive. Or even high calves that help you run faster [I have fat low calves, personally. ] Child prodigies are not prodigies because of nurture. Mozart's upbringing was not super atypical, and yet he was memorizing 30+ minute pieces of heinously complicated music after hearing it just two times when he was a boy. And there's not another Mozart

Sure, it's a bit of both, but innate ability is the precursor to anything. Without it, all the hardest hard work and motivation in the world doesn't matter. If it did, anyone could will themselves to anything. And we can't.
Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
I'm not necessarily sure you entirely have the premise of the book. It's really that there are a wide variety of factors that influence greatness. Including, most importantly, relational factors. Kids who grow up in countries or programs that have high levels of any skill set have to elevate to the level to compete. Be it music, art, soccer, cycling, doctoring. Greatness inspires greatness. That isn't to say everyone is a blank slate, but if a skill isn't nurtured it has a much lower likelihood of going anywhere.
I think these two points agree. If you do not nurture an innate talent or genetic advantage, you will not develop into a world class champion. Doge keeps mentioning all these kids who probably could be great cyclists, but they aren't nurtured in it, so it never happens.

I mentioned Bonds earlier. He legitimately has a genetic advantage that his body processes information and makes the neurological connections faster than average. Without that benefit, he would not be able to hit a fastball like he did - regardless of the Clear stuff or how hard he worked.

I was not born a naturally gifted writer - I was always much better at math and science, but I've had a pretty successful career as a journalist and writer. That's a case of hard work overcoming lack of natural talent.


Originally Posted by mattm View Post
late to the party but.. what's the answer?!

am I pro??
You - definitely not.
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Old 08-03-20, 08:14 AM
  #178  
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Originally Posted by mattm View Post
late to the party but.. what's the answer?!

am I pro??
Depends.
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Old 08-03-20, 08:01 PM
  #179  
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Cat 1s are just the fastest slow people.
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Old 08-03-20, 10:26 PM
  #180  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Cat 1s are just the fastest slow people.
They are very likely faster than WT pros. Top juniors often race faster.
Pros just do it longer.
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Old 08-03-20, 10:39 PM
  #181  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
...Doge keeps mentioning all these kids who probably could be great cyclists, but they aren't nurtured in it, so it never happens....
Or, they don't want to, or the age is off. I learned this watching WT pros ride here and mention it. They are not all that fast, and as they get more pro - they slow down.
You can look at Sagan ITTs as a junior, or Froome (no you can't as I think he was a non player then) and see it was not so much about speed then for them. Search Sagan's Peace Race ITT times. Kittle was an ITT champ.
Being a good Euro pro is so much more than going fast in a short race. It is finding the right team and marketing and being able to deal with all the other stuff.

I have posted several times I think the WT races are way too long and favor the slow and steady over the fast and exciting. TdF average 24-25 mph is not as exciting [to me] as seeing (USA) riders averaging 28mph.
I think the sport is a bit warped in celebrating endurance over speed. I do see shorter and faster is increasing in popularity.
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Old 08-04-20, 05:21 AM
  #182  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
They are very likely faster than WT pros. Top juniors often race faster.
Pros just do it longer.
Doge, your perception of cat 1s and amateurs and even juniors is skewed by involvement with a very, very specific elite subgroup of riders.

And when I say skewed, I mean skewed liked the Grand Canyon.

I started racing in 2001 as a 17 year old and was a Cat 1 at 20. I've raced lots and lots and lots of people in the southeast and midwest. I can count on my hands the number of juniors/espoirs/cat 1s that were legitimately good enough to go world tour or did.

So when you say "they" as in Cat 1s, or "they" as in juniors, you are not talking about "them". Your'e talking about your extremely tiny sphere that isn't applicable to the rest of the country/world.

Last edited by rubiksoval; 08-04-20 at 05:29 AM.
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Old 08-04-20, 05:56 AM
  #183  
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The 'they could but don't want to' is a very weird thing as well. Being that the mind game of success in any endeavor is not an incidental part. I've known some wildly fast guys over the years. The kind that show up in a scene, migrate over from some other sport and completely dominate a scene. i.e. Harvard rower shows up in NYC cycling scene and is instantly a 1 and the fastest guy around. But he drops out two seasons later to do something else. He just didn't want to do it. So was he really that awesome, or did he lack the critical mental component. You can toss someone's massive vo2 max number or power up there, but if it isn't applied to race situations it doesn't really matter.
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Old 08-04-20, 07:54 AM
  #184  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Doge, your perception of cat 1s and amateurs and even juniors is skewed by involvement with a very, very specific elite subgroup of riders.

And when I say skewed, I mean skewed liked the Grand Canyon.

I started racing in 2001 as a 17 year old and was a Cat 1 at 20. I've raced lots and lots and lots of people in the southeast and midwest. I can count on my hands the number of juniors/espoirs/cat 1s that were legitimately good enough to go world tour or did.

So when you say "they" as in Cat 1s, or "they" as in juniors, you are not talking about "them". Your'e talking about your extremely tiny sphere that isn't applicable to the rest of the country/world.
I specifically said "Top Juniors" which would include those you mention I've been involved with. I've spent a lot of time at the side of the road in Europe and and a lot of the time in the car next to USA pros and Cat 1s and juniors. We get a lot of WT riders in the off season in SoCal. They can go and go and go, but my comment was on speed, not finishing 130 miles races day after day.

The TdF averages ~24mph most years. Very few WT races carry 28MPH average speeds over 100 miles, while "Top Juniors" may. Many USA Cat 1 crits are north of 30mph.
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Old 08-04-20, 09:17 AM
  #185  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I specifically said "Top Juniors" which would include those you mention I've been involved with. I've spent a lot of time at the side of the road in Europe and and a lot of the time in the car next to USA pros and Cat 1s and juniors. We get a lot of WT riders in the off season in SoCal. They can go and go and go, but my comment was on speed, not finishing 130 miles races day after day.

The TdF averages ~24mph most years. Very few WT races carry 28MPH average speeds over 100 miles, while "Top Juniors" may. Many USA Cat 1 crits are north of 30mph.
Like I said, you have an extremely small sphere. It's not representative of amateur or junior cycling in any way, shape, or form.

Your last paragraph is so wildly irrelevant I don't even know if it's worth responding to. Comparing 60-90 minute crits with 150+ mile WT races or Grand Tours is beyond pointless. No kidding that you can go faster when the distance is significantly shorter. Why even bring it up?
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Old 08-04-20, 11:33 AM
  #186  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
The 'they could but don't want to' is a very weird thing as well. Being that the mind game of success in any endeavor is not an incidental part. I've known some wildly fast guys over the years. The kind that show up in a scene, migrate over from some other sport and completely dominate a scene. i.e. Harvard rower shows up in NYC cycling scene and is instantly a 1 and the fastest guy around. But he drops out two seasons later to do something else. He just didn't want to do it. So was he really that awesome, or did he lack the critical mental component. You can toss someone's massive vo2 max number or power up there, but if it isn't applied to race situations it doesn't really matter.
Been there, done that, and too smart for the stupid sport?
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Old 08-04-20, 01:19 PM
  #187  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
. Comparing 60-90 minute crits with 150+ mile WT races or Grand Tours is beyond pointless. No kidding that you can go faster when the distance is significantly shorter. Why even bring it up?
Not to mention the TDF is not run as a TT. A lot of the day racers are riding tempo and not racing against each other. If nobody attacks, times will be slower.
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Old 08-04-20, 05:28 PM
  #188  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Like I said, you have an extremely small sphere. It's not representative of amateur or junior cycling in any way, shape, or form.

Your last paragraph is so wildly irrelevant I don't even know if it's worth responding to. Comparing 60-90 minute crits with 150+ mile WT races or Grand Tours is beyond pointless. No kidding that you can go faster when the distance is significantly shorter. Why even bring it up?
I bring it up as I do not think that the WT races can go faster than many of the short distance racers on a short course. Could a HS track miler beat an Olympic marathoner in a marathon - no. Could the world class Olympic marathoner beat the "top" (say state champ) HS milers - no.

So if you thought I was suggesting a junior could win any WT race of any length, I was not. WT riders are faster at WT races. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was suggesting otherwise.

But I do not think all WT pro can beat these "top" kids up the little fun rides/or races they do. Alberto and Andy did a video stating their max power was 900W. It was a max. Not what they did for a race. If you cannot hold 500W for 5 min, 1200W for 20sec you cannot keep up with some of the U23s now. Local 20 year olds post they hit 2,000W now.

Being a WT pro is about making money. It may be helping your teammate, saving for the next day, doing wheelies. I see no reason to believe they are faster than 17-22 year old males. It does not hold in swimming, running or any speed sport. So saying "top juniors" are faster is normal.

On your experience, adult Cat 1s are typically not feeders to pros. So what you saw and report aligns with that. Juniors and U23 are where pros come from, regardless of category. If you are a Cat I with hope of going pro - you are not racing Cat I at USA Nationals. You are in Europe, in Juniors, in U23. And if you are on an elite team and you can be pro.

I had a post I delete naming names. The team names change but if you are on LUX, Hot Tubes or prior Specialized there was likely a pro deal available for you. About half did at at least the USA pro license level. USA kids won the Peace Race and several other major Euro races in the last 5 years chose not to go pro.
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Old 08-04-20, 05:50 PM
  #189  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
I bring it up as I do not think that the WT races can go faster than many of the short distance racers on a short course. Could a HS track miler beat an Olympic marathoner in a marathon - no. Could the world class Olympic marathoner beat the "top" (say state champ) HS milers - no.

So if you thought I was suggesting a junior could win any WT race of any length, I was not. WT riders are faster at WT races. I'm sorry if it sounded like I was suggesting otherwise.
No, for the third time, I think you, for whatever reason, are unable to see past your own limited experiences, and I think you are posting 100% irrelevant things that have nothing to do with anything being discussed.

And I think you're trying to make ridiculous correlations. TDF versus a crit? Marathon versus a mile? It's bananas.
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Old 08-04-20, 05:51 PM
  #190  
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Given that guys like Cavendish would go out and win track races I'm not certain this is accurate. Also you're underestimating how quick a world class marathoner can turn miles. They do train that distance.

eliud kipchoge - 3:50.40

Pretty sure that's fastest than any high schooler
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Old 08-05-20, 11:26 AM
  #191  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
Given that guys like Cavendish would go out and win track races I'm not certain this is accurate. Also you're underestimating how quick a world class marathoner can turn miles. They do train that distance.

eliud kipchoge - 3:50.40

Pretty sure that's fastest than any high schooler
There are some fast pros. Cavendish, Viviani, Wiggins. Ganna rides for Ineos and is the current 4,000 meter record holder. There are a bunch of riders like this doing cyclocross too.
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Old 08-05-20, 12:53 PM
  #192  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval View Post
Like I said, you have an extremely small sphere. It's not representative of amateur or junior cycling in any way, shape, or form.

Your last paragraph is so wildly irrelevant I don't even know if it's worth responding to. Comparing 60-90 minute crits with 150+ mile WT races or Grand Tours is beyond pointless. No kidding that you can go faster when the distance is significantly shorter. Why even bring it up?
Yes, Crit races in the UK and South Africa I have watched or raced in can also hit over 30 mph average. Totally different to GT's or one day races that are longer and involve different tactics - often over far more challenging terrain.
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Old 08-05-20, 12:59 PM
  #193  
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I speak a dialect of Doge...maybe I can interpret.

Our US kids are talented, fast and have done well in Euro races. They are equal to and competitive with anything Europe has. In crits they are very fast and turn out some fast average speeds. Assuming they wanted to race professionally and if given the opportunity, they would do well in Euro WT races on pro teams.

Beyond that, my interpretive skills fail me.
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Old 08-05-20, 01:15 PM
  #194  
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post

Beyond that, my interpretive skills fail me.
Note to self: don't make self-deprecating jokes about being a Cat 1, even if I can do a crit faster than world tour riders can do the Tour de France.
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Old 08-05-20, 01:31 PM
  #195  
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Originally Posted by gsteinb View Post
Given that guys like Cavendish would go out and win track races I'm not certain this is accurate. Also you're underestimating how quick a world class marathoner can turn miles. They do train that distance.

eliud kipchoge - 3:50.40

Pretty sure that's fastest than any high schooler
True. Bradley Wiggins, Geraint Thomas - British Olympic Champion track cyclists who have both won the Tour de France. Not always about max watts either, more watts per kg. Heck, I'm pushing between 1200-1300 watts max when I sprint as a 65kg 51 year old, way past my prime and I was never Pro material at any time. The WT Pro's are very, very fast.
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Old 08-05-20, 02:21 PM
  #196  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
It is semi-easy to get a USA pro license. It is essentially the old Cat 1. You (low 20 somethings) can do it making $1,000 from cycling and having the right person ask for you.
In MTB many have a pro license and are still pretty much rec cyclists. The same is true for Cat 1. Points and numbers are not needed if the kid is talented. USAC will forget the "guidelines" and just give the grade.
There are a bunch of juniors that do not have time to go through the upgrade program in the USA as they are racing other places. They are upgraded on a phone call. Same for pro.
You need to be at that level, but the rule book and points are for the older riders.
So I made cat 2 in a season and a few races, forced upgrade actually as I was busy trying to help get my buddies points, I started in my late 20's so there was no "phone call". Just started winning / placing and collecting points and hitting every race I could for a year. I had life get in the way and abruptly stopped racing, but I felt like cat 1 was VERY doable points wise within another season. That was my goal, "top of the amateurs" category wise. Is USA Pro what I need to shoot for now that I'm riding again if that's the new cat 1? Sorry, been off the bike 10 years, I don't quite understand...
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Old 08-05-20, 02:42 PM
  #197  
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Originally Posted by AlgarveCycling View Post
True. Bradley Wiggins, Geraint Thomas - British Olympic Champion track cyclists who have both won the Tour de France. Not always about max watts either, more watts per kg. Heck, I'm pushing between 1200-1300 watts max when I sprint as a 65kg 51 year old, way past my prime and I was never Pro material at any time. The WT Pro's are very, very fast.
Pros are able to hold high wattage, which I feel is more important than peak watts.
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Old 08-05-20, 02:56 PM
  #198  
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
Pros are able to hold high wattage, which I feel is more important than peak watts.
Absolutely! 100% agree.
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Old 08-05-20, 04:22 PM
  #199  
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Originally Posted by colnago62 View Post
Pros are able to hold high wattage, which I feel is more important than peak watts.
Unless you're a sprinter, or a track sprinter. Chris Hoy has been said to exceed 2500 watts.
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Old 08-05-20, 05:22 PM
  #200  
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Originally Posted by procrit View Post
So I made cat 2 in a season and a few races, forced upgrade actually as I was busy trying to help get my buddies points, I started in my late 20's so there was no "phone call". Just started winning / placing and collecting points and hitting every race I could for a year. I had life get in the way and abruptly stopped racing, but I felt like cat 1 was VERY doable points wise within another season. That was my goal, "top of the amateurs" category wise. Is USA Pro what I need to shoot for now that I'm riding again if that's the new cat 1? Sorry, been off the bike 10 years, I don't quite understand...
Opinions vary, and "pro" mean different things in each discipline.
If you define pro as a category and stamp on your license - those are not all that hard to get - esp. in MTB where it seems about 30% are pros and I few don't have another job. The license costs more and I don't think USAC minds the trade. As they are not really making a living from their riding they are not doing it as a profession, and hence the suggestion that it was the new Cat 1.

This thread got a bit derailed about WT pros - folks that really make a living and raise families.
For Road Racing in the USA you can race just about anything as a Cat 1, but a few require you are on a team that got into that race.
You can poke around on USA Cycling and find USA pro teams and get links to UCI teams.
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