j.scud.22

Making plans for my first tour this spring-Erie Canal and maybe further. I have been riding a 1986 Miyata 1000 for the past year as my primary bike. I bought it at an estate sale and it supposedly has low miles.

My question (or dilemma) is this - I’ve kept the original wheels spinning true as I can but the rear hub cartridge bearings are in need of replacing, there are a few minor bent spokes and are 30 years old to boot. Thinking of just buying a new wheel set online with Sun CR 18 rims for about $150 I think...would I be pressing my luck by rehabbing the old wheels?

looking for any affirmation or opinions from more experienced tourers
thanks

Lascauxcaveman 

I not a loaded tourer, (even if I sometimes get loaded) but unless you suspect your hubs are dying, there no reason you can't rebuild the wheels with new spokes. It's probably more cost effective to get that new set of wheels, though, and you may end up with a more robust wheel that way too. How much would you enjoy the project of a rebuild? Or if you're not planning on doing it yourself, how much do you want to spend to get it done right? I would think $150 would be on the low end of the cost of spokes+labor to rebuild the ones you have. Throw in a set of hubs and you're pushing the price up more.

Salamandrine 

30 years old, bent spokes. Time to rebuild with new spokes and rims, or replace. It's not that hard to replace cartridge bearing usually. OTOH, it's probably easier and cheaper to buy the new wheelset than to buy new rims and spokes and bearings, even if you do the labor yourself. If you do get a new 150 wheelset, toss out any free external cam QR skewers that come with it. Use the old ones.

If by rehabbing you mean replacing the bearings and hoping for the best, I wouldn't recommend it.

PilotFishBob 

I retro-modded an '85 Shogun 2000 tourer to a 9speed setup and I used a wheelset with Sun CR 18s. They look good, ride well. Mine have 40 spokes each - a bit ridiculous but I got a great deal on them and they're pretty bombproof at least. I do light touring, someone who's more serious about it will have better info for you.

seypat

I would buy the new wheelset for the planned touring. Then gather the parts and rebuild the current wheelset gradually as you go. Rebuilding the wheelset is a project that would provide some prolonged fun/time consumption through the crappy wintertime. If you think of it as entertainment, not a bad bang for the bucks. Then you could sell one of the sets if you wanted.

The Golden Boy 

I agree.

If those are the stock Sanshin hubs- those are REALLY nice hubs. Everything on the Miyata 1000 was an upper level part. The bearings are effectively consumables- and may need replacing.

I'm sort of in the same boat- I have some truing problems with the front rim on my 1990 Miyata 1000LT...

northbend 

Rebuild the wheels and don’t take any shortcuts and make sure you rebuild it with loaded touring in mind (stouter spokes).
Your bike will handle much better under load.
I learned this from experience.
Washington to Colorado on a Vintage Bike
The last thing you want is a broken wheel in the middle of your bike tour.

Hoffs Bicycle Repair by NBend, on Flickr

rccardr 

CliffordK

I've bent spokes before. It really depends on the cause of the "bend", but they could well last a long time if you just leave them alone.

It may not be a bad idea to stock a couple of spare spokes just in case, but if you have the parts and tools, it isn't a big deal to replace a spoke on the roadside. DS rear spokes?

You should be able to replace the cartridge bearings easily enough.

Nonethless, it isn't a bad thing to upgrade components periodically, and I've gone through a few wheels in my life.

I'd be a bit concerned about the quality of 150 wheels & hubs.

I like good hubs. New rims may also be stronger than old ones.

SurferRosa

Maybe someone here can help you find some replacement cartridges online. So that issue will be somewhat out of the way. You can probably install them yourself, but you might need help removing the old ones.

It's easy enough to replace the bent/questionable spokes. Just take the few old ones to your LBS for the correct size. For me, spoke age is less of an issue than rim age. If you really want to rebuild the same rims, you need to be certain they're worth it. It's bad practice to spend all that time building wheels if the rims are part of the problem. You can buy a new pair of Sun rims for $70ish, shipped, and they'll be much easier to build.

Dfrost 

j.scud.22

CliffordK

I was late jumping on the cassette bandwagon.

But, it is hard to look back. Ok, so I'm a masher, and I like my 11T, although I'm not hitting as frequently as I had earlier.

But, there may be reasons to space the rear-end to 130mm (if it isn't already), and to get a good cassette rear wheel. Friction/Retro-Friction/& micro rachetting shifters are easy to change gearing with. 7-speed is still moderately supported with cassettes.

But, by going to a cassette, it allows a wide range of 9/10/or even 11 speed cassettes.

Ok, easy to get sucked down that rabbit hole.

j.scud.22

Salamandrine 

It is my professional opinion that it is never worth it to salvage old rims. They are only slightly less disposable than tires. If you're going to the trouble to rebuild the wheels, best to use new spokes and new rims, always. FWIW I've built hundreds of wheels.

To +1 what was said above, new spokes have gotten much better. I'd strongly recommend modern 14/15 double butted spokes if you decide on a rebuild. The price is painful but they are much less likely to break. Breaking spokes used to be a pretty typical thing that happened, but it's rare now. It's a PITA to have it happen on a tour. BITD I'd carry a few spokes and a freewheel tool, assuming I'd be able to ride as far a garage to borrow a big wrench. With 36 or 40 spokes, that was possible.

WRT the cheapo velomine and wheelmaster wheelsets. Those cheap hubs are shockingly good, especially since they are essentially free, since the rims and spokes if purchased separately would cost almost as much as the completed wheels. They are not as nice as the old Gyromasters, but less far off than you'd think, and for sure are better than vintage cheap hubs. They are certainly good enough for a one time tour. For a serious touring machine though, I'd consider converting to either Phil type fat axle hubs or to a cassette hubs, to preclude axle bending/breaking issues.

Yeah, pretty sure it's 126 now. Easy path is to keep it that way. Respacing is not that difficult though. Dropouts etc will need to be realigned afterwards. Helpful to have the tools.

j.scud.22

vintagerando

@northbend
I love that BG you have. I am keeping my eyes peeled for one in my local market.

SurferRosa

The 40h rear sort of changes things if it were me, because rim choices will be narrowed and I'm guessing more expensive.

This (and your other posts) tell me the current rims are probably fine. You don't complain of a hop in a rim, poor brake surface, cracks, etc.

What I would do is a "major true." Spray eight nipples with a light aerosol oil. Detune each, and retune each. Then move on to the next eight, going all the way around. If you come across a problem nipple or (bent) spoke, mark it so you can replace it later right before you give each wheel a really good true. You can use your upside down frame to true 'em up.

I wouldn't on a loaded tourer, because you usually have to add spacers to the drive side, causing a tiny bit more stress on the axle. Maybe just find a more appropriate 6-speed for your needs, like a 30t if your derailleur can handle it.

CliffordK

You can run 9 (and I presume 10) speed on 126mm. However, I believe that it may require a custom build with an off-center or asymmetric rim.

Velocity makes "OC" rims. DT makes "asymmetric" rims. Probably a few other brands too.

But, a good touring bike would be strongest with at least 130mm dropouts, if not 135 mm.

I believe you can still buy 7-speed cassette hubs from Shimano, although the quality is pretty marginal on some. Actually, I think the races and hub bodies are good, but the cones aren't, and the seals are old technology.

One could, probably build a 7-speed hub to Shimano 5700/6700 quality if one wished.

Cougrrcj

Miyata 1000s (at least early '90s) had a 40-spoke rear wheel, as you've learned. By '86, the stock spokes were already stainless. Rebuild those wheels if you can! I'm building up a wheelset for my touring bike - '84 Univega Gran Tourismo - that was built by Miyata and is roughly equivalent to a Miyata 610. I'm going all out with old-school Phil Wood hubs, stainless spokes, and a pair of better-quality box-section touring rims.

New $150 wheels are generally cheap (using Formula/Origin8 hubs) and rims that are generally NOT up to the rigors of loaded touring. They're OK for a around-town bike, or even a flipper. I bought a cheap wheelset with Sun M13II rims for my Univega Viva Sport that I use for a commuter.

canklecat

Ditto, those Wheelmaster readymade wheels. Very good for the money, especially if you buy direct.

A few years ago after I'd resumed cycling I needed a new wheel pronto on my errand bike and didn't have the tools or time to rebuild the old wheel. The old rear wheel popped a couple of spokes hauling groceries and I figured the rest would start going soon. It was just a cheap single wall rim and became wobbly just from one or two popped spokes. Since I routinely hauled 30-50 lbs of stuff on the rear rack I wanted a sturdier wheel as affordably as possible.

The LBS a mile from me ordered a Wheelmaster wheel from the nearby warehouse (I think they're just south of Fort Worth). It's a sturdy double wall Zac 19 rim (popular budget rims for mountain bikes), 36 massive aluminum spokes (measures 0.10", I'm not sure what gauge that is, maybe 10-12?), on a generic loose bearing hub with Wheelmaster's label.

There was some pinging on the first few rides as the spokes settled in. I assumed it was a machine built wheel with little or no human attention so I figured I'd need a spoke tool soon to true the wheel after the pinging stopped. But here I am three years later and the rim just barely wobbles. So I haven't bothered to do anything with it.

I figured it would be too heavy and sluggish for my fun hybrid but I was wrong. Last spring I was hit by a car while riding my Univega hybrid. Warped and scraped up the original rims (also cheap single wall, Araya PX-45 I think). I'd already had trouble keeping those rims trued after every ride on gravel or rough pavement so I didn't miss those rims, although I plan to salvage the Shimano Exage hubs.

Anyway, I need to borrow the Wheelmaster wheel off my errand bike for a few weeks to use on the Univega. I just swapped from the heavy 1,100 gram Michelin Protek Cross Max tires I use on the errand bike to the 400g Continental Speed Rides on the Univega. Felt good as new. Other than minor derailleur tweaks to accommodate the 13-25 7-speed freewheel vs the 13-28 7-speed cassette it rode just fine.

Since then I've repaired the Univega and put on 32 spoke Alex S500 rims on generic loose bearing hubs and lighter gauge spokes. Can't say it rides any better than with the Wheelmaster wheel. Only difference is I could install 700x23 tires if I wanted to, but I prefer 700x32 or wider.

I'm not sure there's that much difference between 32 and 36 spoke wheels for light touring, but if I was doing serious touring (or grocery hauling, as I do on my errand bike) and the budget was tight, I'd consider Wheelmaster readymade wheels again. If I ordered directly from the Warehouse I think a set of the wheels I bought would cost about $120. Possibly the same price through Amazon, which has some of the Wheelmaster stock. But Wheelmaster specs vary according to the available rims. And they have a massive catalog so it's a chore to wade through it all to find what you want.

canklecat

BTW, for truing an old wheel, I've had good results using Boeshield T9 liquid rather than aerosol oils. It penetrates remarkably quickly. It freed up some old corroded spoke nipples quickly and I was able to true the rim without waiting overnight for the oil to penetrate and loosen up the rust and corrosion.

Boeshield T9 comes in liquid and aerosol but I prefer the liquid. I use a screw-on needle dropper to dispense as little as possible for some applications. It has almost no odor so other folks won't complain if you're working indoors. And the light carrier evaporates overnight leaving only a thin waxy film -- no oily residue.

Boeshield is also great for refreshing old cables and housings if you don't have time or money to replace them. It wicks quickly down the full length of the cable and improves the feel of brakes and shifters. It just leaves a waxy film so it won't attract more debris or get gummy.

I had put off properly truing the original Araya CTL-370 rims on my '89 Centurion Ironman because I'd rather ride than putter. But it rained a lot recently so I had time. I had been doing some farm-rigged truing of the rear with the tire on the rim but that usually doesn't hold. Mostly it just twisted the jammed spokes and they'd ping during rides and go untrue again. So a few days ago I did it properly with the tire and rim tape removed. Finally cleared up a pesky little hop in the rim that had bothered me for a year. Now I need to do the same for the front wheel. It wasn't out of true until very recently when I blasted across some very rough rural pavement. Now there's just a minor wobble but enough to bother me.

PizzaPi4Me

Personally, without looking at thet old ones, ld go for the new wheels. I'm running the same rim on my polo bike, and they're super beefy.

mstateglfr 

I'm not sure how anyone can claim the hubs on ypur potential wheelset arent up for loaded touring without knowing the hub details.
with that said, if its a freewheel hub it will inherently be weaker than a cassette hub.

there is 0 downside to getting a 130 rear hub. Simply spreading the stays when inserting the wheel has been done for 3 decades now without issue. Sure coldsetting the frame and realigning the dropouts is best, but simply spreading the stays has given me perfect shifting on every bike I've had with 9sp and 11sp shifting.

as already mentioned, double butted spokes are lighter and 'better' than stout spokes as they can flex without as high of a potential to fatigue thru use due to the butted spokes flexing under load better.

a properly tensioned 36h mid depth(26-28mm) rim with butted spokes will hold you plus the kitchen sink for years to come and thousands of miles without issue.
Formula/origin8 hubs can absolutely last without incident when they are part of a well built wheel.

in general, $150 wheelsets with PG spokes and cr18 rims will be machine built and not stress relieved. Often times they will be true, but at the expense of inconsistent spoke tension. Again, this is all in general. You may get a set that is true and has good tension. If your wheels are inconsistently tensioned, take them to a shop and ask them to detension the spokes and start over. The wheels will then be consistent and more reliable.

Also, a mid depth modern rim is significantly stronger than an 80s box rim due to shape. Some things are just better to update.

dddd

By the 1980's, the stainless spokes coming stock on good Japanese bikes were very good in my experience. Much, much better than in the 70's.

The crucial thing here is whether the spokes have uniform same-side tensions and overall sufficient tension.
If the wheels have suffered no traumas, they might still be fine, though I would want to verify the driveside tension and uniformity of tension.

I've found even the most basic Shimano freehubs to have long-lasting bearings and quite-decent shielding mechanisms.
36h should be very strong if a double-walled touring rim is used.