southpawboston

I really don't need another road bike, or at least that's what my wife and friends tell me. I have an opportunity to pick up a not quite C&V bike, but classic inspired and with pretty nice geometry and components: a 2006 Kogswell model P 62cm frame, built up with an entire NOS Suntour Superbe Pro group. For those of you who don't know Kogswell, it was a small operation started in 2001 and now defunct. Along the lines of Rivendell, they designed and imported nice production frames made in Taiwan. The model P is a sport tourer made with Pacenti lugs and finished in British racing green with a contrasting white head tube. Only 150 were made. The owner told me he spent a year on eBay acquiring the bits and pieces of the entire NOS Superbe Pro group just for this build.

I don't know if I should take the plunge. It would be a good chunk of change, and would probably mean getting rid of one of my existing road bikes, possibly the Raleigh Comp GS, which is a tad small for me. But it might also be a great deal, and the size and geometry are right on. so I pose the question here of should I should bite.

A little bit of history into this deal: I found this bike on eBay over a year ago as a completed auction that never met the reserve of $750. I contacted the seller, who offered to sell me the bike off-bay for the amount of the reserve. We shot a few emails back and forth, and then the seller went AWOL-- never heard back until a few weeks later. He said he was going through some rough times and didn't have the time to dismantle the bike and ship it, and he didn't know when he would have the time. So I dropped it.

Fast forward a year. I'm cleaning out my inbox, and I stumble upon the old emails from this deal that never happened. Just for kicks, I contact the guy and ask if he still has the bike. He replies that he does, and we can still do the deal if I want, and that coincidentally, he had been thinking of reposting it on eBay. This is beginning to seem a little suspect to me now... why would he wait a whole year to sell if he needs to get rid of it? He also mentioned that he's been riding the bike several times a week, so why would he WANT to sell it if he's riding it regularly and doesn't NEED to get rid of it?

Anyway, this is what's being offered:

Kogswell p-62 frame
nitto 65 crystal fellow seat post
Suntour Superbe 172.5 Pro cranks,
Suntour Superbe Pro front and rear derailliers
suntour Superbe Pro Hubs
Mavic MA3 Rims
Suntour Superbe Pro brakes and brake levers + NOS Suntour Superbe Pro original pads and Koolstop Black pads installed.
Nitto 90mm Technomic stem
Nitto Grand randonneur bars 44cm
Baggins bags front and rear
Honjo fenders hammered finish
Brooks Pro saddle
Suntour Superbe Pro pedals and extra NOS cages
Panaracer Pasela Tour Guard tires 700 x 32c
Suntour headset
Suntour quick releases front and rear
Suntour bottom bracket
Suntour bar shifters

Extras - Parts Included

NOS - Nitto Dynamic 70mm stem
Nitto 120mm Dymanic stem
Nitto 120mm Dynamic II
SR forged stem 110mm
1 set of Avoset 700 x 32c tires decent shape

Here's a pic of the bike:

drive side.jpg

That pic was from last year, but he says it looks the same now. He sent me a bunch of pics, and they all look great). He claims the frame is fine, no crashes, not bent, no dents and the comps are great. The only thing different since last year is that the Suntour Superbe Pro gum hoods are shot (and that they're hard to find).

If the frame ends up being a dud, I should be able to part it all out and recoup my costs-- provided everything is as he says.

Should I take the plunge? Or are there too many red flags here? If so, what do you think they are?

nlerner

The Model Ps I've seen on the interwebs look like very nice bikes (P = Pacenti lugs?). From that pic, it looks like the geometry would be similar to your Comp GS. Matthew Grimm did the P before he drank the low-trail koolaid and came out with the P/R.

Neal

ScottRyder 

Keep in mind, if I understand this right .. the original owner built it up with NOS Superbe Pro. Unfortunately it's no longer NOS. So that has to be figured into the equation of value , yes?

Scott

southpawboston

Correct, similar geometry and high trail like the GS, but proportionally longer seat and top tubes. Also slightly more slack angles (73 parallel versus 74 parallel). I've dialed in the GS as best I can, and it works, but with the really short wheelbase, fenders and my size 13 shoes, the toe overlap is significant.

Yep-- it wasn't NOS when it was up for auction last year either, only when he built it up. It now has an additional year of use clocked on it.

Bianchigirll 

does this have Spacely Sprockets on the FW?



beautiful bike.

southpawboston

Ha! Sourcing a Spacely sprocket instead of a Kogswell cog would be a sin!

JunkYardBike

I'd say if the build is close or exactly what you want, I think it's a pretty good deal. Could you build this for $750? Probably not. And I think you're right that you'd be able to recoup your investment if you part it out, or close to it.

That said, I recently picked up a 650B P/R frame. It's tig welded, and likely not up to par with the P frames, but boy is it sloppy. Ugly welds, stamped dropouts, absolutely zero finish work. If that's important to you, ask the seller to send macro photos of frame details if he hasn't already. That said, I paid 300+ shipped for my frame. However, it's difficult to find budget 650B lightweight frames, so I consider my buy a relative bargain. Also, I've had it on a few shakedown runs and I like the feel so far. I didn't buy it to be pretty, though, I bought it for utility.

Chris W.

If it feels like a safe deal, I would say DO IT!!! I have always been fond of the lugged Kogswell framesets.

Chris

fender1

+1. Sell what you don't love and give this a try.These frames have always gotten good reviews. I almost had the last one from Matthew @ Kogswell (in my size) but he kept it for himself. I spoke with him a number of times on the phone and it was sad to hear the pressure of running a business drive the fun out of bikes for him, at least that was my impression when I spoke with him.

southpawboston

I had heard that some of the later P/R production runs had some issues, including frames shipped with poor alignments that just never tracked straight. According to the discussions in the interwebs, the P model didn't suffer any of these QC issues. However, the paint quality has been described as sub-par.

I think I'll ask for some more shots and also ask for a better idea of how many miles he's put on this bike. I think if I go for this bike, the Raleigh will get sold.

tugrul

The pictured stem is 90mm?

southpawboston

Yeah, I wondered about that too. Time for a few questions to the seller...

BentLink

I'd be careful that the frame isn't bent...seller does seem kind of oddly motivated. Otherwise, do it...It's green!

jptwins

I think it's definitely correct to be a bit suspicious if he says he wants to sell it, and yet was happily riding it for the last year. I'd go with getting more macro shots and see how you feel. Does the buying-out-of-eBay's security make you concerned at all? I did something similar recently with a 0-bid item that had closed and contacted the seller. It all ended well, but i was concerned until I actually had the package in my possession.

as for the N+1 argument. I personally feel there is a limit to what i want to own, and have successfully inoculated myself again N+1itis (mainly because my wife is a successful vaccine against it, though i am willing to trade in a bike...). But if you are building the bikes to ride, it makes sense to get rid of the raleigh (though it is freakin' gorgeous!). if you feel it's too small, you will no doubt get some good money for it, and could most likely easily recoup the kogswell cost, right? and for $750 (plus shipping or including shipping?), you'll be getting a very high value set of parts and accessories!

looking forward to hearing what happens! and a 62 is your size? i thought the shogun was a 63? kogswell made a 65 at one time, but i doubt i'll ever find one...

Zaphod Beeblebrox 

looks to me like someone already had all the fun of building it up the way they wanted.

We've all seen your handiwork.....I think you can build better yourself.

southpawboston

Ha, thanks. Yeah, I'm starting to cool down with regard to this deal, and thinking I'll pass. I should just start out with a frameset and then figure out how to build it up. That's what I did with my last two bikes, and interestingly, those are the two I enjoy the most.

62-63 is optimal, with top tube + stem length of 67cm. This bike would be a good fit.