Beginner Commuting In a Big City
02-28-15, 03:37 PM
#26
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,969
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,532 Times
in
1,043 Posts
02-28-15, 04:51 PM
#27
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
IMO, the single most important rule when it comes to urban commuting is to get the @#$% away from motorists at intersections. If the coast is clear the safest thing to do is to always run the light or traffic signal.
When it comes to urban cycling outside of a well-designed dedicated bike facility the mantras of "be predictable" and "follow the rules of the road" are can be very bad advice.
Last edited by spare_wheel; 02-28-15 at 05:07 PM.
02-28-15, 05:06 PM
#28
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
They ride a sensible METAL city bike with fenders, IGH, dynamo, integrated lights, kickstand, chaincase, brooks leather saddle, steel front and/or rear rack/basket, canvas or leather bags, and leather grips. And they never, ever, ever wear anything other than normal clothes. Bonus points for very tight jeans, heels, pencil skirts, merino/smart wool/DIY anything, wool cycling britches, flowery dresses, plaid/wool hats/fedoras/caps, and NO HELMETS!
02-28-15, 05:41 PM
#29
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 8,721
Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4227 Post(s)
Liked 2,488 Times
in
1,286 Posts
02-28-15, 05:45 PM
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: NYC
Posts: 526
Bikes: Too many to list
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
They ride a sensible METAL city bike with fenders, IGH, dynamo, integrated lights, kickstand, chaincase, brooks leather saddle, steel front and/or rear rack/basket, canvas or leather bags, and leather grips. And they never, ever, ever wear anything other than normal clothes. Bonus points for very tight jeans, heels, pencil skirts, merino/smart wool/DIY anything, wool cycling britches, flowery dresses, plaid/wool hats/fedoras/caps, and NO HELMETS!
03-01-15, 10:34 AM
#31
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
OP says he is a beginner in a big city, who doesn't drive. For a beginner who has no traffic experience even driving, it will be difficult to judge things. Until he has quite a bit of experience. Learning from the start, we're better off following all of the traffic rules, first gaining the confidence and competence of traffic.
03-01-15, 11:41 AM
#32
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,969
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,532 Times
in
1,043 Posts
"Can be" is the right choice of words IMO. It depends on the situation: the particular intersection, the traffic, the rider and his bike.
OP says he is a beginner in a big city, who doesn't drive. For a beginner who has no traffic experience even driving, it will be difficult to judge things. Until he has quite a bit of experience. Learning from the start, we're better off following all of the traffic rules, first gaining the confidence and competence of traffic.
OP says he is a beginner in a big city, who doesn't drive. For a beginner who has no traffic experience even driving, it will be difficult to judge things. Until he has quite a bit of experience. Learning from the start, we're better off following all of the traffic rules, first gaining the confidence and competence of traffic.
The OP, and any other non enthusiast/non bike club participant, may do better by taking bicycling advice from Vehicular Cycling dogmatist John Forester (and disciples such as John Allen) or from self appointed BF Wizards of the Conventional Wisdom about Serious Cycling™ with many grains of salt.
Even better to save such stuff for a later period when experience in their own cycling environment (the best teacher) will tell them just how safe and practical/impractical "expert" advice may be.
03-01-15, 03:08 PM
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Chicago, IL
Posts: 437
Bikes: Surly Steamroller FG, Trek 800 SS MTB, Omega Tandem Sport
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times
in
2 Posts
OP - do you know anyone at your work who commutes? I would see about learning from those around you, perhaps even meeting up for a weekend test ride and try out your route. I've met up with new commuters and ridden in with them for their first commute. It is a good way to get someone started.
03-02-15, 09:53 AM
#34
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
Following traffic rules is one thing; following the advice of self appointed BF experts is another.
The OP, and any other non enthusiast/non bike club participant, may do better by taking bicycling advice from Vehicular Cycling dogmatist John Forester (and disciples such as John Allen) or from self appointed BF Wizards of the Conventional Wisdom about Serious Cycling™ with many grains of salt.
Even better to save such stuff for a later period when experience in their own cycling environment (the best teacher) will tell them just how safe and practical/impractical "expert" advice may be.
The OP, and any other non enthusiast/non bike club participant, may do better by taking bicycling advice from Vehicular Cycling dogmatist John Forester (and disciples such as John Allen) or from self appointed BF Wizards of the Conventional Wisdom about Serious Cycling™ with many grains of salt.
Even better to save such stuff for a later period when experience in their own cycling environment (the best teacher) will tell them just how safe and practical/impractical "expert" advice may be.
I would expect it to be intimidating and probably dangerous for an inexperienced cyclist to emulate Forester (Vehicular Cycling, dogmatically) especially if he's not intimately familiar with how people react when driving. But all we really have to do is keep an eye on them, be cautious and just do it. I advised OP to follow all of the traffic rules in part to make sure that the cyclist actually knows them. It's kind of fundamental in anticipating what drivers are likely to do.
03-02-15, 10:25 AM
#35
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
"Can be" is the right choice of words IMO. It depends on the situation: the particular intersection, the traffic, the rider and his bike.
OP says he is a beginner in a big city, who doesn't drive. For a beginner who has no traffic experience even driving, it will be difficult to judge things. Until he has quite a bit of experience. Learning from the start, we're better off following all of the traffic rules, first gaining the confidence and competence of traffic.
OP says he is a beginner in a big city, who doesn't drive. For a beginner who has no traffic experience even driving, it will be difficult to judge things. Until he has quite a bit of experience. Learning from the start, we're better off following all of the traffic rules, first gaining the confidence and competence of traffic.
As a beginner the OP probably does not realize that "vehicular cycling" can be a very rigid ideologoy. Instead of reading John Allen's web page or "Effective cycling" I would recommend a source that gives a more balanced point of view. For example, the Art of Cycling by Robert Hurst does a good job of describing different "approaches" to urban cycling and recommends that cyclists pick among these approaches in a manner that fits their risk-profile and experience.
https://www.amazon.com/Art-Cycling-Bi.../dp/0762743166
Another resource that does not have a rigid "vehicular cycling" ideology is:
Ride Better Tips | League of American Bicyclists
Smart Cycling Tips | League of American Bicyclists
03-02-15, 11:03 AM
#36
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,384
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 800 Post(s)
Liked 218 Times
in
171 Posts
You may know from reading many of my earlier posts, this is exactly how I did it 7 years ago. No experience, no studying, no experts, I just started doing it and learned as I went. I can't say that it's the best way to go about it but I can say that it's feasible and not nearly so difficult and dangerous as it may appear. In the past 5 years that I've logged daily, I have commuted by bike a bit over 1,000 workdays so I think I can reasonably say it's been successful.
My experience is that people drive differently in every city and treat cyclists very differently. The best advice often comes from cyclists that live the closest to you (maybe JPHamilton [sic] in this case). The exception here would also be Jim from Boston--anyone that can successfully commute around Boston has my full respect and probably knows how to deal with about every intersection imaginable!
…I had promised myself as I did last year, that I would not take the participants out onto the streets of Boston, since I live downtown. ..
As mentioned, Dick had come with a low-riding recumbent trike, from Fairborn, Ohio, small, probably rural town I imagined, and now at the end of the Path we were facing the busy mean streets of downtown Boston at rush hour. I myself had never ridden most of that on-street route to the Navy Yard, but I knew we could take sidewalks. Dick, as he was during the entire weekend, said “Fine, you lead the way.”
So we made our way, mostly on crowded sidewalks with some hazardous street crossings. Eventually I had to give up and go onto the streets. Dick had no problems with street riding, and actually seemed to prefer it. Later on he said it’s really no problem, and has cycled streets around the world such as Munich and London, so I realized, “What’s Boston?”
[The next day] Finally he revealed that he is a certified Cycling Instructor by the League of American Cyclists and taught safe, including urban, cycling to adults and children. As a decades-long, year-round urban cyclist, I proudly told him I learned by experience, and he replied, “It shows. You made some mistakes out there.”
…
As mentioned, Dick had come with a low-riding recumbent trike, from Fairborn, Ohio, small, probably rural town I imagined, and now at the end of the Path we were facing the busy mean streets of downtown Boston at rush hour. I myself had never ridden most of that on-street route to the Navy Yard, but I knew we could take sidewalks. Dick, as he was during the entire weekend, said “Fine, you lead the way.”
So we made our way, mostly on crowded sidewalks with some hazardous street crossings. Eventually I had to give up and go onto the streets. Dick had no problems with street riding, and actually seemed to prefer it. Later on he said it’s really no problem, and has cycled streets around the world such as Munich and London, so I realized, “What’s Boston?”
[The next day] Finally he revealed that he is a certified Cycling Instructor by the League of American Cyclists and taught safe, including urban, cycling to adults and children. As a decades-long, year-round urban cyclist, I proudly told him I learned by experience, and he replied, “It shows. You made some mistakes out there.”
…
03-02-15, 11:24 AM
#37
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,384
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 800 Post(s)
Liked 218 Times
in
171 Posts
I strongly disagree. The John Allen's of the world would have use line up, wait, and breathe exhaust at intersections. Not only is this damaging to a cyclist's health but it maximizes contact with the sizable minority of distracted, and clueless drivers in the precise space where cyclists are most at risk.
IMO, the single most important rule when it comes to urban commuting is to get the @#$% away from motorists at intersections. If the coast is clear the safest thing to do is to always run the light or traffic signal.
IMO, the single most important rule when it comes to urban commuting is to get the @#$% away from motorists at intersections. If the coast is clear the safest thing to do is to always run the light or traffic signal.
…OP says he is a beginner in a big city, who doesn't drive. For a beginner who has no traffic experience even driving, it will be difficult to judge things. Until he has quite a bit of experience. Learning from the start, we're better off following all of the traffic rules, first gaining the confidence and competence of traffic.
…One public reflection of those motorists’ attitudes is occasionally expressed on a talk radio show here in Boston, The Howie Carr Show, with anti-cycling rants as the topic. I once called in with this reply about filtering and (carefully) running red lights.
IMO, just as when the behemoth dinosaurs were co-existing with little furry mammals, they may have been not necessarily predators and prey, but I’m sure a survival strategy for the mammals was to stay away from the dinos just to avoid getting trampled. So too, my survival sense tells me, don’t congregate with cars when they jam up at intersections; and look who won out by following the Law of Survival.
Fortunately my rides are at early hours on lightly-traveled residential, light commercial and exurban roads, and anyways, Boston drivers are notorious for their own “trangressions.”
IMO, just as when the behemoth dinosaurs were co-existing with little furry mammals, they may have been not necessarily predators and prey, but I’m sure a survival strategy for the mammals was to stay away from the dinos just to avoid getting trampled. So too, my survival sense tells me, don’t congregate with cars when they jam up at intersections; and look who won out by following the Law of Survival.
Fortunately my rides are at early hours on lightly-traveled residential, light commercial and exurban roads, and anyways, Boston drivers are notorious for their own “trangressions.”
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 03-02-15 at 11:58 AM.
03-02-15, 12:14 PM
#38
Been Around Awhile
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Burlington Iowa
Posts: 29,969
Bikes: Vaterland and Ragazzi
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 12 Post(s)
Liked 1,532 Times
in
1,043 Posts
You may know from reading many of my earlier posts, this is exactly how I did it 7 years ago. No experience, no studying, no experts, I just started doing it and learned as I went. I can't say that it's the best way to go about it but I can say that it's feasible and not nearly so difficult and dangerous as it may appear. In the past 5 years that I've logged daily, I have commuted by bike a bit over 1,000 workdays so I think I can reasonably say it's been successful.
I would expect it to be intimidating and probably dangerous for an inexperienced cyclist to emulate Forester (Vehicular Cycling, dogmatically) especially if he's not intimately familiar with how people react when driving. But all we really have to do is keep an eye on them, be cautious and just do it. I advised OP to follow all of the traffic rules in part to make sure that the cyclist actually knows them. It's kind of fundamental in anticipating what drivers are likely to do.
I would expect it to be intimidating and probably dangerous for an inexperienced cyclist to emulate Forester (Vehicular Cycling, dogmatically) especially if he's not intimately familiar with how people react when driving. But all we really have to do is keep an eye on them, be cautious and just do it. I advised OP to follow all of the traffic rules in part to make sure that the cyclist actually knows them. It's kind of fundamental in anticipating what drivers are likely to do.
You are correct that it would behoove the OP to learn the traffic rules that apply to all users of the streets for his own safety The advice previously given that the OP should consider getting a driver's license would be a step in that direction as well as likely be useful in his future endeavors.
03-02-15, 12:26 PM
#39
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
Millions of people worldwide, like you, have successfully figured out how to safely ride a bicycle without the benefit of lessons from experts (Certified, self appointed, or otherwise). Their riding may not pass the arbitrary "test/standards" established by some smug self appointed experts but it serves these bicyclists quite well.
03-02-15, 12:45 PM
#40
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: NYC
Posts: 526
Bikes: Too many to list
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Funny, but I can't seem to find the post in this thread where someone proclaim to be an expert and that his/her advice supersedes everything else.
Experience can be a very good teacher, but it can also be a very expensive teacher. While I'm always the first to advocate learning by doing, one has to realize that this method often leads to costly mistakes that could have been easily avoided had the person sought advice from "self-appointed experts". Advice can vary depending on the environment, as drivers in some cities may be more receptive to cyclocommuting than others. There is nothing wrong with BF posters sharing their own experiences and bits of advice in response to the OP's question, but hopefully the OP realizes that what works for some people may not work for others. Through trial and error, in addition to incorporating advice for more experienced riders, one can work out a system that suits their needs far more quickly than simply relying on just learning by doing. I found the advice, stories and testimonials of the smug self appointed experts here on BF to be absolutely invaluable in helping me become a safe commuter and I'm sure they can be helpful to the OP as well.
Hopefully, the OP will be wise enough to ignore the antagonistic rants in this thread and find the bits of info that can aid him/her in becoming a safe commuter.
Experience can be a very good teacher, but it can also be a very expensive teacher. While I'm always the first to advocate learning by doing, one has to realize that this method often leads to costly mistakes that could have been easily avoided had the person sought advice from "self-appointed experts". Advice can vary depending on the environment, as drivers in some cities may be more receptive to cyclocommuting than others. There is nothing wrong with BF posters sharing their own experiences and bits of advice in response to the OP's question, but hopefully the OP realizes that what works for some people may not work for others. Through trial and error, in addition to incorporating advice for more experienced riders, one can work out a system that suits their needs far more quickly than simply relying on just learning by doing. I found the advice, stories and testimonials of the smug self appointed experts here on BF to be absolutely invaluable in helping me become a safe commuter and I'm sure they can be helpful to the OP as well.
Hopefully, the OP will be wise enough to ignore the antagonistic rants in this thread and find the bits of info that can aid him/her in becoming a safe commuter.
03-02-15, 01:39 PM
#41
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 7,384
Mentioned: 49 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 800 Post(s)
Liked 218 Times
in
171 Posts
…
Last edited by Jim from Boston; 03-02-15 at 01:43 PM.
03-02-15, 02:23 PM
#42
Junior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2015
Posts: 9
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Nice argument you guys are having.
I can get one of these for half the price. Thoughts?
Halfords | Carrera Virtuoso Road Bike 2015
I can get one of these for half the price. Thoughts?
Halfords | Carrera Virtuoso Road Bike 2015
03-02-15, 03:50 PM
#43
Registered User
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: NA
Posts: 4,267
Bikes: NA
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times
in
7 Posts
Nice argument you guys are having.
I can get one of these for half the price. Thoughts?
Halfords | Carrera Virtuoso Road Bike 2015
I can get one of these for half the price. Thoughts?
Halfords | Carrera Virtuoso Road Bike 2015
03-02-15, 05:01 PM
#44
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 194
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Lots of good stuff in this thread, other than the arguments. Other than the obvious "rule following" type advice, I would also say that there are three big general principles to help increase the safety of a newbie to city streets:
1) Don't ride really fast. Lots will disagree with that, but when you're just getting your bearings, going slowly gives you plenty of time to see your environment, and stop if you encounter an obstacle (i.e., doors opening, cars cutting you off, etc.)
2) Be predictable. This can mean a lot of different things, but don't go out of your way to confuse drivers. Ride in a straight line, obey traffic signals (I think this is generally a good idea, until they allow for cyclists to legally treat them as yield signs), go the right way down a street, etc.
3) Be polite. Don't escalate situations more than necessary - you're vulnerable, and some drivers get crazy road rage. That might not always feel satisfying, but I think it's generally a safe approach. I try to remember that at the end of the day, I want to get home to my family in one piece, so no need to be too risky about it.
Ok, fine - #4 Lights! Lots of them!
1) Don't ride really fast. Lots will disagree with that, but when you're just getting your bearings, going slowly gives you plenty of time to see your environment, and stop if you encounter an obstacle (i.e., doors opening, cars cutting you off, etc.)
2) Be predictable. This can mean a lot of different things, but don't go out of your way to confuse drivers. Ride in a straight line, obey traffic signals (I think this is generally a good idea, until they allow for cyclists to legally treat them as yield signs), go the right way down a street, etc.
3) Be polite. Don't escalate situations more than necessary - you're vulnerable, and some drivers get crazy road rage. That might not always feel satisfying, but I think it's generally a safe approach. I try to remember that at the end of the day, I want to get home to my family in one piece, so no need to be too risky about it.
Ok, fine - #4 Lights! Lots of them!
Last edited by exarkuhn15; 03-02-15 at 05:23 PM.
03-02-15, 05:06 PM
#45
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 194
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Also, as you can tell from the above argument, recognize that people will have very strong views on your riding! Friends, family, or other road users.
I'd say just go out and have fun, and try not to be too careless. I greatly enjoy riding in the city, but I also generally ride slowly, politely, and pretty predictably. It's worked out pretty well for me!
I'd say just go out and have fun, and try not to be too careless. I greatly enjoy riding in the city, but I also generally ride slowly, politely, and pretty predictably. It's worked out pretty well for me!
03-02-15, 05:36 PM
#46
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 8,721
Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4227 Post(s)
Liked 2,488 Times
in
1,286 Posts
Experience can be a very good teacher, but it can also be a very expensive teacher. While I'm always the first to advocate learning by doing, one has to realize that this method often leads to costly mistakes that could have been easily avoided had the person sought advice from "self-appointed experts".
03-02-15, 05:54 PM
#47
Senior Member
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: NYC
Posts: 526
Bikes: Too many to list
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times
in
0 Posts
Experience is the best teacher and a cheapest teacher... Costly mistakes only happen to newbies who take advice from "self appointed cycling experts" and start purchasing all kinds of costly cycling specific paraphernalia which a beginner cyclist may not even need for their particular commute.
@Jim from Boston Don't sweat it man, I wasn't referring to you at all.
03-02-15, 06:50 PM
#48
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Alpharetta, GA
Posts: 15,280
Bikes: Nashbar Road
Mentioned: 71 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2934 Post(s)
Liked 341 Times
in
228 Posts
Also, as you can tell from the above argument, recognize that people will have very strong views on your riding! Friends, family, or other road users.
I'd say just go out and have fun, and try not to be too careless. I greatly enjoy riding in the city, but I also generally ride slowly, politely, and pretty predictably. It's worked out pretty well for me!
I'd say just go out and have fun, and try not to be too careless. I greatly enjoy riding in the city, but I also generally ride slowly, politely, and pretty predictably. It's worked out pretty well for me!
The main thing is to be safe as best you can, and as you said, have some fun with it. Most seem to agree here that it's not as dangerous as it feels when we first try it.
03-02-15, 06:52 PM
#49
Banned
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Mississauga/Toronto, Ontario canada
Posts: 8,721
Bikes: I have 3 singlespeed/fixed gear bikes
Mentioned: 30 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4227 Post(s)
Liked 2,488 Times
in
1,286 Posts
Ok, you talking about costly mistakes which can lead to accidents and cost the cyclist their life ??.... Well then, I believe that bicycle commuting is more about using common sense then about taking orders from "cycling experts"...A cyclist needs to do whatever it takes to survive and get safely from point A to point B. If somebody feels it's safer to run a red light or a stop sign then break the law and do it. A cyclists can't follow riding styles or rules set by other cyclists.
03-02-15, 07:07 PM
#50
Full Member