smashndash

Hey everyone, newbie here.

I bought a 2017 Specialized Allez Sprint Comp (105 components) a few months ago, and I've been having problems with the front derailleur since I've had it. I took it to a couple shops, including the one I bought the bike from, but the situation never improved. Here's the problem:

With the limit screws pulled out, the chain rubs the inside plate of the mech significantly in the easy ring + 1st and 2nd (easiest) gears. My LBS was able to adjust it in a way such that there's much less rub, but then I have to push the shift lever all the way up and hold it there with a lot of force and pedal very gingerly to shift from the easy ring to the hard ring.

Does anyone have one of these bikes? Or maybe a bike with 105 gears? Is my experience normal? I left it at the shop asking them to figure this out (along with another issue that is more mysterious), so I want to know what to say if they tell me "that's just how it is" again.

TL;DR: My 105 front derailleur has an oddly limited range of motion, making me choose between a ton of rub or jank upshifting. Is that normal?

Thanks,
SK

Andrew R Stewart 

Is the crank a Shimano 11 speed one? (I assume the system is 11 speed). These front ders have two cable paths right at the anchor bolt, dependent on the cable's pathway around the BB shell. These ders are very cable "tension" sensitive and it's easy to set them up with too little.


Remember that a long time ago Shimano stated that chain rub on the front cage wasn't wrong... I find that with many I need to just barely have a rub in the lowest gear combo to reduce the chance of derailing off the small ring when shifting off the large. Andy

aggiegrads

No, not normal. Shimano's front derailleurs are second-to-none, and a good mechanic will have you wondering why people choose to go 1x. Front shifting should be as effortless as rear shifting, just a little more throw.

There may be something hanging up in the system - a burr in the cable housing, gatorade at the bottom bracket guide, maladjustment of the FD, fraying cable, or any number of possibilities. Do not accept the "this is how it is" line, and find a new shop if they try it.

calstar 

If you bought it within a few months the shop that sold it should fix it. If they don't/can't/won't fix it spread the word(and let them know it) regarding how that shop stands behind their sales. IBDs only chance to survive is to offer customer the service, really the only thing the internet can't do.

Brian

IrishBrewer

If the FD is set up just right, you should be able to go through the full range of rear cogs with no rub. At worst, you would have to trim it in the most extreme gear combos.

smashndash

Thanks for the replies. This is 105 5800 11 speed (shifter, cassette, RD and FD) with Jagwire cables and a Praxis crank.

One thing I didn't mention was the fact that the mechanics at both shops insist that the cable routing be done a non-standard way. If you're facing the clamp bolt, it goes from bottom left around the left to the top, then right and out. The shimano way of doing it is from the bottom, to the right of the bolt, and up from the top right. This means that the 'converter pin' beneath the bolt does not do anything on my bike.

I tried setting it up the shimano way, and I agree with the mechanics - it is nearly impossible to shift the FD when set up the shimano way with the converter either on or off.

This is why I'm asking if my experience is normal for this bike - there's clearly something non-standard about it, at the very least. I'm wondering if it may even be flawed or defective...

skillasw

If the FD is out of position even a tiny bit or bent, it won't work properly. Have you tried re positioning it?

smashndash

I didn't want to touch the positioning because I hoped that the bike shops would know better than I would in that regard. However, the issue isn't really the shifting action - it shifts fine, great even. However, when adjusted in a way that allows this easy shifting, the derailleur cable doesn't slacken enough for the FD to move inwards enough to clear the chain, despite my hitting the downshift lever multiple times (to get past the trim levels).

cyccommute 

I’ll have to disagree that Shimano front derailers are “second to none”. They are, in my opinion, pretty bad with the more expensive ones being worse than the cheaper ones. The more expensive ones tend to have more sculpting and narrower ranges than the cheaper Shimano fronts which make them much more difficult to set up.

That said, I don’t think your problem is with the set up at all. It sounds like your chain line is off. You can’t move the front derailer far enough inboard because the crankset is too far outboard. Assuming that the crank is an external bearing, you need to remove the crank, remove the bearings and move one of the spacers from the drive side to the nondrive side. You may need to put a thinner spacer on the drive side as well or instead.

smashndash

Hm. Well I'm glad I didn't upgrade to the ultegra level

What do you believe the odds are that a brand new bike from a certified dealer would have a problem with the chainline? The dealer I bought this from sells many Allez Sprints, so I imagine they have a lot of experience with them.
I'm not saying that my chainline absolutely could not be the problem, but without the cable attached, there is more than enough range of motion to cover all my needs. I think that if I were to shift the crankset inboard, that would fix the rub in easy - easy but it would probably start rubbing in hard-hard. That being said, I will bring it up to my mechanic if the issue isn't resolved.

well biked

Since it's a 2017 bike equipped with 105, it should be a 5800 series FD. These "long arm" Shimano FD's are often problematic in getting them setup satisfactorily. Without seeing your bike and getting into a hands-on diagnosis of exactly what is going on an why, I'll just say that those FD's can be such a headache that Shimano has listened and come up with a new FD design for the latest Dura Ace (9100) and Ultegra (R8000) groups. The 'long arm" design was relatively short lived. The latest 105 group is still 5800....except for the FD. Within the 5800 105 group, only the FD has gotten a complete redesign, it is now dubbed FD-5801 and is completely different than FD-5800. It's the same basic design as the 9100 and R8000 FD's mentioned above.

smashndash

I just looked this up. I think you may have just solved my headache. I am more than willing to spend the 30 odd dollars to get decent shifting performance out of this bike. I can't believe my LBS didn't even try to suggest this to me, considering they'd make a little extra cash off it. Thank you very much for this info!

Kontact 

You have it backwards. If the derailleur can't go inboard far enough, the crank is too far inboard. NOT, too far outboard.

However, the crank being too far inboard could be the issue. Praxis has you assemble the crank with the wave washer on the drive side, which is not typical and could have confused the mechanic since everybody else puts the wave washer on the NDS. So look for the wave washer, or check the chainline of the crank directly - which is generally 46mm from the center of the frame to the center of the outer ring on road bikes.

https://praxiscycles.com/wp-content/...Setup-VerC.pdf



Otherwise, 11 speed Shimano front derailleurs are difficult to set up without the little included cable guide tool.

Racing Dan

Your troubles resemble what I have on my Tiagra 4700 that is close to identical. I have had little luck resolving the issue. With the cable routed according to the manual shifting is very stiff, compounded by abnormal friction in cable guide below the BB. With the cable over clamp bolt, there seem to be too little throw in the FD and its either rubbing in the little ring or it wont shift easily to the big ring. At this point Im contemplating getting the new FD-5801 in stead of the long arm FD 4700. Its is supposed to be easier to set up, have more even resistance and resolve the steep cable angles that are the reason many mechanics "hack" the cable routing. Maybe that could be a solution for you as well, rather than paying to get the FD adjusted over and over.

https://www.bikeradar.com/road/news/...fd-5801-50639/

EDIT: I see Im late to the party. Please report back if you get the FD-5801 working.

cyccommute 

Oops. You are correct but the fix is still similar. Just add more spacers on the drive side to move the crank out.

They didn’t put the bearing in place. They received it mostly assembled. Someone at the factory made a mistake or the bottom bracket is slightly wider or wasn’t milled properly, etc. Whatever the reason, moving the crank is worth trying since it an easy fix.

pesty

I'm replying as soon as I got to this bit as I just recently setup a 5800 mechanical group and went through a lot of these issues myself. I also have an Allez Sprint and have had some headaches with FD setup, though with Di2. So some of your issues may have already been solved or address by others... so bear with me on this one... probably going to be long.

With the original release 5800, and I'm assuming 6800, you are going to have an insanely hard time getting it setup properly unless you have an inline barrel adjuster. If you don't have the perfect amount of tension in the cable during setup, you will not get it to work properly. I tried routing the cable above the bolt, pulling it with pliers while clamping the retaining bolt, etc. and every time I'd have similar issues until I added a barrel adjuster and tensioned it up after claiming the bolt.

You want to get the vertical alignment set first, then toe in (small Allen bolt inside the cage), then low limit. Barrel adjuster needs to be screwed all the way in at its lowest tension setting. Then put as much tension as you can on it while clamping the bolt. Then put as much tension in the barrel adjuster as possible to the point just before the FD starts to move. At this point, you should be able to setup the FD the way you would with previous generation (aka Normal) FDs.

The other thing I noticed on the 2017 Comp when I was test riding them was that the Praxis Alba 2D crank is a bit flexy. I was able to get it to rub the chain on the FD when in the big ring regardless of what gear I was in on the cassette on two different bikes at two different shops. This happened every time I got out of the saddle. I purchased a frameset and built it up with an Ultegra crank and never had this issue. I also have a friend that has an Allez Sprint Expert, which came with a higher end Praxis crank, and he said he never had this issue. The 2018 Comp comes with a 105 crank, not sure if Specialized did that to acknowledge a known issue or not. So I'd take a little bit of rub in some situations as being normal.

Also, I've had a little issue trimming the FD to prevent rub in the largest two cogs and the big ring, I'm sure some will say "cross-chaining bad!" but sometimes it's unavoidable. I'm going to attribute this to the short chain stays, but it can be done. You just have to get really precise with the FD setup.


EDIT: Now that I read through the rest of the way and see the FD-5801 suggestions... I'm going to agree with others, and what appears to be you're own evaluation that that's the way to go. I actually had one on order prior to getting everything worked out with the barrel adjuster and am looking forward to swapping it over. Hope switching that out solves most of your problems, but I'd still expect a little rub with that crank when really stomping on it.

Racing Dan

You can sort of pretension the cable by sticking a 6mm allen key between the cage and the frame before clamping the anchor bolt. That helps with the tension and eases the setup, but a barrel adjuster is still indispensable.

Kontact 

Replacing the FD sounds a bit premature when no one knows what the problem is and the OP can't even get his low stop set. If this is something like the Praxis crank spacer being on the wrong side, buying a new FD is throwing good money after bad.

pesty

I'm still betting that it's the FD setup. I went through almost exactly what the OP was describing when I was building up my Crockett over the weekend. Cut the cable housing just below the stem, threw in a barrel adjuster, and had it setup perfectly within 10 minutes. I honestly think whomever built the bike initially didn't properly setup the FD.

But, as the OP has already said he's more than willing to spend $30 for a 5801, which by all accounts is a much easier setup... I don't think theres any reason to be arguing over it.

Racing Dan

Trouble with the long arm Shimano FD is (can be) the cable angle if you follow the manual. The angle between cable and arm can be very acute, depending on where on the BB the cable extends up to the arm, making the shift very stiff, as OP noted. The hack is to route the cable over the anchor bolt, rather than under, but that diminishes the amount of cage throw, making it harder to achieve both no-rub in the "small ring, big cog" combo and easy shift from little ring to big ring.

Kontact 

All I'm arguing against is the automatic conclusion that FD set up problem is best dealt with by throwing out the FD. It doesn't sound like a cable angle issue if the stops aren't working.

pesty

If it's not setup properly the lever doesn't get enough pull on the cable. You can get it setup in a way that it will be lined up OK with the big ring, but not release enough slack for it to move inside to the point that it's actually even touching the lower limit screw. You can turn the limit screw all the way out, but it won't actually be doing anything.

My guess is that this is where it's at now. If you setup the lower limit with the cable not clamped... then clamp the cable, then adjust the barrel adjuster to take up every bit of tension to the point where the cage almost moves, it would probably work just fine.

That's what the shop should be doing for free to make sure it's setup properly. It wouldn't surprise me if they set it up without a barrel adjuster in place at all. It can be done, I've gotten it to work on my Propel, but it's a ***** to do and it's possible that how the alignment of the cable on the Allez may not allow this method to work. I always wondered why the Propel came with a barrel adjuster for the FD but not the RD... over the weekend I figured it out.

Kontact 

That all may be true, but doesn't necessarily explain why he can't get the FD inboard far enough with the low stop screw all the way out.

Racing Dan

Except there is a reason the mechanics insist on routing the cable over the anchor bolt. Its because the cable angle is too acute to work with the recommended shimano setup, making the shift (too) stiff. Hacking the cable route has other issues though. As already noted.

pesty

Not true. I tried exactly that over the weekend for exactly the reason you described. Looks like the wrong angle to pull the arm. Over the top of the bolt didn't work and is what got me to the point that the OP is describing. Angle appeared good, but either not enough pull to get on the big ring, or if I got it setup to work with the big ring, didn't let out enough to hit the limit screw in the small ring.

Adding the barrel adjuster and taking up the tension worked in the default, Shimano recommended position.