eggnoggbubble

interesting, you're in a minority, can I ask you why you think CC would be better than Pacer? MS seems to be an updated Pacer, tho the updates seem quite substantial and thus make it quite a different bike, nevertheless I'm interested in your perspective.

eggnoggbubble

Yep, it is a little odd that there are so few, maybe not really selling? And/or not enough publicity? (seems like MS has gotten the lion's share of coverage). I saw that same "my bike is basically a Pack Rat" review, a good look at that style of bike (front loading) but not really helpful for the Pack Rat specifically.... Couldn't count the number of hits that were the same press release...

Also, color isn't a deal-breaker for me, but at least one option that wasn't white wouldve been nice...

eggnoggbubble

Wow, nice, looks great all decked out as a commuter (that's how mine will be, most photos online have been stripped-down racey mode), and you sound happy with the ride - from your distances, setup and inclusion of trains I assume speed isn't your top priority, that's good to know as I tend to be pretty relaxed myself (most but not all the time).

Any comment on the handling with weight on that front rack? My interest in the PR is all from how I love to throw a bag on the front and go (weighed my work bag yesterday: 7kg, tho to be honest that was a particularly heavy day, it'd never be heavier than that, mostly well under 5kg, and I'm not adverse to compromising by throwing some stuff on the back on heavy days to keep the front load lighter) If the MS can handle 4-5kg on the front ok that might well sway my decision....

hmmm just realized I'll be able to try that on my friends (don't think he'll have a front rack but we can always attach something for the test ride.) No test riding today tho - raiiiinnnnyyyyyyyyyy out.

Still not ruling the PR out - it would be a lot cheaper, and I find I'm very curious about it (partly stylistically - rando seems pleasingly retro!), wish there were more reviews (if i get the PR i will definitely have to write one...). Admittedly it's rare I ride without luggage but I'd be bummed if it turns out that isn't really an option....

Probably have ruled out the CC and straggler tho....down to a choice of two! MS nudging slightly ahead tho it's currently still a close race....

eggnoggbubble

Had a look at the was-retroshift levers, wow does look like a good solution, and not much more than bar ends and shifters, will definitely bear those in mind.. 1x drivetrain isn't going to work though, did play with the gear calculator but numbers didn't look too good, got some steep hills around here that I occasionally ride loaded...

matimeo

I know this isn't what you're looking for, but Surly bikes are heavy, over-hyped and over-priced, in my opionion.
But to each his own.
You can get more bike for the same price if you look elsewhere.

bikeaddiction1

I am fortunate to have a few regular rides but my Cross Check is my SUV of bikes. I is comfortable and carries a load easily without being a boring ride. It handles front loads, back loads, or both without a problem. It may not be the stable, planted tourer that a LHT is, but it will be more fun to ride when lightly or not loaded, and still is quite acceptqble loaded. I have done a couple light tours on it where I put front panniers on my Tubus Duo low rider rack and a handlebar bag and it handles the load fine, feels planted. The Cross Check is no racer but it does most things short of mountain biking with a bit of spirit. (No, I don't work for Surly)

My buddy has a Straggler and loves it. If I where buying now I would choose it as I have had bikes with hydraulic disks for 15 years and much prefer them over rim brakes, but the mini Vee brakes on the CC work well.

I also have 1 x 12 on my mountain bike and 1 x 11 on my gravel bike. !x is great on those rides where you are constantly going up and down and dumping lots of gears, but I would not go to 1x on a bike that I like to keep a cadence on.

You will likely enjoy whatever you choose.

jlaw

Even though I really like the looks of the Midnight Special there is some truth in what you say. For example, the Kona Rove - aluminum frame and fork (may be a bit lighter, but possibly harsher), solid 9 speed drive train, TRP Spyre mech. discs, OEM fenders and Schwalbe tires. $1099 instead of $2000.

The Rove is a model line - 6 models priced from $849 to $3599. KONA BIKES | ROAD / GRAVEL | ROVE

With big (ger) tires at low pressure the ride of the aluminum frame and fork might be indistinguishable from the steel-framed Midnight Special (I'm still recovering from the ride offered by my 1999 Cannondale with 23mm tires - I don't miss that bike!)

The Rove fits 700x40 or 650bx47.

Bicycling magazine did a review last year: https://www.bicycling.com/bikes-gear...a-rove-review/

One thing I might change is the 50/34 crank for the new Shimano GRX 46/30 road crank (about $150 for crank set and BB) - or maybe a less exensive 39/26 MTB crank. The OEM cassette is a useful 11-34.

And, a set of 650b MTB wheels would be good so a set of 47mm tires could be mounted. The front fork of the Rove is 100mm and the rear is 135mm so it takes an MTB wheel set. A QR to Through-Axle conversion kit will be needed if the MTB wheels are TA - about $250 for wheels and kit: Mavic 27.5 in Mountain bike Wheelset Shimano XT 6 Bolt Disc Hub [740757] - $199.00 Velomine.com : Worldwide Bicycle Shop, fixed gear track bike wheelsets campagnolo super record vintage bike


This is the $1099 model - Rove DL

Based upon the Bicycling review this rig should weigh around 27 lbs.

jlaw

Or, the Salsa Journeyman 650b - a lot to love here for $1199. It is spec'd a bit more along the lines of what I'd like as compared to the Kona Rove DL - 650b wheels, 9 speed with 46/30 crank and 11-34 cassette. I'm not so sure about Promax brakes - might be ok.

I'd put some fenders on it and switch the tires to something less aggressive for about $150.

26 lbs. as shown

https://salsacycles.com/bikes/journe...eyman_sora_650

golftdi

Yes, speed is not a priority for me. As far as handling with weight on the front, I have only had the front rack on since Monday, and have not yet put any significant weight on it (just added a Wald basket last night, and this morning I rode to yoga class with a Swift Sugarloaf in the basket with just my wallet, keys, and phone) so I can't really give you advice on that. For me, the front rack will be supplementary and used on weekends (like this morning). I will continue to use 2 rear panniers for my commute.

I do have this caution about using the front rack -- I learned last night that my handlebar mounted headlight is blocked by the Sugarloaf bag in the basket, so I won't be carrying the bag at night. Also, I had to mount the Wald basket lengthwise, because when mounted sidewise the sides of the basket hindered the inward motion of my shifters. Not a big deal for me, but it does mean I don't have easy access to the contents of the bag in the basket from the cockpit.

Finally, regarding the cost of the MS, which is not insignificant, I was extremely fortunate as to buy mine used but in new condition (other than a scrubbed up decal), from an employee of my LBS, at a significant savings.

If I had been planning to use the front rack as my primary rack and for heavier loads, I would probably have bought a Pack Rat.

Good luck in your decision I'm sure you'll be happy with whichever you choose!

Rob

RubeRad

Wow, much love for the Midnight Special. Also has disks -- what is the big difference between MS and Straggler? (I do like also that MS has thru-axles, I like that concept better than QR)

Darth Lefty 

Surly doesn’t win on price usually but it seems unfair to compare the MS to the Jo. Sora when the Vaya 105 is more similar and also $2k

rollalongnow

Fork beef for one. Direct mount discs, a rear stay similar to the proven LHT. Straggler has a funny triangle around the disc mounts. I assume that’s for rigidity, which seems to be a fix to support disc vs a design. Wasn’t a big fan of discs until I used them, my thought was it was a gimmick on a road bike. Love them now. Surly has been using the same core rode frame for some time now, not much of a difference between Crosscheck, Straggler and the now gone Pacer (which also loved). Midnight Special appears to be rather clean sheet. Tubes are tubes, but the design for the MS is clearly ground up vs. the straggler. I like both, but if going disc, then the MS is the better choice on direct mount alone. Not a fan of the weld on mounting bracket with a bolt on adapter. Would like to see a lot of what they’ve put into the MS show up on the LHT. That thing is just perfection for touring.

Needs some colors though...Maybe that will come.

rollalongnow

Its not carbon so only legit cyclist care, and we’re to busy riding. LOL

Tabor

I built myself a Surly Pacer in 2004 and a Surly Crosscheck with a Civia front disc sometime latter. I would say go with the Straggler. Discs are a great feature on a commuter, as is the 1x11 drivetrain.

There's some truth in that. If I needed a new bike tomorrow I'd be looking really hard at a Raleigh Redux and I'd have some money left over for accessories, customization, and spare parts.

gorillimo

My Cross Check is turning out to be one of my favorite bikes ever. It's right up with my '73 Paramount and that's saying a bunch......

eggnoggbubble

Hey all thanks for all the pointers! I've spent the last couple of mornings on the internet (bad weather facilitates bike research!) and I think I've reached a tentative decision.I've become clearer that front-loading is important to me:

• the convenience of strap-backpack-and-go (or even throw-it-in-basket-and-go if I add a basket)
• the weight of one bag will be centered (I used to ride my Sirrus with one pannier, it was ok, but a little weird if the pannier got heavy).
• I've got some bumps and occasional curbs to negotiate, easier with weight up front, I can remember back weight waving around on my Sirrus)
• have hills - climbing with weight up front seems easier
• I've been reading Jan Heine....(I recognize opinion is divided on that tho!)
• Any touring I do will be short (1-2 nights) and light

main factor tho: the convenience, don't want to fuss when commuting!

Additionally I realize I'm hoping to keep this project within $1500, certainly less than $2000 (a good price-point for an exploratory purchase: I haven't bike commuted full time in years, and I haven't tried this kind of front-loader before) which rules out the MS (the Surly-are-a-tad-overpriced argument definitely applies here).

Narrowing the field to front-loading limits my choices quite a bit, basically (bike / frameset price / brake type):

• Pack Rat / $515 / Canti or V
• Soma Grand Randoneer / $490 / Canti or V
• Velo Orange Polyvalent / $725 / Disk
• Rawland Ravn / $950 / Disk

and budget limits me to Pack Rat or Soma (it's possible I won't be happy with rim brakes, time will tell, but it seems disks are out of my budget range anyway - the disk front-loading frames are a lot more expensive - tho I did drool over the Ravn, looks like an awesome all-round adventure bike).

and since I have a Surly dealer 10mins from my house....Pack Rat it is!

I also watched the pathlesspedaled review a bunch of times and he seems pretty happy with it overall, there was one commenter loved his too, so I'm going to go with it. Will be heading down to the LBS sometime soon to discuss the build....

Final comment is from golftdi tho:

Yup, it's definitely possible to overthink these things, research has been done, decision has been taken, I'm sure it will be great! Might take a while but you can expect an update with pics and thoughts on the bike once I get it!

thanks again for all the help, seeing all your thoughts (and replying with my own) really helped me nail this down!

cheers everyone hope you are getting out on your bikes this weekend (rainy here....)

golftdi

Glad to help (and we all enjoy the vicarious thrill of your search)

Darth Lefty 

Post photos when you’re ready

DHPflaumer

I'm late to the party but awesome call on the Pack Rat! If they had made them a few years ago I would have one instead of my CC. While the CC handles a front load alright, it is noticeably worse at it than my main (randonneur) bike. That might be related to my tendency to pack the hell out of Surly Porteurhouse bag (on a 24 pack rack!) but it is what it is- the steering is bad when it's really loaded down.

As for the Surly PR v Soma GR debate (I know it's settled)- I will say that my GR is also lovely but I found it to be lighter and flexier than I like. Part of what sold me on the slightly "stout" randonneur that Norther Cycles put out was my experience with the GR. I think if you want to have the option to haul lots of crap around while still maintaining a fun ride, the Surly is an awesome choice.

RubeRad

Yup, that is the key. At some point you have to just commit to a decision and start enjoying. All of the options discussed here are good options that would result in an enjoyable and useful bike.

golftdi

With a light weight on the front rack, my MS rides just fine. Last night I put a heavier load in front (sorry no pics), and I will say that it rides better with heavier weight on the back rack, than it does on the front rack.

Korina

@golftdi, okay now you're just showing off. Well done!

golftdi

busted!

eggnoggbubble

Thought I'd provide a brief update:

I still like the PR but it seems it's Y196,000 ($1,806), ouch, really I was hoping this to come in around Y150,000....(CC is about that, PR seems to be $400 more....), i've been finding it very difficult to justify the purchase at that price. Part of the extra seems to be because low-trail is a bit of a niche (there isn't really anything cheaper available) and part seems to be because surly is very trendy...

Looking around at alternatives I've found the Fuji Feather CX+, - basically a steel road plus (700 wheels) bike with disk brakes, for Y100,000 ($995) - half the price!! (and well under my Y150,000 or so budget) Will need to add a rear rack to that of course ($50~100?).

So....although I would love a bike that loads well at the front.....is it worth an extra $800??? I'm finding it hard to feel that it is...

An extra way of thinking about this is with the Fuji I could try it out, see how I get on with loading the rear (which admittedly I have done before, wasn't wild about it though it did the job) with the option to get a Rawland Ravn frameset later on down the line - both are disk so presumably I could switch my parts across to get my low-trail front-loader...(PR not disk so that wouldn't work, unless Surly bring out a disk version....) Ravn does look pretty dreamy, takes 26-650-700 wheels with big tires, looks like every bike I could ever want. (there's a ravn frameset on ebay for $600 but not in my size.)



Gonna have to sit with this one a little longer, I really do like the look and concept of the PR, but really not sure I like it enough to pay an extra $800...(the wonderwife did ok the PR purchase, she was a little surprised at the inflated budget but said I should buy the bike I want <3! )

the sci guy 

I had a 2016 Cross Check and loved it. I sold it to buy a carbon bike because I was doing a lot of t-shirt rides plus the MS rides here. But I've noticed the same thing in Surly's latest models with the fat head tube - what's the deal with it? I feel the same way - it leaps out at me aesthetically. Not in a good way...

Don't be afraid to check out All City bikes as well. Similar to Surly's offerings, with maybe a few more points for style. The Macho Man may suit your needs - though I'm not sure it's got mounts for a front rack.