bikerbobbbb

I'm riding my bike more. I started jogging more a couple years ago. I notice my knees a little more.

In this post I'm looking for solutions... To get the weird/slight pain to go away, but...

And it's a big but.... I'm not looking for changes in my bike. Assume that my bike is fine and that my seat height/position is ok. No improvements possible there.

For biking and jogging, I can ease back. That's one approach. But I'll keep riding my bike, and I'll keep jogging.


So my question is more (if not the sole focus for this thread) on the human knee/leg side....
How can I improve my knees (as soon as possible or reasonably possible)? Assume I'm easing back on running and biking. Bike-wise, I can pedal lighter. But I won't always want to.

2) Do I need to strengthen my knees (and muscles around the knees)? I'm thinking in part it's weak muscles to support the knee. That's probably correct. I'm also thinking there may be a slight imbalance, esp. toward pulling on the kneecap. Running does on thing. Biking does another.

Symptoms on the knees...
It was one. That went away. Now it's both, but I massaged them, esp. moving the kneecap around.
Slight pain, feels like it's from the joint.
Clicking. That's what I first noticed.


Disregard going to the doctor. That's out. They'll tell me common sense approaches. I'm thinking more a strength training/stretching/easing approach, more like physical therapy, can overcome this. I'm paying health care myself, so if I go the doctor, I pay 100%. $$$ to hear the doctor say, "Don't do that." Plus, I think this can be overcome.

Tight calf muscles. I'm working on that. That's very likely related.

Stretching, massage, light use.... and more strength in the leg and knee areas I'm thinking.


What say you? I'm looking for ideas....

(Someone will mention pedalling cadence... Yes, I got that. Lighter use on the bike. But that's not the solution I'm looking for. That bike-focused. I want to overcome this and pedal however I want on the bike. Assume the bike is fitted to me, posture is good, leg/pedal length is good, etc. I'm not that interested in the bike itself here. Just fixing/improving my knees/legs.)

(Ditto on the doctor again. This sounds like a common issue. The answers/solutions are already out there. I'm just looking for what will work.)


And then it will heal up some. I'll strengthen things. And I can push things again until the next weak area starts to break.

NYMXer

If I understood you correctly, you do not want to see a Dr or make adjustments to your bike. That doesn't leave many options but I think the jogging might need to take a break until the knee heals from whatever is bothering it. The constant pounding on pavement is not good for any knee and things get real complicated the more you weigh.
I would look at the seat position for/aft of the pedals with you on the bike. The underside of your kneecap should align with the front edge of your pedal. Maybe take some supplements like fish oil, chondroitin and glucosamine. If inflamed, some ibuprofen or similar anti inflammatory medicine. Maybe consider a knee brace? Stretching before a work out and icing afterwards.
In the end, the choice is yours but I would consult a Dr or get some physical therapy and consider some of the suggestions I offered you.
Good luck and if you found something that helped you, post it and share with us. The info might help other people in a similar situation.
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demoncyclist

So you are fishing for advice, but have already stated that you won't listen to most of what we are all thinking, based on our collective centuries of experience? Maybe you should just delete your account now- you obviously know it all already...

RonH

Are you afraid of what the doctor will tell you?
I had similar problems in 2008. Went to see a sports medicine doc (orthopedic) and he told me I had a torn meniscus. Minor arthroscopic surgery fixed it. My physical therapy was to ride on the trainer for 4 weeks. Then I was back out on the road. He said my knees were good till I was 100.

GovernorSilver

Running is known to be hard on the knees. Try giving that up for a while.

You reject going to see a doctor. How about seeing a physical therapist? He/she at least might be able to identify if you have muscle imbalance in your legs. Your quad being stronger than your hamstring is one possible cause of knee pain. Obviously if you strengthen your quads without strengthening your hamstrings, the pain would get even worse - assuming this even is the real cause of your problem, and not something like a torn patella or whatever.

fietsbob

Yea Pay a Sports Physical Therapist for their more educated input on the question.

the answers here are worth their cost .. .. zip.

Little Darwin

For the first half of the post I was going to say that you should try spinning instead of mashing, but apparently that is out... I spin, and have arthritis in both knees... The best thing I do for my knees is riding.

You didn't mention whether you belong to a gym. If so, ask a trainer there how to strengthen your knees. I can't imagine too much other than cycling that will strengthen the muscles you need for cycling, but some gym equipment may help you if things are out of balance... perhaps leg extensions, leg curls, or ???

Calder Benson

Have you ruled out a clinical issue?

If so,

Foam roller
Glucosamine
Swimming
Bike riding

No running at all

Then find a chiro or personal trainer who is competent at strengthening the posterior chain.

wheelsmcgee

I have similar experiences...about 6 or 7 years ago, I began running. Before that, I basically did an elliptical trainer exclusively, and once I started running, I alternated between the two. Since starting biking more about a year or so ago, I've pretty much given up the elliptical and now alternate between biking (largely indoors on a trainer) and running (largely outside, when its nice). I do something 5 or 6 times a week...about an hour or so a session. I also don't go see the doctor much when I have an issue, because I don't have time to go to a GP (who knows nothing) so I can get a referral to a specialist (who knows something, but can see me in 8 weeks...LOL).

My non-expert thoughts: Running can mess up your knees. I've been lucky and haven't had issues for a while, but would encounter knee pain periodically...one time when I was running a lot, I had this weird "scraping" feeling in one knee...it would start about a 1/4 mile into a run, and make running unbearable. After experiencing this a few times, I stopped running for two weeks entirely. I went back to running and it came back. I then stopped running for another 4 weeks. I started running again and it was fine, and has been for many years. So, some minor things will heal, but I think its important to give up the offending exercise for a while. Its probably running, but mashing on pedals can be just about as bad.

My thoughts based on my own personal experiences:
1. Doing different things allows a body to heal and reinforces muscle groups that don't get used as often with a single activity...so keep doing that and maybe try to throw in something else, like some weight training or swimming maybe, and ease back on the running (if that's the primary offender).
2. As far as running goes, a lot can be done with *how* you run (including shoes, terrain, etc). I noticed that for me personally, I seem to do better injury-wise since I've switched to a forefoot strike (plenty of info about that online if you're not familiar).
3. Elliptical machines rule. Its very similar to running, and having used it for a few years probably aided greatly when I began running. I've had lots of little issues/injuries (especially early on) when I began running, but with the elliptical, virtually none of them were affected...including things that made merely walking difficult. I basically stopped using it because my machine is getting old and worn...it should be retired to the elliptical hall of fame. If I again have an issue that prevents me from running and/or biking, I will get a new elliptical machine in a heart beat. I bought a decent one...the good ones are probably around $2k or so these days.

CdaleNike21

As far as running goes, go to a good running shoe store and let them analyze your gait and buy shoes accordingly.

Machka 

Read this ...

CYCLING PERFORMANCE TIPS - Knee Pain

StanSeven

Running or cycling doesn't hurt knees that function properly from a biomechcanical perspective. People with knees that hurt have some kind of imbalance or mechanical issues. The only way to find out is have an expert analyze whether that's a doctor, a speciality running store with the right equipment, or a bike fitter.

Trying to strengthen knees without knowing what's going on may make things worse.

bikerbobbbb

Sorry. That was a bit ranty before. I'm tired. A pre-rebuttal/attack on the people who would respond that way. It's the internet, and there one forum I've posted on that is set in their responses.

I'll catch up later, but glancing through it... Someone posted exactly what I said wasn't the focus -- bike position, leg position, etc.

This idea is something along the lines of....
Massage
Stretching
Strengthening
or something in that direction.

I'm just not exactly sure what yet.
Something to strengthen those same muscles used in bike riding and jogging?
Or something to balance out the bike riding and jogging muscles?

I have a feeling biking riding is using certain muscles, while jogging uses different ones. Something with those pushes of strengthen from those activities is fighting against each other (maybe actually pulling on the kneecap a little).

I'll figure it out eventually I suppose.

hags

I had a torn meniscus due to a work injury. I went to see a well known orthopedic surgeon at a high end sports/orthopedic center and he recommended surgery (of course).

The surgery was a nightmare, the pain was worse, I couldn't do any physical therapy due to the pain, swelling and restricted range of motion.

I had so much swelling that it had to be drained 3 times. I had numerous cortisone shots to no effect.

Another MRI and another surgery, 18 months of physical therapy, cortisone shots and I was still in pain with limited range of motion.

The only thing that helped me rehabilitate my knee after three years of getting nowhere was getting back on a bike, strengthening my quads and losing weight.

The kicker is that I've since found out that a torn meniscus doesn't require surgery in the majority of cases.

If I was you I'd get an MRI and lay off the impact exercises such as running.

StanSeven

Knees are tricky. The kneecap is like a plate suspended by multiple bands. If one set of muscles is stronger than the others, the bands get pulled on that side and the knee feels the strain. If your issue is an imbalance, stretching and strengthening the weaker muscles is important. The secret is finding the right ones.

If you don't want to get professional help, you can find a lot online. You can test yourself using fitness equipment to help. For example, there are ratios of weights you can light with hamstring curls as opposed to seated leg lifts. For example you should be able to do a certain percentage greater weight on one exercise versus another. That helps in isolating the weaknesses.

GovernorSilver

I agree. If I had to spend money, I'd rather spend it on professional help regarding figuring out what the hell is wrong with my knees, than on nice cycling gear or other material goods. Material things can be gotten later/replaced. You only get one set of knees.

Rich Gibson 

I'm 73 and have run most of my life then had a torn meniscus in both knees and surgery for them. Stop running indefinitely (guess you don't want to hear that) If your knee joint is worn past a certain point neither massage or strengthening will help. Pedaling faster will lessen the load on your knees. Of course they may not be worn out, but possibly over used. I switched to cycling two years ago and have had no problems with my knees once I found a fitter and he worked out some alignment issues. I just reached 11,000 miles on my bike.

What is the reason for insisting that nothing on the bike needs correction? There is a reason sincere folks are all telling you the same thing. If you want to filter out things which don't seem to fit your expectations there's little than can be done for you. A good (read NOT the LBS standard) fitter might just find a solution. I'd recommend one as a first step and not looking for hardware or clothing to solve your knee problems. Use that money on an expert who will look at everything about your riding...but you need to go in with an open mind which excludes nothing.

Good luck! Rich

hoodat

I never heard of a bike fitter. How would you find one?

RonH

At most GOOD bike shops. If your shop doesn't offer professional fitting ask the owner what shops do offer it.

Homebrew01

Yup. Ruling out solutions limits the options.

Homebrew01

Why ? They could be contributing factors.

habilis

@bikerbobbbb, do you run on the shoulder of the road or any other non-level surface? That makes one foot consistently lower than the other and jolts the knee of the lower leg sideways. The knee is bent outward, not its natural bending direction. This caused me knee pain until I figured out what I was doing wrong. The problem disappeared when I began running on level ground.

habilis

Who are we to question people who went through years of medical school (and now must pay off their tuition loans)?

I have known several people who were assured by doctors that they absolutely needed surgery for:

- knee pain
- torn rotator cuff (shoulder injury)
- back pain
- you name it.

I and two other people I know were assured that we would never recover from a torn rotator cuff without surgery. (In my case, the doctor based his recommendation on an MRI of my shoulder.) All of us declined surgery, rested the shoulder, and recovered completely in 6 months or less with no medical treatment.

My sister suffered a back injury when she was 20 and had surgery. Her back has been a problem ever since (she is now in her 70's). I suffered a similar injury, and she told me my back would never be the same. An ethical orthopedic surgeon put me on an exercise regimen that not only healed my back, it made it stronger than ever. (I am 67 and I just finished hauling 80-lb. bags of cement and pouring footings for a deck.)

stevebiker

I'm a hiker, and glucosamine has helped my knees a lot. It works.

Also, I second the comment about jogging. You jar your skeletal system when you bounce up and down. Cycling provides much of the same cardiovascular workout, without the compression stress of running. But if you're determined to keep jogging, at least take glucosamine.

El Gato27

I wish I could tell you which way to pull on the giant rubber band, but since neither one of us knows what’s wrong I might be doing more harm than good.
I would recommend seeing a sports medicine Dr. and tell him you will not consider surgery as an option, but would like to know what is wrong and to address the problem with rehab as best as possible. He will likely send you to a physical therapist that will show you how to do exercises to correctly address your problem. You do the rehab at your house.

A little background:

I am 55 and have had two knee surgeries, one on each knee. Right for torn meniscus, about a month of rehab and I was good to go, that was about 12 years ago, no problems since. Left was initially diagnosed as the same but was actually the cartilage worn to the bone, ~6 months rehab, knee is probably ~80-85%; good enough, that was about 6 years ago.

Currently have issues with my rotator cuff, tibial band (thigh), back and planter fasciitis (feet). I do about 30 minutes of rotating rehab daily to keep all that in check. I may sound pretty beat up but I am actually in really good shape, just need keep up with my ongoing “rehab”.

My problem was (is) that I was very active, played lots of basketball when I was younger (till my early 40s), lots of running, karate, a few other assorted sports and can’t forget cycling. Just wear and tear, I can live with that.

I run a bit, do lots of walking, hiking, camping and all the cycling I can manage. I am mow my own yard, trim my own trees, work on my cars, etc….

Don’t think I would have figured it all out on my own.