Notices
Professional Cycling For the Fans Follow the Tour de France,the Giro de Italia, the Spring Classics, or other professional cycling races? Here's your home...

Tour de Lance

Old 07-22-04, 11:56 AM
  #1  
jukt
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
jukt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: flatland
Posts: 316

Bikes: trek - lemond

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Tour de Lance

La Machine wins again.


Is Lance the greatest athlete ever ?
jukt is offline  
Old 07-22-04, 12:26 PM
  #2  
FatBomber
It's not easy being green
 
FatBomber's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Chicago
Posts: 437

Bikes: Cannondale Jekyll 700, Jamis Eclipse

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
He is a great cyclist, but he is no Jim Thorpe.
FatBomber is offline  
Old 07-22-04, 12:29 PM
  #3  
MacMan
Sick ... again
 
MacMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Not the greatest athlete ever. Not even the greatest cyclist ever (there is more to cycling than just Le Tour ...)
MacMan is offline  
Old 07-22-04, 01:27 PM
  #4  
washed up
Senior Member
 
washed up's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Reality
Posts: 1,933
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
You can argue on the greatest ever part but I do think he is the best in the sport today. He can win whatever he puts his mind to. Right now it is the tour. There is nobody in the tour that can keep pace with him. I would like to hear of a name on the list of the greatest riding today who is not in the tour.
washed up is offline  
Old 07-22-04, 01:58 PM
  #5  
Iron Chef
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Illinois
Posts: 372
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by washed up
...I would like to hear of a name on the list of the greatest riding today who is not in the tour.
Bart Wellens
Roland Green
Nicolas Vouilloz
Brian Lopes
Filip Meirhaeghe
Roel Paulissen

Iron Chef is offline  
Old 07-22-04, 03:08 PM
  #6  
jukt
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
jukt's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: flatland
Posts: 316

Bikes: trek - lemond

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Good points all.

I would have to say that the GAofT is between Lance and Ahnuult. All AS did was pose, but it was the single minded decication of purpose that sets these two men apart, IMHO.

The constant daily routine of diet, training, and learning, the ability to respond to coaching.

Lance sits at the end of the stage he wants to win, and takes it. AS had the Mr O.

It was, and is, the will to win that separates these two men from the rest.

Greatest, ???, most dominant, yes .
jukt is offline  
Old 07-22-04, 03:13 PM
  #7  
boze
gentleman of leisure
 
boze's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Washington DC
Posts: 669
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
'greatest athlete ever' is a fine description as far as i'm concerned.

i mean there are plenty of threads about how merckx is the greatest cyclist of all time and they site things like how Lance himself acknowledges it. but lance is pretty pious on camera - he says things like 'tomorrow will be a tough day and basso could put some time into me'. he's not going to call out his own heroes.

"greatest athlete of their time" is one thing, but "greatest athlete of _all time" will always be someone active in the sport at present give or take a few years.

seriously, a baseball enthusiast i know recently spoke of how in Babe Ruth's time you can see footage of him with time to step twice before a pitch got there! Wilt Chamberlain gives up like >100lbs to Shaquille O'Neal! honestly, i don't even think Ali could beat Tyson in his prime, much less Lennox Lewis!

to play pop psychologist for a minute, i think maybe we all want to find a double standard for heroes of old as a way to hang on to our own youth.

-- and i want to add that i'm _really not trying to bait anybody here, the great ones of the past can be unparalleled in terms of competitive spirit, will or even technique. i just think that we need to face facts in terms of physical ability that on some very measurable level the heroes of old are "not as great" because they didn't benefit from the science of athletics and performance as it has evolved to this point. i'd love to see a stat of an exact race where Merckx has a better standing time at that point than LA does now, but this is a race after all and if Lance will always be stronger and faster then he is better in at least that respect. focus, drive and other intangibles make a champion as much as anything but in some sense you gotta leave it to the record books and the numbers tell the story.

Last edited by boze; 07-22-04 at 03:19 PM.
boze is offline  
Old 07-22-04, 03:16 PM
  #8  
MacMan
Sick ... again
 
MacMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by jukt
La Machine wins again.
Shouldn't it be Le Machine ... unless you're saying Lance is a girl!
MacMan is offline  
Old 07-22-04, 03:34 PM
  #9  
55/Rad
Form*r Ho*rd*r
 
55/Rad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,723

Bikes: Seven Axiom, Dave Moulton Fuso

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by MacMan
there is more to cycling than just Le Tour ...
There is more to football than just the Super Bowl, more to baseball than just the World Series, more to the NBA than just the world championship and more to soccer than just the World Cup.

In individual sports, golf and tennis have their majors but is it fair to say that the Giro is to the TdF as the US Open is to Wimbledon or the Masters? I don't think so. The Tour de France is by far the pinnacle of cycling and any 10 other events combined still can't equal the value of winning one tour.

55/Rad
55/Rad is offline  
Old 07-22-04, 03:42 PM
  #10  
Gustaf
Senior Member
 
Gustaf's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Seattle
Posts: 539
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by 55/Rad
There is more to football than just the Super Bowl, more to baseball than just the World Series, more to the NBA than just the world championship and more to soccer than just the World Cup.

In individual sports, golf and tennis have their majors but is it fair to say that the Giro is to the TdF as the US Open is to Wimbledon or the Masters? I don't think so. The Tour de France is by far the pinnacle of cycling and any 10 other events combined still can't equal the value of winning one tour.

55/Rad
So all the people who have won Paris-Roubaix multiple times, they arenít real champions right? I mean they have never even won a tour stage for god sakes! Failures on the bike if you ask me!
Gustaf is offline  
Old 07-22-04, 05:56 PM
  #11  
Hitchy
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: Melbourne Oz
Posts: 2,397

Bikes: how long have you got?

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
g'day,

No-one can dispute that Lance is the greatest exponent of 3 week cycle tours, of his era. Anything beyond that is conjecture. It is difficult enough to compare cyclists from one era to another...it's impossible to compare athletes from one sport to another,

cheers,

Hitchy
Hitchy is offline  
Old 07-22-04, 06:33 PM
  #12  
55/Rad
Form*r Ho*rd*r
 
55/Rad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,723

Bikes: Seven Axiom, Dave Moulton Fuso

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Gustaf
So all the people who have won Paris-Roubaix multiple times, they arenít real champions right? I mean they have never even won a tour stage for god sakes! Failures on the bike if you ask me!
Sure, they are champions deserving of all the spoils due and no less. But they haven't won the big one.

55/Rad
55/Rad is offline  
Old 07-22-04, 07:42 PM
  #13  
KennethToronto
Go Go Fassa
 
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 398
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by MacMan
Shouldn't it be Le Machine ... unless you're saying Lance is a girl!

well, "machine" is feminine, so "La Machine" would be correct
KennethToronto is offline  
Old 07-22-04, 09:40 PM
  #14  
washed up
Senior Member
 
washed up's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Reality
Posts: 1,933
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Iron Chef
Bart Wellens
Roland Green
Nicolas Vouilloz
Brian Lopes
Filip Meirhaeghe
Roel Paulissen

Who?
washed up is offline  
Old 07-23-04, 12:07 AM
  #15  
Merckxrider
Senior Member
 
Merckxrider's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Location: NY f-ing City
Posts: 154

Bikes: 2004 Team SC, 2003 Eddy Merckx Leader, 1991 Yo Eddy Team Fat Chance

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
So, if all goes well, Lance will be the first to do 6 consecutive TDF's. Will that put him above Eddy Merckx as the greatest biker ever? Then again, Eddy didn't have a carbon Trek to ride...
Merckxrider is offline  
Old 07-23-04, 06:50 AM
  #16  
pjbaz
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: CT
Posts: 857
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Merckxrider
So, if all goes well, Lance will be the first to do 6 consecutive TDF's. Will that put him above Eddy Merckx as the greatest biker ever? Then again, Eddy didn't have a carbon Trek to ride...
NO.

Lance is great but Merckx was a badass for sure.

PJ
pjbaz is offline  
Old 07-23-04, 07:41 AM
  #17  
Murrays
Mad Town Biker
 
Murrays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 974
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Iron Chef
Bart Wellens
Roland Green
Nicolas Vouilloz
Brian Lopes
Filip Meirhaeghe
Roel Paulissen


Can you elaborate on why these guys aren't in the Tour? I could see not fitting in with professional cycling, etc., but what measure do you have to say they are greater than those in the Tour?

-murray
Murrays is offline  
Old 07-23-04, 08:05 AM
  #18  
55/Rad
Form*r Ho*rd*r
 
55/Rad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,723

Bikes: Seven Axiom, Dave Moulton Fuso

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Merckxrider
So, if all goes well, Lance will be the first to do 6 consecutive TDF's. Will that put him above Eddy Merckx as the greatest biker ever? Then again, Eddy didn't have a carbon Trek to ride...
Eddy had access to the very best available at the time, from equipment to training methods to drugs. Just like everybody else.

55/Rad
__________________
55/Rad is offline  
Old 07-23-04, 08:09 AM
  #19  
shokhead
05 Roubaix Comp Double
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: So Cal
Posts: 4,665

Bikes: 2012 Trek Madone 6.2

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Cant remember what channel i was watching but they called it Tour de boring. He really cracked himself up.
shokhead is offline  
Old 07-23-04, 08:14 AM
  #20  
MacMan
Sick ... again
 
MacMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by KennethToronto
well, "machine" is feminine, so "La Machine" would be correct
Right, but would this still apply in the context where the machine in question isn't an object but is male?

(Serious question ... my French is terrible after years and years of neglect )
MacMan is offline  
Old 07-23-04, 08:16 AM
  #21  
Iron Chef
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Illinois
Posts: 372
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Murrays
Can you elaborate on why these guys aren't in the Tour? I could see not fitting in with professional cycling, etc., but what measure do you have to say they are greater than those in the Tour?

-murray
They are professional cyclist. What messure do you have to say the average Tour de France rider is greater than the guys I listed?

Someone wanted to hear of a name on the list of the greatest riding today who were not in the Tour de France. I though my list had some pretty good cyclist in it.
Iron Chef is offline  
Old 07-23-04, 08:20 AM
  #22  
MacMan
Sick ... again
 
MacMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by 55/Rad
There is more to football than just the Super Bowl, more to baseball than just the World Series, more to the NBA than just the world championship and more to soccer than just the World Cup.

In individual sports, golf and tennis have their majors but is it fair to say that the Giro is to the TdF as the US Open is to Wimbledon or the Masters? I don't think so. The Tour de France is by far the pinnacle of cycling and any 10 other events combined still can't equal the value of winning one tour.

55/Rad
I get your point, but I don't necessarily think that TdF eclipses all other to the degree you suggest - but that is probably an individual perception, since I don't think that the Masters is the greatest Golf major either (I think the US Open and THE Open (!) are better). I don't think you can rank the outher Grand Tours so low. The Classics are a different ballgame altogether and certainly while I would put a win in the TdF over them on a personal level, I don't think they can be so easily discounted.
MacMan is offline  
Old 07-23-04, 08:36 AM
  #23  
Murrays
Mad Town Biker
 
Murrays's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 974
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Iron Chef
They are professional cyclist. What measure do you have to say the average Tour de France rider is greater than the guys I listed?
Sponsorship dollars I donít doubt they are all good riders, but Iím sure thereís not some rider with top 20 TdF talent packing his bags for RAGBRAI next week. If they have enough talent to be a contender in the TdF, they will be picked up by a big team unless there is some underlying reason (personality, donít like Europe, etc.)

There may be better riders than Lance now or in the past, but Lance has shown that nobody can beat him when he truly sets his sights on victory. The comparison to past champions makes for good debate, but unfortunately, thatís all it will ever be.

Just out of curiosity, are there any comparisons of times for similar stages in recent tours to 20-30 years ago? Of course equipment and nutrition have helped boost the speeds, but I wonder if Merckxí well known breaks would stay away today?

-murray
Murrays is offline  
Old 07-23-04, 08:39 AM
  #24  
55/Rad
Form*r Ho*rd*r
 
55/Rad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Portland, OR
Posts: 11,723

Bikes: Seven Axiom, Dave Moulton Fuso

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 9 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by MacMan
I get your point, but I don't necessarily think that TdF eclipses all other to the degree you suggest - but that is probably an individual perception, since I don't think that the Masters is the greatest Golf major either (I think the US Open and THE Open (!) are better). I don't think you can rank the outher Grand Tours so low. The Classics are a different ballgame altogether and certainly while I would put a win in the TdF over them on a personal level, I don't think they can be so easily discounted.
MacMan - In my opinion, the US Open (golf) is on par with the Masters and the British and it comes down to a matter of personal preference. The French and US Open (tennis) is on par with Wimbledon...okay, strike that. But they are closer to being on-par with Wimbledon than anything is to the Tour.

That is my perception. A perception created here in the western part of the US by all the colorful, well rounded coverage and heritage I've been exposed to over my entire 44 year life. And since I am American, I know I am right dammit.

Now, anybody want to talk Futbol vs. Football?



55/Rad
__________________
55/Rad is offline  
Old 07-23-04, 08:49 AM
  #25  
MacMan
Sick ... again
 
MacMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Chicagoland
Posts: 1,577
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by 55/Rad

Now, anybody want to talk Futbol vs. Football?



55/Rad
No. How about Rugby vs. American Football ... ya bunch of pansies

As a complete aside, and not to start another debate, but which Grand Tour is regarded as the most physically demanding? Or are they all as brutal as each other. Some of those stages in the Giro this year seemed impossible ... but I haven't been able to watch the mountain stages in TdF this year so I don't know.
MacMan is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.