lechatmort

When I got my rim, hub and spokes from chain reaction cycles and laced them up, I could get it true at first, but as soon as I started increasing tension the rim went majorly out of true. After hours of trying to figure out what was going on it turned out that two spokes were about 5mm too long.

I got three new (cheapest sapim PG) spokes from the LBS today, replaced the two that were too long, and now tensioning went much better. I still discovered a spoke that was a few mm too long, though. After replacing that all seems to be fine.

I sent CRC an email and they're sending me four new spokes, which is awsome service on their part.

I can't help but wonder though, could the spokes somehow have stretched during seating?

Al1943

In your case I do not believe that the spokes stretched because there were only a few that were too long.
I have had Revolution spokes stretch under high tension, but they all stretched the same amount.

MNRon

I was taught, long ago, to check spoke length before starting a build. You can measure one or two and then compare them, but you should know their length first.

No, a spoke won't stretch an appreciable amount. (A little is possible, but it takes quite a bit of pressure...)

BCRider

If they remained stretched after you took them out of the wheel then that would suggest that somehow those spokes are not correctly made to produce the tough and spring like qualities needed. Soft or annealed steel will stretch like putty and stay that way. But spokes are supposed to be made from a wire that is correctly drawn and hardened to produce the tough and elastic like qualities needed by our wheels.

Mind you there is always the risk that someone put some of the wrong length spokes into a bin by accident and that you received them. The only way to know if you got some of the wrong size or some that were made from defective wire would be if you compared the lengths before the build started.

interested

Nah, spoke stretch under tension is around 0.5 mm. It is far more likely that someone at CRC placed some surplus spokes in the wrong spoke box. This is so common an error that it is recommended praxis to measure the spoke length of any batch of spokes before building the wheel.

--
Regards

khanom

Also, frankly, having one spoke too long is not going to affect truing or tensioning unless they are so long the nipple bottoms out on the threads. At which point you say "hey, that spoke is too long" and replace it. Generally what I do before a build is bunch the spokes up together and tap them on the bench, thread side down. If it's 5mm, it will be obvious.

To be perfectly honest and a little blunt, this smacks of user error even if you really did get a couple spokes the wrong length. No offense.

LarDasse74

I agree with most of the people who say it is not spoke stretch... To get a 2.0mm SS spoke to stretch 5mm you would have to put it under approx. 1000 kg of tension... which is almost definitely going to break the nipple or pull through the rim.

lechatmort

well yes I do realise I skipped step one in the wheelbuilding process

the spokes were indeed bottoming out, but I checked stuff like lacing pattern a hundred times before finally giving up and concluding that it must have been spoke length all along

Also, did anyone have problems with DT nipples? I've always used sapim, but these DT nipples seem to wear out really fast - I've had two wear their heads completely off and coming out with a loud bang already. Going to take a whole load of spare nipples on my tour to be safe

LarDasse74

This raises a red flag for me. I have only seen nipples fail once like this and it was someone using alloy nipples with a slightly different thread size than the spokes (he was trying to use alternating coloured nipples and didn't notice the size on the second box).

More recently a buddy was trying (on my advice) to try his hand at wheelbuilding and lace up a new rim w/new spokes, and the shop convinced him to use aluminum nipples... by the time I got my hands on the wheel about a quarter of them were galled or stripped. Aluminum nipples are a little easier to mess up than standard brass nipples.

lechatmort

they're brass nipples for sure
it's probably just because of having to start all over again due to the spoke size mismatch

khanom

Be sure you have the right size spoke wrench. A brass nipple on a new wheel is not going to be damaged unless you are doing it wrong.

I feel compelled to bring up this minor rant:

I think basic wheel building is something everyone should be familiar with, and it's great to experiment. But it's not like servicing a bottom bracket or upgrading your brakes. There is a lot of nuance and easily 99.9999 times out of 100 when someone does this for the first (or second or third) time, they don't get it right. When I was a mechanic I'd have lots of people come to me blaming the rim or the spokes or the phase of the moon, when in reality they just didn't know what they were doing. I'd say in 10 years as a mechanic and 30 years of biking, I have never met anyone who successfully built a wheel on the first few tries (if ever) to the standards an experienced wheel builder would consider only just acceptable.

Of course you can't learn if you don't try, and even if your wheel is not ideal it may well be worth it to give it a go. But it is important to recognize that you are not going to get the best wheel, and that means if you are spending a bunch of money on a nice rim and fancy spokes, it is not going to be cost-effective even if you don't account for the hours you spent fiddling.

Even a good wheel builder charges like $40-50 to build a wheel. That is the most ridiculous bargain evar. You get the benefit of years of experience and a guaranteed bomber wheel for a fraction of what the components cost. Even for me, and I've built maybe a thousand wheels (no idea really), if I want a wheel I can absolutely count on, it usually makes financial sense to have someone who does it every day build them for me.

Ok, end of rant... carry on.

furballi

An experienced builder will also check the condition of the rim before lacing. No sense wasting a few hours battling a rim that's not very round or one with a bad pinned joint. A top notch wheel builder is starving for work if he/she only charges $40/wheel.

mrrabbit 

I charge 24 for basic symetricals and 27 for asymetrical (most disc and rears...). I will likely raise the rates to 27/30 soon.

At +/- .002 in. tolerance, on-dish, 103-110 kgf for most, stress relieved and all...1 hours for fronts and 1.5 hours for rears, spoke calc and cutting included, are you suggesting I am not top notch?

=8-)

bjtesch

How long does a good builder usually take to build a wheel? The only time I've watched a LBS build a wheel was when we bought a frame from a shop in Austin (a Mercian in the late 1980's) and had them build it with the components we wanted. We also told them what we wanted in the wheels, they pulled the parts out and built the wheels right there. As I remember it took 30-45 min. to build each wheel. Assuming it takes 1.5 hours to build a pair of wheels, at $80, that's a labor rate of $53/hour. This seems a little low for a full service shop, but OK if a person is building them out of his home shop.

mrrabbit 

Home shop is my status of of now...

Trust me should I ever go brick and motar...you can bet my rates would probably jump into the 30-35 range. Plus I'd have to sell a lot of bread and butter too, i.e, tires, tubes, freewheels, cassettes, etc. Once you go brick and motar - welcome to the world of bread and butter.

I'm quite happy just having to deal with hubs, rims and spokes for now. The absence of rent is a big bonus as well...

=8-)

khanom

Rich Lesnik, who builds wheels for Rivendell, charges $40 for either front or back. Peter White is about the same. I don't think either is starving for work, and there is no question that they are both top notch.

I used to build wheels in about 45-60 minutes per, but I never believed in rushing. I would always check out the rim carefully, use spoke prep, do proper stress relieving, etc.

But there is no way I'm going to build a wheel as good as either of those two, and it would take me a lot longer to do it now... so why bother except for fun.

furballi

Shop rate is around $60 @ my location. Been building wheels since 1981. I don't make a living building wheels at this time, but I doubt that I could complete a wheel with +/-0.001" radial and axial tolerances in one hour. Perhaps it's old age.

desconhecido 

A wheel builder can charge less to build the wheel if a spoke sale is included. Checked with a couple local shops and when they build wheels they charge $1 to $1.50 for each spoke. At $1.50 per spoke you can charge about $20/wheel for building and make money, assuming it takes 45 minutes or so to build the wheel.

furballi

It takes about 30 seconds to lace one spoke...16 minutes to lace one 32 h wheel. That leaves about 44 minutes to tension, true, and dish the wheel. You'll run like a bat out of hell if you're going to true the wheel within 0.001" in 3/4 hour.

I do it right the first time. If I cannot cannot achieve 0.001" tolerance with a new wheel, then the wheel does not get my QC stamp.

mrrabbit 

It takes you 16 minutes to lace a wheel? My god man...what are you doing? Using each spoke as a mirror to comb your hair?

(Takes me 5-7 minutes on average...for basic 32H/36H 3X wheels...no scratches or accidents...)

You do realize don't you that most entry to mid-range quality rims extrusion inconsistency and defects alone make .001 tolerance - much less .002 - a rarity as opposed to the rule?

You'll find this even with quite a few Velocity B43's, H+Son FF, F30 and EEROs, Alex, KinLin and even lower end Mavix rims. And that's NOT including the joint seam.

...and then when you move on to clincher CNC sidewall carbon rims...don't get me started...

I've been building wheels of all kinds since 1984 - 2000+ and already past 140 for this year alone...me suspects you are boasting a little to impress. To be honest...it's really not necessary here.

=8-)

furballi

I've never had any problem achieving 0.001" tolerances even with the cheap Mavic Open Sport and Sun CR-18 wheel. But then I spend way more than 1 hour per wheel! Perhaps it's true that you don't get much quality with a $27 build.

All those in S Cal are welcome to drop by to inspect my work, free of charge. No need to boast since I have the goods to back up my claim. The pair of Open Sport on my R600 has seen about 3000 miles and should still run true to within +/-0.003".

mrrabbit 

I just built a pair of 700c CR-18s three weeks ago...without a pair of pliers wrapped in electrical tape to physically repair easily 20-30 wavy locations in the extrusion itself irregardless of spoke hole locations.... .001 in. would not have been possible.

I doubt you are misreading .01 as .001...that would be too obvious...

Are you lubricating the dial-indicator plunger? It can develop stickiness that's affects sensitivity if you don't and provide false readings in the wheelbuilder's favor? I'm assuming that your dial indicator uses a plunger/shaft that activates the dial readout like mine.

Other question...are you basing the .001 spoke to spoke or pairs of spokes to pairs of spokes, or for one complete rotation of the wheel?

I'll say it again from 20+ years of experience...with higher end rims....with all their QC...I have no doubt that you have a high success rate achieving .001 in. I've done it myself many times - did it with quite a few DeepV's up until Aug/Sept 2009 - often within 1.5 hours.

But with mid-range on down - it's a game of chance - and moreso the lower you go - and varies as well between manus. QC is a lot less - in the extrusion department, drilling department, sidewall finishing department, joint/seam department....across the board.

You are not going to achieve it with most KinLin 5ALMs due to the damage caused by hole punching just before the valve hole and the joint. You are not going to achieve it with the occasional Sun CR-18 that has a 2-3mm lateral flare out on one side of the joint because the ends weren't cut an exact 90 degrees before joining. Bending the exposed sidewall doesn't fix it cause the base of the sidewall will still retain the flare out.


If you had said, "often I can achieve .001 in. with the Open Sport, CR-18, (insert other entry-to-midrange rim model)", I would have taken your word for it.

But you used the words "I've never had any problem achieving .001..."

That alone tells me you are boasting a little.

=8-)

furballi

Moderately priced rims can have QC issue, but not significantly higher than their pricier counterparts. I had to return some Open Sport rims due to a 0.01" gap at the pinned joint. Key is not to built unless the rim is in good condition. This is a hobby, so I can afford to be picky about the hardware. Why waste my time with a rim that's going to be trouble down the road?

So yeah...I can always achieve 0.001" tolerances because I hand-inspect each rim prior to use. Garbage in, garbage out.

In addition to having a good dial indicator, one must also possess good metrology skills to consistently detect a 0.001" run-out. Bearing preload can affect the reading. The most accurate measurement is obtained by securing the wheel to the bike. The average truing jig lacks adequate clamping force to simulate the axle preload.

Another bonus to the 0.001" strategy is the ability to quickly detect when the rim goes into the non-elastic range. This permits the use of very high preload that's unique to that particular wheel.

0.001" tolerances apply axially and radially to one complete wheel revolution.

I bought four Open Sport rims from Performance. Two went back. Possible bad batch? CR-18 return rate is around 30% (worst among low-priced rims). CXP22 and A319 are generally okay straight from the factory.

Some wheel builders make extra $ by selling spokes, nipples, and rims on top of the labor. I only profit from the labor charge. I doubt that these "famous" wheel builders take the time to build the wheel to very high tolerances. Often the excuse is the quality of the rim. I'm sure they could achieve 0.001" tolerances if needed, but then they would need to spend 2-3 hours per wheel, turning a business into a $ losing hobby!

mrrabbit 

Quote:

Some wheel builders make extra $ by selling spokes, nipples, and rims on top of the labor. I only profit from the labor charge. I doubt that these "famous" wheel builders take the time to build the wheel to very high tolerances. Often the excuse is the quality of the rim. I'm sure they could achieve 0.001" tolerances if needed, but then they would need to spend 2-3 hours per wheel, turning a business into a $ losing hobby!


Same here...

If the wheel parts are all from my imported inventory - it's just a labor charge, my cost of parts without markup, and then $1.00 arbitrary markup when done to cover inflation on the next order of parts to be imported.

When I get an "awesome" deal on a part - I don't turn around and sell it to customer as though I paid the usual cost for it. I pass the savings on to them. Some folks think I'm crazy...but that's just me.

Also, just the other day I had to toss not 1, but six rims from inventory into the recycle bin. Not that they couldn't be trued properly or such...but simply because of instead of starting with a CNC sidewall thickness of 1.2mm/1.3mm on average and nothing less than 1.1mm...they were all the way down to 0.9mm. Sure, they could have been used for disc brake wheels - but what's to stop someone from deciding to convert to v-brakes? I just don't take chances - toss!


=8-)